So a white dragon blasts a party trying to cross a stream. Does the water freeze and how much? I would think it would but are there any rulings on breath weapons on water?
Magical effects like dragon breath don't always follow modern day knowledge of physics and logic.
However, the Fireball spell does set fire to unattended flammable objects, so I think that is enough of a precedent that a white dragon can flash-freeze a stream. Depends on the surrounding temperature how long it would last.
There is no official ruling on this to the best of my knowledge.
This comes up all the time. Comparing fireball starting a fire to a breath weapon freezing a stream is not apples to apples. You can burn a forest down with a single match, but you aren't going to freeze the ocean with a single ice cube.
For those to whom some sort of realism is important (and admittedly that may be a very, very few) freezing water is a hugely expensive energy effort. Water has a very high heat capacity, meaning it takes a lot of energy to move the temperature of water. Plus ice is actually a very good insulator once it forms. This is why ponds, lakes and oceans don't freeze solid.
So if you want your world to have some connection with real world physics, things like cones of cold or rays of frost or icy breath weapons might form a thin layer of ice on the surface of a calm pool, but it would have virtually no impact on moving water.
I posted a video link of a guy hurling about two gallons of liquid nitrogen into his backyard pool. Other than making a lot of mist, it pretty much had zero effect on the swimming pool.
By the way, white dragons have spell-like abilities to create ice in large quantities, so they don't need to rely on their breath weapon to freeze a stream.
Is there any rules on it
Is there any rules on it
Not that I am aware of.
nope, no rules for freezing with a breath... but as AD mentioned a dragon freezing moving water with a breath weapon attack is not very realistic... I might be able to buy a shallow already partially frozen pool of slush though....
the dragon (if old enough) could use its freezing fog to coat everything in the area of effect with a thin layer of ice (thouigh the stream would melt that quickly away from its surface) or its shape ice ability to cause already existing ice (at the streams edge perhaps) to spread over the streams surface.
So if you want your world to have some connection with real world physics
Real world physics and fantasy RPGs don't mix.
Real world physics and fantasy RPGs don't mix.
So if you want your world to have some connection with real world physics
OK, so fire doesn't burn in your fantasy worlds. Rocks don't fall. Wind doesn't blow. Gunpowder doesn't explode. The sun isn't hot.
Not sure how you manage a world where real world physics "don't mix" with your RPG world. How do your monsters and characters see? Without friction, how do they walk? Without ....
Oh hell... whatever.
Depends on the amount of water and the power of the Dragon and how you want to describe the action. Embrace the subjective.
Real world physics and fantasy RPGs don't mix.
So if you want your world to have some connection with real world physicsOK, so fire doesn't burn in your fantasy worlds. Rocks don't fall. Wind doesn't blow. Gunpowder doesn't explode. The sun isn't hot.
Not sure how you manage a world where real world physics "don't mix" with your RPG world. How do your monsters and characters see? Without friction, how do they walk? Without ....
Oh hell... whatever.
With real physics, a dragon would not have frost breath. The dragon could not fly. In fact, there would be no dragons.
Falling off a 100' cliff would mean almost certain death, not 10d6 damage. Any real survivors would be crippled for life if they didn't die later from wounds. Clerics could not heal them because there are no gods in the real world.
Wizards would work magic only by slight of hand at best. Bards would just be singers. A magic sword wouldn't be any different from a non-magical one. Paladins would be delusional serial killers.
In my campaign, fire burns because the fire spirits are hungry. Rocks only fall because the abyss below the Earth is pulling them down. Gunpowder as we know it indeed does not explode and the sun is only hot because it is a giant burning chariot wheel.
Hey now, tone it down just a bit. There a plenty of gods in the real world and let's not go attacking paladins again. The pathfinder rules rely on following certain aspects of physics and chemistry, though we ignore inconvenient ones for the sake of having fun. You can run your campaign how you want, just don't slay the rest of us for mixing science and fantasy.
I'm inclined to agree with you on the freezing though. Having a dragon freeze, at least partially, a stream with its breathe sounds appropriate.
While Adamantine Dragon is correct, both on there being a lack of rules backing it up AND it not being very realistic, I feel that this is one of those things that seem 'psuedorealistic' and cool enough to allow. I don't see an issue with allowing it.
Falling off a 100' cliff would mean almost certain death, not 10d6 damage. Any real survivors would be crippled for life if they didn't die later from wounds. Clerics could not heal them because there are no gods in the real world.
People fall from a lot higher than 100 feet and survive. Hell, a 100 foot drop is likely two broken legs, along with maybe an arm or some ribs. Not "dead or crippled for life".
And we have doctors to speed that process along.
In my campaign, fire burns because the fire spirits are hungry. Rocks only fall because the abyss below the Earth is pulling them down. Gunpowder as we know it indeed does not explode and the sun is only hot because it is a giant burning chariot wheel.
That's cool and shit but that's YOUR campaign, not the setting this game is based off of.
Ever hear of "like reality except where specified"? That's what kind of setting this is. Like reality, except where magic messes with things, allowing things like the physically impossible dragons to exist. You may notice that the spell to make things not fall downward any more is "Reverse Gravity" not "Abyssal Rejection" or whatever you'd call it to go along with your weird explanation.
People fall from a lot higher than 100 feet and survive. Hell, a 100 foot drop is likely two broken legs, along with maybe an arm or some ribs. Not "dead or crippled for life".
I should have been clear I was referring to real life as it was in the Middle Ages. Without modern medicine, such injuries were typically maiming if not life-threatening.
Real world physics and fantasy RPGs don't mix.
So if you want your world to have some connection with real world physicsOK, so fire doesn't burn in your fantasy worlds. Rocks don't fall. Wind doesn't blow. Gunpowder doesn't explode. The sun isn't hot.
Not sure how you manage a world where real world physics "don't mix" with your RPG world. How do your monsters and characters see? Without friction, how do they walk? Without ....
Oh hell... whatever.
So of corse every druid bursts into a huge explosion every time they wildshape into a smaller form, as matter which cannot be destroyed is instead converted into energy, right?
There was a hillarious thread on a newsgroup years ago pointing out how absurd things got when you tried to apply real world physics to D&D. One formula showed how an arrow fired from an enlarged bow into an antimagic field would either create a miles deep crater or tear away part of the atmosphere with the energy released by it's instant loss of mass. Of course that was offset by how unsurvivably cold the area would be due to loss of energy to create the mass to enlarge in the first place.
So of corse every druid bursts into a huge explosion every time they wildshape into a smaller form, as matter which cannot be destroyed is instead converted into energy, right?
There was a hillarious thread on a newsgroup years ago pointing out how absurd things got when you tried to apply real world physics to D&D. One formula showed how an arrow fired from an enlarged bow into an antimagic field would either create a miles deep crater or tear away part of the atmosphere with the energy released by it's instant loss of mass. Of course that was offset by how unsurvivably cold the area would be due to loss of energy to create the mass to enlarge in the first place.
Ever hear of "like reality except where specified"? That's what kind of setting this is. Like reality, except where magic messes with things, allowing things like the physically impossible dragons to exist. You may notice that the spell to make things not fall downward any more is "Reverse Gravity" not "Abyssal Rejection" or whatever you'd call it to go along with your weird explanation.
I didn't think I had to add every specific example of "except where magic specifically contradicts reality".
Edited to be less dickish.
Let's stay on topic :|
So of corse every druid bursts into a huge explosion every time they wildshape into a smaller form, as matter which cannot be destroyed is instead converted into energy, right?
There was a hillarious thread on a newsgroup years ago pointing out how absurd things got when you tried to apply real world physics to D&D. One formula showed how an arrow fired from an enlarged bow into an antimagic field would either create a miles deep crater or tear away part of the atmosphere with the energy released by it's instant loss of mass. Of course that was offset by how unsurvivably cold the area would be due to loss of energy to create the mass to enlarge in the first place.
Ever hear of "like reality except where specified"? That's what kind of setting this is. Like reality, except where magic messes with things, allowing things like the physically impossible dragons to exist. You may notice that the spell to make things not fall downward any more is "Reverse Gravity" not "Abyssal Rejection" or whatever you'd call it to go along with your weird explanation.I didn't think I had to add every specific example of "except where magic specifically contradicts reality".
Breath weapons being magic, there's no reason they couldn't flash freeze a river. Glad we agree. :)
look at it this way, anything that could flash freeze a river would certainly flash freeze a human... if a human can survive the breath blast, a river should be unaffected.
look at it this way, anything that could flash freeze a river would certainly flash freeze a human... if a human can survive the breath blast, a river should be unaffected.
In a similar thread in the past about damage caused by a magical effect I pointed out that the energy involved in the desired result would be enough to vaporize a humanoid outright, and as such it seemed unlikely that the effect would happen with a spell that did minimal damage to a humanoid.
But you know... logic vs magic... doesn't matter.
After all, dragons fly you know. So anything is possible. Anything at all.
Except physics.
look at it this way, anything that could flash freeze a river would certainly flash freeze a human... if a human can survive the breath blast, a river should be unaffected.
A 5d6 cold effect would flash freeze most humans.
Just not most adventurers.
Breath weapons being magic, there's no reason they couldn't flash freeze a river. Glad we agree. :)
The only problem I see with it is that breath weapons have an instantaneous duration, don't they?
I figured magical ice powers followed the same rules as magical fire powers (like Scorching Ray), they don't set things ablaze.
Seems more a flavor bit than anything, I don't see this coming into play as anything significant regardless of whether it's allowed or not.
Breath weapons being magic, there's no reason they couldn't flash freeze a river. Glad we agree. :)The only problem I see with it is that breath weapons have an instantaneous duration, don't they?
I figured magical ice powers followed the same rules as magical fire powers (like Scorching Ray), they don't set things ablaze.
Seems more a flavor bit than anything, I don't see this coming into play as anything significant regardless of whether it's allowed or not.
That makes sense as well.
For my part, I was thinking about if someone were unfortunate enough to fight a white dragon while within a pool of water (oddly enough I had this very situation three weeks ago), would it be different? The game doesn't really offer modifiers for environmental side effects. For example, I don't recall any rules for using electrical attacks on targets in water. So, sometimes a DM has to come up with ideas on the spot. I didn't think of this when I ran that encounter, but I wish that I had. Pass the reflex save, and not only half damage, but you're free of the ice. Fail and you'll need to break free, pull loose, or melt it. Even if it will melt in a couple rounds, that's a reasonable risk to assess if they don't think to get out of the water, I think.
Eh. I think the worst I'd do in that situation is have the waist deep or whatever water be difficult terrain x2 or summat. You move at 1/4 of your speed unless you have some kind of nullifier.