Goblin Squad Member
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Thanks to Nihimon for finding all the current info on combat (which is Here
I think a few things are still a bit unclear about how it works, so I have some questions!
1) So we get these points every 6 seconds, does that mean combat is turn based? sort of NWN style?
2) How does targetting work? Is it like WoW/CoH etc where you tab to a target and your abilities will all be aimed at them, or will it be more like NWN/UO where you select an ability and then you select a target for it? (I don't think it's that because it doesn't sound like it would work with the point system)
Or is it more like RaiderZ/TERA where you essentially point at your target and your abilities will home in on it? (So even if they move, you've still targetted them)
Or like Star Trek Online where you have a hybrid system of tab targets or aim and shoot as is your personal preference?
Or some unique other combination?
3) What about surrounding trgets, collateral damage etc? Is there any? If I have one goblin targetted and fire an arrow an ogre jumps in front of the golbin, will it ignore the Ogre, pass right through it and only damage the goblin, or will it hit the ogre because the ogre got in the way?
If I swing a blade in a wide arc and I have three goblins in front of me, will it hit all of them in the arc, or will it only hit the one I have selected?
4) When it comes to siege weapons and the like, does this mean buildings will be selectable to target, or are they a "find your range and try to aim at it" weapon? Or can you target PARTS of a building? If my army targets a single point in a wall with several catepaults, will it bring down the entire wall or just the section? What happens to any troops on it? or near it?
5) When it comes to gaining new abilities, does each level unlock all abilities at the level like a tier, or is it more like NWN where you select one or two abilities from a selection each level? Will all Level 20 swordsmen have all the same abilities at that level, or will there be different options?
6) With this in game daily use of some abilities, what are we talking here? something like 3 uses a day, or more like 15. Am I only going to get 2 fireballs in a 4 hour rl period (plus 2 more from a refresh)? That sounds to me like all magical classes would all have to be well trained in weapon use, because magic is only a backup, but that's just my impression.
7) I believe there's going to be mounted combat, is this just going to be "your abilities from a horse" like UO, or more like "the horse is a weapon, you will have to use your mounted combat abilities while on a horse" or a mixture? (your weapon abilities will be replaced with mounted ones, your other abilities such as spells and special abilities will work if they have the "mounted" attribute.
I know a lot of this probably isn't set in stone yet, but what's the vision here?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I like something like the RaiderZ combat system, I like being able to dodge, swing and hit everything in the arc, when a boar charges at me I like to be actually knocked over and trampled (ok, I don't LIKE to be, but you get what I mean)
Oh I should have also added
8) Will there be actions like in RaiderZ where Monsters can pick you up and crush you, or hurl you to the ground, or swallow you whole?
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Goblin Squad Member
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1. No
2. Unknown, but we know 100% there will be no twitch(fine aiming). Expect the standard tab/click targeting.
3. Unknown, don't expect that level of realism. The arrow is traveling 250-300fps, the ogre would have to already be in your sight moving very quickly for the arrow to hit. Some want friendly fire, I don't. I would at lest expect AoE attacks to hit all 'enemy' flagged entities in range. Don't expect the level of weapon control you seem to be imagining, you will have different attacks associated with the weapon, one may be a forward melee range cone-AOE, expect to know if your attack will hit other targets.
4. Unknown
5. You gain abilities by training skills and unlocking badges. If we take Ryan verbatim(which devs love you to do), when you get a merit badge "you will likely also get a new ability associated with that merit badge"(Jan 4th blog). Don't expet a 'pick one' system.
6. Magic users aren't limited to spells, they will be using wands, staves and other magical items much like a fighter uses a weapon.
7. unknown
8. probably not, maybe for some more iconic bosses when you fail.
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Goblin Squad Member
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3. Unknown, don't expect that level of realism. The arrow is traveling 250-300fps, the ogre would have to already be in your sight moving very quickly for the arrow to hit. Some want friendly fire, I don't. I would at lest expect AoE attacks to hit all 'enemy' flagged entities in range. Don't expect the level of weapon control you seem to be imagining, you will have different attacks associated with the weapon, one may be a forward melee range cone-AOE, expect to know if your attack will hit other targets.
This is how it works in Guild Wars 2, so it is viable. Honestly I don't like tab to target and "unless it's an aoe it only hits thetarget" style attacks. My sword had to pass through two other creatures to hit that one, yet they're unharmed.
Also, you saying " The ogre would have to be already in line of sight" yes, but it could have been NEXT to the goblin. Will the ogre in front cut my line of sight on the goblin? In most targetting games it doesn't.
Also it could lead to some awkward situations in battles. There's no point to a shield wall if your enemy can just tab to your support (mages, archers, healers etc) and and hit them with ranged attacks that pass right through your front line troops.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Jameow, from the Thornkeep book+
"Skills: As in EVE Online, your character in Pathfinder Online can train in a wide variety of skills. However, unlike in EVE Online, skills in Pathfinder Online have no direct effects. Each is simply a prerequisite for another area of character development. Skills qualify your character to access all sorts of things ranging from the kind of equipment the character can use, to the types of items that can be crafted, to how the character can access special powers and magical spells. However, simply training in a skill does not award those benefits directly.
Merit Badges: Merit badges are a combination of measuring the progression of your character (like first-person shooters in Battlefield 3) and recognizing that the character has done something notable (like the achievements in World of Warcraft). Most merit badges require that you first finish training in a specific skill or set of skills, or that you achieve some extraordinary feat while performing these skills. Some also require you to do something in-game, such as harvesting a certain amount of resources, slaying a certain monster, or exploring a certain portion of the map. When you’ve completed the requirements, you receive the merit badge, and will sometimes also receive a new ability associated with that badge.
Abilities: Abilities represent the class features and feats from the Pathfinder RPG, as well as a variety of development opportunities to support a wide range of character types for the MMO. As a character gains abilities, that character becomes more capable. Abilities give characters more variety in the types of armor they can wear, weapons they can use, items they can make, mounts they can ride, and spells they can cast. They also link to things like being sneaky, healing, finding traps, detecting tracks, finding resources that can be harvested, and buying and selling items at the in-game markets. Taken together, attributes, skills, merit badges, and abilities describe your character’s development. Add in the character’s race, alignment, wealth, gear, and social connections, and you have a very complex matrix of potential character types.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Valkenr's answers are correct to the best of my knowledge, but I would like to add a couple of things for you to consider.
1. The combat won't be turn-based in the sense that you'll have to wait for everyone else to enter their actions for that turn. However, I believe it's likely that the client and server will only communicate every 6 seconds, and that your actions during the previous 6-second "turn" will all be resolved on the server at the same instant. In essence, your two or three attacks will look like they happened in real-time on your client, but will actually all occur at the same time on the server.
2. There are probably a dozen or more threads where combat has been discussed, and each probably has a few gems from the devs that clarify things. I wish I'd included this one for you. From What will combat be like?:
The target/ability bar has really been done to death and i think a lot of people are looking for a new feel.I don't disagree with that. I think there's a huge design space to be explored. We just won't be exploring the one where you aim with player skill and twitch in response to stimuli.
3. With respect to collateral damage, it's enough of a can of worms just dealing with the possibility of someone trying to grief you by taking damage from you when you use AoE Abilities. I would be surprised if they want to dump that same can of worms all over the single-target Abilities.
4. When it comes to bringing down walls, it's important to realize that the devs will have to animate it and they'll probably only want to animate it once for the whole wall, rather than developing different animations for each section of wall.
5. This is actually pretty clearly spelled out in Your Pathfinder Online Character.
In the tabletop Pathfinder RPG, you earn the benefits of a level all at once as you hit an experience point threshold. In Pathfinder Online, we've turned the system on its head: instead of using experience points as a prerequisite for improving in a skill, improving skills are part of the prerequisite for gaining new abilities. Your character must earn all the things needed to qualify for a new "level," and then you're rewarded with a special bonus.
So, instead of gaining a new level and that opening up a set of new Abilities, you'll gain the new Abilities and then when you've gained enough of the right ones, you'll be recognized as having earned a new "level".
6. There's a lot we don't know, but it's clear the devs are thinking that most magic users will be using Staffs or Wands for a large number of their attacks. That said, I'm sure they realize that people who want to play Wizards want to cast spells, and they're not going to design a game where that doesn't really happen, or only happens infrequently.
7. I am not aware of any official announcement that there will be Mounted Combat, so my response here is pure speculation. Based on discussions about Unit Combat, I would n't be surprised if the devs changed our Ability Bar when we were mounted, giving us access to Abilities that are specific for Mounted Combat.
8. It's always a bad idea to take away a Player's control over their Character. Whether that's with animations that you can't break out of, or Crowd Control spells, or Stun-locking Rogues. Every time the Character ceases to response to Player input, the Player gets irritated. I personally would like to experience as little of that as possible. That said, I have no idea what the devs have planned, and as long as it's done in a way that's internally consistent with the logic of the game world, I'm not going to get too upset.
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Goblin Squad Member
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1. The combat won't be turn-based in the sense that you'll have to wait for everyone else to enter their actions for that turn. However, I believe it's likely that the client and server will only communicate every 6 seconds, and that your actions during the previous 6-second "turn" will all be resolved on the server at the same instant. In essence, your two or three attacks will look like they happened in real-time on your client, but will actually all occur at the same time on the server.
This is sort of what I meant by "turn based", yes :)
3. With respect to collateral damage, it's enough of a can of worms just dealing with the possibility of someone trying to grief you by taking damage from you when you use AoE Abilities. I would be surprised if they want to dump that same can of worms all over the single-target Abilities.
Since there is presumable some sort of targeting, it could be contextual. If you are targeting a goblin, it is likely you are also fighting any other aggressive npcs near it. If you are attacking a group of players, there are flags already, so you're likely attacking anyone else who is also attacking you or assisting your opponents. Note this is for targeted abilities rather than area effect ones.
4. When it comes to bringing down walls, it's important to realize that the devs will have to animate it and they'll probably only want to animate it once for the whole wall, rather than developing different animations for each section of wall.
This could be achieved just by breaking the wall into sections like it is in strategy games like age of empires. You don't need to animate each part, just make the area BEING animated smaller and repeated. For buildings and the like it could be facing based, which presumably applies to Characters already (backstabbing etc)
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Goblin Squad Member
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1. The combat won't be turn-based in the sense that you'll have to wait for everyone else to enter their actions for that turn. However, I believe it's likely that the client and server will only communicate every 6 seconds, and that your actions during the previous 6-second "turn" will all be resolved on the server at the same instant. In essence, your two or three attacks will look like they happened in real-time on your client, but will actually all occur at the same time on the server.
I would hate to see a 6 second delay. The way I read things is that you will refresh the bar ever 6 seconds, you can spend the whole bar, or none of the bar, but in 6 seconds it will refresh to full. The most skilled players will map out combos that use every bit of the bar, and others will button mash, not taking advantage of the bar.
I see it as a limitation for using powerful abilities in succession, the really strong abilities will probably take up greater than half the bar, and you will have to take weaker abilities to maximize your output.
Nothing Ryan or Lee suggested led me to believe that there would be a 6 second communication refresh, that is horrible by modern standards and would cripple combat pace.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Also when it comes to taking away player control from the players being always a bad idea- not so. A stun, a poison, a confusion or fear type thing have been part of games, computer and tabletop, for decades.
I find it far more ridiculous when a dragon with claws larger than your body scratches you that instead of being hurled across the room, you GRUNT!
Knockdowns and the like, far from detracting from the experience, add to it. I think this system of points per six seconds lends itself to some interesting options for this sort of system.
My own suggestion would be that when something happens, such as getting knocked down or picked up, it provides you with options based on your abilities, such as rolling out of the way, stabbing or biting their hand to get them to drop you, or blinking/ teleporting out of the way. Sort of "saving rolls"
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would hate to see a 6 second delay.
I don't think you'll see a 6-second delay. I expect it will "feel" like real-time combat.
Also when it comes to taking away player control from the players being always a bad idea- not so. A stun, a poison, a confusion or fear type thing have been part of games, computer and tabletop, for decades.
True. Hold Person has been around probably from the very beginning. And it's perfectly fine on the tabletop where the DM is likely to welcome having one less enemy to worry about running during the fight. But when the enemy is another player, it gets very irritating very quickly, especially if it's the kind of thing that can literally keep you out of action for most of the fight.
There's a lot of room for the devs to do it right though, and you're absolutely right that Knockbacks and short-duration stuns that don't occur too often are perfectly fine and help with immersion. (( Note, I used to call it "realism" but that's too loaded, so now I refer to it as "immersion" - it's just the ida that the game world makes sense. ))
So, again, I won't object to being picked up by a giant or knocked back or even stunned as long is it doesn't make the game "no fun" for me, and as long as it's all internally consistent with the logic of the game world.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Just read this interesting article on DPS (mostly to referring to mmorpgs). Seems what's been said about combat in pathfinder is already taking on board some of these points: Different damage types (piercing, slash etc); significant differences between fighters and magic-users?; and perhaps not being so fussy about balancing everything.
In all the focus on tanks/aggro and healing, I had neglected to think about damage as much:
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Goblin Squad Member
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For me, the key to stuns and crowd control is that keeping another character out of battle should reduce your own effectiveness in that battle by roughly their ability. Obviously, it's never going to be this linear, but in essence what I'm talking about is that a level 15 Crowd Control expert should be able to keep 3 level 5 attackers stunned, or a single level 15 attacker stunned, at the cost of not being able to do anything else. And, of course, during all of this time, it should be a back and forth struggle between the Controller and their victim(s), so that the victims aren't just sitting there not doing anything.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think a lot of things should still be MORE focused on pve, a giant can pick you up in their fit, a human can not. A dragon can eat you up and spit you out, a half Orc can't.
You could have some, like wrestling, grappling,locked swords and martial arts throwing over the shoulder and the like for pvp (and knockdowns) but with all of them there can be ability based work around a (such as tumbling to get back on your feet, being much harder in plate, but much harder to know you over like that in the first place)
And I'm all for pvp and pve not bring balanced as such, where it makes sense. A wizard may be able to incinerate you in a second, but chop his head off and he's dead just as quickly. ( not a suggestion for actual moves :p)
There should just be enough variety and use in abilities that it over all balances out, just not necessarily in damage output.
Sure, that class hits harder, but this one is faster/more evasive/better at controlling a fight/bypasses more defenses etc etc
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I disagree- Every fork of character should be particularly effective against at least one other, and particularly ineffective against at least one other.
If there is a stun/daze/other CC option, it should be particularly effective against at least one other (able to handle more than their fair share) and particularly ineffective against at least one other (unable to handle close to their fair share).
You might be able to keep two platemail fighters fascinated, but only until the monk can get close enough to punch your face off.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I disagree- Every fork of character should be particularly effective against at least one other, and particularly ineffective against at least one other.
If there is a stun/daze/other CC option, it should be particularly effective against at least one other (able to handle more than their fair share) and particularly ineffective against at least one other (unable to handle close to their fair share).
You might be able to keep two platemail fighters fascinated, but only until the monk can get close enough to punch your face off.
I would say rather that different types of weapon should be useful in different ways. Maces and the like are best against plate, because that is why they were designed, fencing style precision piercing weapons good at getting criticals by finding vulnerable spots, slashing would do the same but to a different degree, hitting harder, less criticals, depending in if its light or heavy it might be more like a piercing weapon or more like a mace, a middle ground as it were.
A heavy crossbow is great for punching through plate, and maybe in lighter armor could pass right through the target, but at the same time is slow, and a faster weapon would be more effective against lighter armor, as you'd hit as hard with less loading time.
Where stuns and the like come into play, I would expect more against styles or armor you are less effective against. Blade too light and can't effectively counter that platemail? Hit them on the head with the flat or the pummel, send them staggering to make an opening to exploit. Or knock their leg out from under them. Turn that plated knight into a tortoise on its back.
I like it when various styles and abilities have disadvantages, but other advantages (such as sacrificing defence for less encumbrance, more balance and speed)
Hammers are hard and slow, great for metal armors that make your opponent hard to damage, but they're also reasonable slow (varying obviously) and a big warhamner night crush a chest plate like a can, but against some one fast and maneuverable in light armor, that won't help if you can't hit them (of course if you DO, they're probably dead or badly wounded)
It's also why I'd like to see stances, allowing you to switch from an aggressive stance to a defensive one and use different tactics against someone who's style and equipment might be good against you, so it's never a simple game of rock, paper scissors.
But if you want to stick to a neutral mode and play differently you can just take a bit of both and it'll be less complicated, just not using your style to its full advantage.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Gah, lost the reply to this when the site went down. There was some discussion on the kickstarter site about what sort of direct game information might be in some of the future updates to really grow interest in potential backers. One obvious area is of course: Combat.
I've always liked the basic premise from an old game called International Karate + where you have high-mid-low punch or kick attacks. So each move has different counters and same moves negate each other: There's surprising depth to it. A simple system but similar in essence to this recently caught my attention, about the upcoming mmo: Age Of Wushu:
Age of Wushu's combat is probably the best in any MMORPG. There is a simple rock-paper-scissors in place; block beats attack, attack beats feint, feint beats block. In practice, it's far more complex.
This was described in more detail in: Sirlin.net: Rock, Paper, Scissors in Strategy Games
is the Japanese word reading, as in reading the mind of the opponent. If you can condition your enemy to act in a certain way, you can then use his own instincts against him (a concept from the martial art of Judo). Paramount in the design of competitive games is the guarantee to the player that if he knows what his enemy will do, there is some way to counter it.
What happens, though, when your enemy knows that you know what he will do? He needs a way to counter you. He's said to be on another level than you, or another "Yomi Layer." You knew what he would do (yomi), but he knew that you knew (Yomi Layer 2). What happens when you know that he knows that you know what he will do (Yomi Layer 3)? You'll need a way to counter his counter. And what happens when he knows that you know....
So combat would fit that bill as a genuine topic of excitement in an update, except to remind a previous statement on the subject:
There are all sorts of combat potentials in a sandbox MMO and each needs to be considered when building the system.
People will fight monsters as a group
People will fight monsters as multiple groups (i.e. PvEvPvE)
People will fight Many vs. One
People will fight in asymmetric group sizes
People will fight One vs. One
People will fight in Large Groups (i.e. armies)
People will fight other people who are trying to just run away without engaging
People will fight from ambush or stealth and will try to make a quick kill rather than engage in a toe-to-toe brawl
Some people will be making ranged, not melee attacksetc. etc. etc.
So when you ask "what will the combat system be like", in a sandbox game, I have to fall back on saying that until we're further along in development we won't have any firm answers.
It's evidently a very complex area of the game as well as a very exciting one and an area that has a (quote: Ryan Dancey) "huge design space to be explored".
But definitely an update if done well, could spark interest, overall?
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Goblin Squad Member
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For me, the key to stuns and crowd control is that keeping another character out of battle should reduce your own effectiveness in that battle by roughly their ability. Obviously, it's never going to be this linear, but in essence what I'm talking about is that a level 15 Crowd Control expert should be able to keep 3 level 5 attackers stunned, or a single level 15 attacker stunned, at the cost of not being able to do anything else. And, of course, during all of this time, it should be a back and forth struggle between the Controller and their victim(s), so that the victims aren't just sitting there not doing anything.
IMO I consider the idea of a level setup of this magnitude as very harmful to PVP, of the sort that generally makes people completely stay out of PVP until top level. IMO the rough power (not counting gear), a top skilled player, should be at best double the rough power of an entry level PVP character (Entry level being the era in which one typically does start PVPing, reaching entry level should be within 2 weeks tops of starting the game).
When you are looking at playing as one of the 10 characters that a top level character takes out of the fight, well now you are playing a character who's role is to be a moderate speedbump not an actual participant.
Personally I would actually preffer something to the oposite effect, where CC is something that low levels have a chance to pull off on a higher level, incapacitating both for teh duration. Essentially making that serve as a bit of an "equalizer". (not to say that high levels shouldn't do it better than low levels, IE able to hold them longer, higher success chance etc... But designs where high level characters, incapacitate large groups of low levels, that makes it just plain not fun to play as a low level character, and creates the "Don't bother joining PVP until a year or 2 after you start" style of game.
Gah, lost the reply to this when the site went down. There was some discussion on the kickstarter site about what sort of direct game information might be in some of the future updates to really grow interest in potential backers. One obvious area is of course: Combat.
I've always liked the basic premise from an old game called International Karate + where you have high-mid-low punch or kick attacks. So each move has different counters and same moves negate each other: There's surprising depth to it. A simple system but similar in essence to this recently caught my attention, about the upcoming mmo: Age Of Wushu:
Age of Wushu's combat is probably the best in any MMORPG. There is a simple rock-paper-scissors in place; block beats attack, attack beats feint, feint beats block. In practice, it's far more complex.This was described in more detail in: Sirlin.net: Rock, Paper, Scissors in Strategy Games
...is the Japanese word reading, as in reading the mind of the opponent. If you can condition your enemy to act in a certain way, you can then use his own instincts against him (a concept from the martial art of Judo). Paramount in the design of competitive games is the guarantee to the player that if he knows what his enemy will do, there is some way to counter it.
What happens, though, when your enemy knows that you know what he will do? He needs a way to counter you. He's said to be on another level than you, or another "Yomi Layer." You knew what he would do (yomi), but he knew that you knew (Yomi Layer 2). What happens when you know that he knows that you know what he will do (Yomi Layer 3)? You'll need a way to counter his counter. And what
The rock paper scissors combat style was done by matrix online... it was weird, almost turn based, and very cool to watch but otherwise really was not that impressed with it, made things far to slow in my opinion.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I like the sound of the stamina system, the types of weapons that might damage different armour types differently (slash, pierce, crush). What I'm also considering is the rock-paper-scissors in some form - in addition - in melee?
1. Stamina - effectiveness
2. Damage type - matching
3. RPS - out-thinking (battle of wits!)
That's the general idea to make combat more interesting.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Hotkey doesn't necessarily mean tab targeting cycle combat we've become used to (and I too am utterly bored with it), we just don't know yet. I know it's not done and not finalized, but it would be nice to know what sort of system they're looking at, all we have so far is this points every six seconds, which could be great, or tedious depending on what that actually means for combat,
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Goblin Squad Member
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Honestly this is sounding heavily like a hotkey based MMO.
Though persistence is a massive boon for a game there should be something beyond it as well. I'm burned out on hotkey based, tab target combat, find it dull to the point it bores me to tears.
I was concerned that the Pathfinder MMO wouldn't be something I was interested in with the kickstarter and was looking for answers before I donated, there was very little detail given for the direction of combat and action.
Sadly I won't be supporting the game financially. I do hope that it does well and Pathfinder thrives on the new medium. Thank you Jameow for asking these critical questions.
I am with you that hot-key, tab-target combat has been done to death. As the quote above indicates, the combat is intended to fulfill a heck of a lot of different contexts - this means it's difficult to focus on one aspect of design in any detail until a certain stage of development, as quoted above, but it does mean it could be more interesting than what I've already played in other games: Personally creating a more level playing field with lower power curve and more randomness of what conditions your build is experiencing - IS - a good direction for PfO imo, even with tab-target/hot-key mix. Because that means a ton of decisions and learning by experience.
Secondly, for mmorpgs, I still think combat can take some inspiration from PnP and be more interesting with less actiony emphasis - but the tab-target has been a half-way house: Neither actiony enough or decision-oriented enough in past mmorpgs imo: It's worked and been fun, but "not again" applies I think.
Finally as a sandbox game, the combat is one component - I don't intend to always need a combat fix every session of PfO - variety of things to do being the longer-lasting direction.
Nonetheless, combat is an interesting topic to potentially update on - if possible at this early stage.