Goblin Squad Member
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So if you're familiar with the PFRPG, you'll know how a character's class (fighter, rogue, wizard, etc.) defines the number of skill points per level they recieve.
Now I know PFO is using an EVE-style skill system (which I love, btw), so has anything been mentioned or does anyone want to debate/discuss the idea of your class having an affect on the speed at which your skill points accrue?
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Goblin Squad Member
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So if you're familiar with the PFRPG, you'll know how a character's class (fighter, rogue, wizard, etc.) defines the number of skill points per level they recieve.
Now I know PFO is using an EVE-style skill system (which I love, btw), so has anything been mentioned or does anyone want to debate/discuss the idea of your class having an affect on the speed at which your skill points accrue?
There's no class to affect your skill speed. The skills you train will unlock an archetype that models toward a class from the PnP, but you don't select a class.
Your attributes (STR, DEX, CON, INT, WIS, CHA) will be what affects the speed of skill training on different skills.
I believe it's also been mentioned that there isn't likely to be skills you train to make your training go faster, since it would just be time everyone will almost have to spend upfront training nothing practical to get the speed bonus.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I do hope that our 'skill trees' have some lee-way. Making, say, a Paladin with a touch of stealth to them, or a diplomatic Wizard, or Spellcraft-using Fighter who likes to keep a Staff of Fire at the ready adds some spice to a character, gives them a feeling of unique-ness.
Perhaps the Skill trees required to follow to earn the cap-stone ability won't encompass certain 'everyman' skills?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Nope! Not by the sound of it! If you look into some of the discussions on Capstones you can see more. And Mr. Dancey has stated "There are no classes." We will get the opportunity to earn merit badges that focus on a class, and if you focus all of your equipped skills/feats/whatever on a class you can get a dedication/focus perk.
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Goblin Squad Member
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1. Your skill speed is determined by your attributes:
It's extremely important to understand that in Pathfinder Online your attributes aren't mechanical bonuses. They are throttle settings on the speed that you train skills. And skills don't have mechanical benefits, they are per-requisites for earning achievements which usually but not always will give your character a mechanical advantage.
A character with a high Strength in Pathfinder Online does not get a mechanical advantage to hitting things or inflicting damage or encumbrance. That character will train skills that are linked to Strength more quickly than a character with a lower Strength attribute.
In turn, that means the high Strength character will qualify to earn certain merit badges that relate to things strong characters do, and as those merit badges are earned, the character will gain abilities which provide bonuses to things related to using Strength.
On creation a character with a Strength of 18 and a character with a Strength of 3 are equivalent. But very quickly that STR18 character will likely start earning mechanical advantages that the STR3 character won't, or if it does, will require much more time to earn.
Your character is as much a reflection of what that character has done as what your character's attributes are.
This is a big difference between the online game and the tabletop game.
So basically, you will get better at arcane casting faster if you have a high Int.
2. Skills that make skills go up are bad:
There was a big problem in EVE. There were skills that you trained to speed up the rate that you trained skills. Training all of them through their various permutations to max level took about 6 months. You could reduce that if you had high attributes in the areas that affected the time it took to train those skills.
So there were a LOT of bizarrely built PCs in EVE. The respec system cleared that up after the learning skills were finally removed.
The other problem in EVE was the in intuitive mapping between attributes, skills, Nd the stuff you would want to do in the game. So people faced a lot of situations where the choices they made as new players were really sub-optimal through ignorance.
Respecting alleviated that problem too.
Hopefully we will avoid the latter, and we'll never do the former.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Your attributes (STR, DEX, CON, INT, WIS, CHA) will be what affects the speed of skill training on different skills.I believe it's also been mentioned that there isn't likely to be skills you train to make your training go faster, since it would just be time everyone will almost have to spend upfront training nothing practical to get the speed bonus.
Hmm well the RPG has certain stat requirements in cases of spell casting. Like a PC with an intelligence of 10 will never be able to cast more than the simplest spells as a wizard. So I wonder if that means in this game there is no such requirement.
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Goblin Squad Member
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"On creation a character with a Strength of 18 and a character with a Strength of 3 are equivalent. But very quickly that STR18 character will likely start earning mechanical advantages that the STR3 character won't, or if it does, will require much more time to earn."
It may be both, where there are minimum thresholds for some kinds of training, and for other ones a throttle mechanism.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think they should have classes available, as templates for new player characters.
I think a lot of the people starting out, expecially when this game goes live would be more comfortable picking barbarian, bard, cleric, druid, fighter, monk, paladin, ranger, rogue, sorceror or wizard because I think many people drawn to this game will have somewhat of an understanding of the playstyle each entails, then to assign attributes at random and hope they get somethign that trains skills they want.
Since its presumed that a new character will come with some basic skills and "newbie" gear to get started, as opposed to standing around doing nothing for a few days till they train there first few skills this would allow them to put together "kits" for each template of starter gear, stats and skills so a new player can jump right in the action.
Pick a fighter get con, str as primary stats, 1h weapon skill, shield skill and a few ranks of light (prereq for medium) and medium armor with a rusty longsword, dryrot wooden shield, patchwork scale mail armor, etc.
Cleric, get wisdom as primary, str & con as secondary stats, weapon skill (ideally 1 skill in you dieties prefered weapon), shield skill, light armor skill, and divine casting skill with dieties prefered weapon, leather armor, and a holy symbol with cure/cause minor wounds or if they implement them 1 rank in your channel ability.
Barbarian str, con primary, dex secondary. 2h weapon, light armor, stealth/survial skills.
Wizard, int primary, staff, spellbook with jolt, acid or some other dps level 0 spell, a Big Blue Dress.
ranger dex, bow, leather, etc
so on and such forth.
Give them the attributes best suited for the skillsets most exemplified by the class and a few starting skills & weapons so they can start playing the day they sign up.
Even nicer would be a "road map" of available skills that are emphasized for each template, i.e. the skills that benefit primarily from the defaul attributes of each class.
And for the "experts" that figure they can do better, give them the custom option, let them pick there own stats, a dps ability, a level of defense (better dps = lesser defense ability at start) and let them go.
After you start you can train anything you want, but this gives new players a good base starting point and attributes that have a chance of matching they're playstyle.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What I wanna know about the skill system, and say you go away for two weeks, can you just keep training one skill up to say level 3 (arbitrary choice, I have no idea of the rate), thrn catch up on abilities up to that point? Or will that skill stop at level 1 and I'll need to queue something else until I can do the achievements for level 1?
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Goblin Squad Member
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So if you're familiar with the PFRPG, you'll know how a character's class (fighter, rogue, wizard, etc.) defines the number of skill points per level they recieve.
Now I know PFO is using an EVE-style skill system (which I love, btw), so has anything been mentioned or does anyone want to debate/discuss the idea of your class having an affect on the speed at which your skill points accrue?
Skills, Feats, and Classes from the PnP are all broken down into skill training.
I'm guessing that the archetypes that have high sp/level in the PnP will be seeing their merit badges include training more skills tied to PnP skills. And a Fighter would see more skills that tie to PnP feats in their badge requirements.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What I wanna know about the skill system, and say you go away for two weeks, can you just keep training one skill up to say level 3 (arbitrary choice, I have no idea of the rate), thrn catch up on abilities up to that point? Or will that skill stop at level 1 and I'll need to queue something else until I can do the achievements for level 1?
Thats actually a interesting and useful question that I don't believe I've seen asked or answered yet.
I'm impressed, you have shocked and amazed me with something I did not expect to find today.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What I wanna know about the skill system, and say you go away for two weeks, can you just keep training one skill up to say level 3 (arbitrary choice, I have no idea of the rate), thrn catch up on abilities up to that point? Or will that skill stop at level 1 and I'll need to queue something else until I can do the achievements for level 1?Thats actually a interesting and useful question that I don't believe I've seen asked or answered yet.
I'm impressed, you have shocked and amazed me with something I did not expect to find today.
It has been discussed recently, though nothing solid has been put out. I personally think it should allow a person to queue up skills for a long period of time in advance. There are people that want to play this game that could go for months without internet access, and to deny them advancement when they can keep their account paid for is completely unfair.
The best we have is a vague statement that long term skill planning is unlikely.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Summersnow
The only reason the devs have been using the term 'classes' (the typically just use 'archetype' actually), is that they want new players to be able to jump right in, just as you suggest!
Since sticking to the skills in a single archetype will grant a character a 'dedication' bonus, I expect the skill tree will be clearly marked with sections of 'general' skills, 'ranger' skills, 'fighter' skills, etc.
As far as pre-seeding a new character's skills and equipment, that's a very interesting idea I hadn't thought about. That's an interesting idea to start characters out with.
On the other hand, I think it would be a great introduction to the 'character progression tree' if a new player started out with a club and some cloth armor, was told to start training some generic attack/feat/ability/skill like "powerful melee attack" that takes 1 minute to complete. At that point, the tutorial/tutor/game hints will give the player more information on the different archetypes, how character progression works (sticking to a single archetype and gaining dedication bonuses vs 'multi-classing'), etc.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yeah, I really like the idea of canned training choices for characters at the start of their creation. Maybe a few hours/a days worth of queued skills to give the player a clue about how to progress and train.
I'm sure the majority of people here will want to customise, but having a canned option is a great idea.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My understanding since the first blogs has been that the "skills" trained offline works something like a moving level cap. It opens up new training options but does not give any direct(*) advantages.
Mechanical bonuses and new actions are gained though merit badges that require a combination of skill levels and in-game accomplishments (and sometimes alignment, faction, settlement features etc etc).
@OP: I expect that each archetype will require the same number of skills trained so that players will level up at the same rate independent of arcehtype (though slower if they dip into extra skills like crafting).
@jameow: I see no reason why you couldn't keep training a single skill to infinity - after all thats's what you pay $$ for. You just won't be able to get the advanced merit badges before the basic ones, and they will typically require more than just that one skill. The ability to control skill training from outside the game (facebook-like or phone app) has been suggested but no hard info given.
(*) some badges may require only skills, but I expect those to the few and very basic.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My understanding since the first blogs has been that the "skills" trained offline works something like a moving level cap. It opens up new training options but does not give any direct(*) advantages.
Mechanical bonuses and new actions are gained though merit badges that require a combination of skill levels and in-game accomplishments (and sometimes alignment, faction, settlement features etc etc).@OP: I expect that each archetype will require the same number of skills trained so that players will level up at the same rate independent of arcehtype (though slower if they dip into extra skills like crafting).
@jameow: I see no reason why you couldn't keep training a single skill to infinity - after all thats's what you pay $$ for. You just won't be able to get the advanced merit badges before the basic ones, and they will typically require more than just that one skill. The ability to control skill training from outside the game (facebook-like or phone app) has been suggested but no hard info given.
(*) some badges may require only skills, but I expect those to the few and very basic.
So then the question becomes, how does the skill training queue work? D you just set an amount of time, or do you set a level for it to work to?
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Goblin Squad Member
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@OP: I expect that each archetype will require the same number of skills trained so that players will level up at the same rate independent of arcehtype (though slower if they dip into extra skills like crafting).
I wouldn't bet on that, GW has expressed no desire to have 1:1 balance. I would expect some classes to train faster earlier, and slower later, and some slower earlier and faster later, depending on what skills are pre-req's. Also training time is determined by your attributes, so the key to fast training is proper attributes for your path.
@jameow: I see no reason why you couldn't keep training a single skill to infinity - after all thats's what you pay $$ for. You just won't be able to get the advanced merit badges before the basic ones, and they will typically require more than just that one skill. The ability to control skill training from outside the game (facebook-like or phone app) has been suggested but no hard info given.
There is no reason to let a skill train to infinty the curve has to be asymptotic otherwise people will get super-powerful, GW has already said there will be a finite time to learn everything, but it won't be reasonably obtainable, and they can add more skills much faster than people can train them. You will most likely train a skill a number of levels, then be done. I would expect something very similar to EVE's system if not identical, their system works great.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So then the question becomes, how does the skill training queue work? D you just set an amount of time, or do you set a level for it to work to?
truth: we don't know yet. I'm sure GW have ideas but I'm also sure they are listening to our suggestions.
worst case: no queue and you train one skill until you change. nobody wants this.
default case: queue of chunks (time or level designated), starts at top and progresses downward, if finished keeps training on the last selected.
improved case: select a number of skills to train simultaneously with a weighting between them (ie train all archetype skills evenly, or split any way you want). Barring that, adding a 'loop' function to the queue will give essentially the same result.
micromanaged min-maxing will (and should) give you each tiny reward a little bit earlier, but casuals shouldn't need to change their skill training setup except if they want to change direction.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In my head, the skills are all shown with a little icon in a menu, with the classes running down the side and when you click on a class it highlights the skills in it. Which allows for overlap.
The icons would be arranged into some sort of order maybe something like weapons, combat, magic, crafting, harvesting, adventuring and exploring, survival etc. with all the icons in a nice little row. Click on them for details.
Another tab for abilities, giving requirements etc. and descriptions.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Since there are a couple of EVE folks on the dev team.... lol
In EVE I think you could finally queue a couple skills to train in succession. Once the clock was done on one the next started immediately.
This is nice for times when your skill is a quickie or when it's scheduled to complete at a time you're not in game (sleep, school, work, zombies, or aliens). I wouldn't want it to go haywire and allow more than three skills queued, but it made life a lot more convienient in the EVE world.
I'm excited to see how the system fleshes out in PFO.
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Goblin Squad Member
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EVE has a queue that you can set skills in up to 24 hours in advance. If you have 5 skills that each take 7.5 hours you can slot them all. This is because there is no upper limit to the queue, however all training in it must start within 24 hours. E.g. You can set as many skills as you want to fill it up to 23 hours and 59 minutes, then put a 50 day long skill at the end.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am wondering if it is going to be spreadsheet fun like eve was...
I know Ryan has characterized the complexity and learning curve associated with Eve as a generally undesirable thing. I expect he wants a lot more breadth, less total depth, and a lot less hidden synergies. I believe his goal is to make it fairly easy for players to figure out how to get their character from where it is to where they want it to be.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am wondering if it is going to be spreadsheet fun like eve was (and still is but less daunting). So we can rename the game to PFSO, Pathfinder Spreadsheet Online.
I am also wondering how soon after release we will see an evemon like tool for pathfinder.
If you want to dominate the markets while sitting in town doing nothing risky, expect some OOG spread sheet fun.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you want to dominate the markets while sitting in town doing nothing risky, expect some OOG spread sheet fun.I am wondering if it is going to be spreadsheet fun like eve was (and still is but less daunting). So we can rename the game to PFSO, Pathfinder Spreadsheet Online.
I am also wondering how soon after release we will see an evemon like tool for pathfinder.
I take exception to that! Attempting to dominate markets can be incredibly risky! Especially when you are attempting to dominate my markets...
I WILL RUIN YOU!
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Goblin Squad Member
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EVE has a queue that you can set skills in up to 24 hours in advance. If you have 5 skills that each take 7.5 hours you can slot them all. This is because there is no upper limit to the queue, however all training in it must start within 24 hours. E.g. You can set as many skills as you want to fill it up to 23 hours and 59 minutes, then put a 50 day long skill at the end.
That's right, thanks, was having a brainfart on that.
@Kakafika: Word! TvP (Trade vs. Player) is just as, if not more, cutthroat than PvP anyday.