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in a debate in another thread it came to my attention that perfect self automatically disqualifies you for racial feats do to your type being changed to outsider. now i know how rarely a character reaches level twenty, but this still bugs the heck outta me.
Generally speaking, most DMs will houserule/use the RAI to rule these things out. For instance, you can't be a dragon to be a dragon disciple in D&D/PF, and the dragon disciple grants you the dragon subtype, thus disqualifying you.
Same goes for the above concern with the monk. The usual solution is to say that all previous feats still apply. You are a "humanoid outsider."
Just another quirk of the RAW. The key to remember is that rules exists so that you can play the game and have fun. If the rules contradict each other, or do silly things, just rule it out or change it.
"sigh" i know, still seems like a kinda cruel oversight though, maybe if i FAQ it we might get some errata.
For instance, you can't be a dragon to be a dragon disciple in D&D/PF, and the dragon disciple grants you the dragon subtype, thus disqualifying you.
I don't see where being a dragon disciple gives you the dragon subtype...? Maybe this is an old 3.5e holdover that Pathfinder got rid of?
Further, I don't see a subtype for a Dragon, I only see the Dragon Type...
Dragon
A dragon is a reptile-like creature, usually winged, with magical or unusual abilities. A dragon has the following features.
d12 Hit Die.
Base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice (fast progression).
Good Fortitude, Reflex, and Will saves.
Skill points equal to 6 + Int modifier (minimum 1) per Hit Die. The following are class skills for dragons: Appraise, Bluff, Climb, Craft, Diplomacy, Fly, Heal, Intimidate, Knowledge (all), Linguistics, Perception, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Stealth, Survival, Swim, and Use Magic Device.Traits: A dragon possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature's entry).
Darkvision 60 feet and low-light vision.
Immunity to magic sleep effects and paralysis effects.
Proficient with its natural weapons only unless humanoid in form (or capable of assuming humanoid form), in which case proficient with all simple weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
Proficient with no armor.
Dragons breathe, eat, and sleep.
I only wish my dragon disciple got all that, lol.
Do these feats actually stop applying even taking a strict RAW reading? My understanding is that the general listing is Prerequisite: Elf or Dwarf or Human or Halfling. Do they ever also specify type: Humanoid? Aside from changing one's type to Outsider, upon achieving Perfect Self does one suddenly become NOT a dwarf or elf, etc?
well outsiders normally wouldn't have those as subtypes, though personally i think you make a good point. it's difficult to say.
As an aside, the ARG race building system allows for multiple types; it isn't a huge stretch to see a 20th level monk being "Outsider(native)/Humanoid(Human, or Elf, Dwarf, etc.)" upon attaining their transformation...
If memory serves, changing your type doesn't change your subtypes (though you may gain one or more), so an Elf monk goes from being Humanoid (Elf) to Outsider (Elf), so he still qualifies for anything that affects an elf.
As an aside, the ARG race building system allows for multiple types; it isn't a huge stretch to see a 20th level monk being "Outsider(native)/Humanoid(Human, or Elf, Dwarf, etc.)" upon attaining their transformation...
where did it state that?
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Also, Perfect Self doesn't actually change the Monk's type in this way:
At 20th level, a monk becomes a magical creature. He is forevermore treated as an outsider rather than as a humanoid (or whatever the monk's creature type was) for the purpose of spells and magical effects.
Note that he is not treated as an Outsider for all purposes, nor does he gain the normal traits of the Outsider type, like martial and simple weapon proficiency or 60-ft. Darkvision.
In the same way, he doesn't count as a not-Dwarf or not-Human for the purpose of feat prerequisites. That would only be the case if Perfect Self specifically said so.
As a general rule, when you're interpreting RAW, it's important to keep in mind that the rules do only what they say they do and nothing else, even when they might seem to imply other things.
I hope this clears things up!
Also, Perfect Self doesn't actually change the Monk's type in this way:
At 20th level, a monk becomes a magical creature. He is forevermore treated as an outsider rather than as a humanoid (or whatever the monk's creature type was) for the purpose of spells and magical effects.Note that he is not treated as an Outsider for all purposes, nor does he gain the normal traits of the Outsider type, like martial and simple weapon proficiency or 60-ft. Darkvision.
In the same way, he doesn't count as a not-Dwarf or not-Human for the purpose of feat prerequisites. That would only be the case if Perfect Self specifically said so.
As a general rule, when you're interpreting RAW, it's important to keep in mind that the rules do only what they say they do and nothing else, even when they might seem to imply other things.
I hope this clears things up!
so feats are safe though admittedly the wording "rather than" still sounds annoyingly restrictive.
As an aside, the ARG race building system allows for multiple types; it isn't a huge stretch to see a 20th level monk being "Outsider(native)/Humanoid(Human, or Elf, Dwarf, etc.)" upon attaining their transformation...where did it state that?
Go look at the race building system. Having more than one type is explicitly allowed, provided you pay for the RP cost for the multiple types. No, I don't have a page number for you.
Technically, 3.5 stated (I'd have to look up where) that if you lost the prerequisites for a feat or prestige class, you lose all benefits of it, unless it has a specific ex-## notation. Looking at both 3.5 & PF Dragon Disciple, yeah the “Dragon Apotheosis” ability went away. Most type-altering templates (*gain, 3.5) were errata'd to apply the augmented-X subtype where X was the type the creature was before, & held over all subtypes. Also, Monster Manual 3 had a couple of goblinoids of the Monstrous Humanoid type, & a sidebar stated that they were still subject to effects (like Favored Enemy {goblinoid} & Bane {goblinoid}) that applied to their subtype specifically. I see no reason why a character should suffer the detriments of this rule & not have the benefits (& most of the DMs I know agree). I haven't seen the PF rulings for this but a similar setup seems reasonable. An enlightened Dwarf doesn't stop being a Dwarf when he reaches enlightenment, he's just a bit more detached from the world.
Go look at the race building system. Having more than one type is explicitly allowed, provided you pay for the RP cost for the multiple types. No, I don't have a page number for you.As an aside, the ARG race building system allows for multiple types; it isn't a huge stretch to see a 20th level monk being "Outsider(native)/Humanoid(Human, or Elf, Dwarf, etc.)" upon attaining their transformation...where did it state that?
from reading it says you pick "A" type. the only special mention of RP restrictions is you being limited to which ONE you can choose based on starting RP. not to mention this little rule
Creature Types
Each creature has one type, which broadly defines its
abilities. Some creatures also have one or more subtypes,
as described on pages 310–314. A creature cannot violate
the rules of its subtype without a special ability or quality
to explain the difference—templates can often change a
creature’s type drastically.
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so feats are safe though admittedly the wording "rather than" still sounds annoyingly restrictive.Also, Perfect Self doesn't actually change the Monk's type in this way:
At 20th level, a monk becomes a magical creature. He is forevermore treated as an outsider rather than as a humanoid (or whatever the monk's creature type was) for the purpose of spells and magical effects.Note that he is not treated as an Outsider for all purposes, nor does he gain the normal traits of the Outsider type, like martial and simple weapon proficiency or 60-ft. Darkvision.
In the same way, he doesn't count as a not-Dwarf or not-Human for the purpose of feat prerequisites. That would only be the case if Perfect Self specifically said so.
As a general rule, when you're interpreting RAW, it's important to keep in mind that the rules do only what they say they do and nothing else, even when they might seem to imply other things.
I hope this clears things up!
That's true. For example, under RAW, a 20th level monk could no longer be a valid target for an enlarge person spell, since they're no longer a humanoid for the purpose of spell effects.
I think the idea is that at 20th level, this is likely to be more of a benefit than a drawback. The 20th level monk will presumably be running around with 20th level casters, who should have plenty of options for working around the drawbacks. The monk's enemies, on the other hand, are likely to be less flexible and less prepared.
20th level casters still have first level slots and Enlarge Person is the most enduring first level spell on the wizard list. Even at 19th level it's likely to be in the "before we kick down the door" list if it hasn't been permanencied, and at 20th level it still is for fighters, barbarians, maguses, paladins, and in fact any non-druid strength build except high level clerics and oracles that feel the duration trade off on Righteous Might is worth it. Except monks from archetypes that don't swap the capstone.
You could substitute Polymorph Any Object, but that's kind of permanent and sometimes you do want to be medium for social situations or to avoid squeezing. You can't use reduce person to temporarily get around the drawbacks because that, too, is humanoid only.
there is also one of my favorite spells, paragon surge. in fact it's a spell that can be made permanent in my games (non stackable). would hate to miss out on that.
Not going to quote everyone who corrected me, but yes, I realized later that I was thinking of 3.5's stuff, not Pathfinder's.
I just got the Pathfinder rules about...2 months ago? Still not fully in command of the rule system.
Again though, RAI should always trump RAW in my opinion. Because RAW can be very, very silly if you read it word for word. And having fun should trump RAI, as long as everyone is having fun. For instance, I don't use XP in my campaigns. Instead I hand out a level when they complete a mission/dungeon/quest/boss/etc. Everyone has fun, no one complains, and it is a lot easier.
Not going to quote everyone who corrected me, but yes, I realized later that I was thinking of 3.5's stuff, not Pathfinder's.
I just got the Pathfinder rules about...2 months ago? Still not fully in command of the rule system.
Again though, RAI should always trump RAW in my opinion. Because RAW can be very, very silly if you read it word for word. And having fun should trump RAI, as long as everyone is having fun. For instance, I don't use XP in my campaigns. Instead I hand out a level when they complete a mission/dungeon/quest/boss/etc. Everyone has fun, no one complains, and it is a lot easier.
it's all cool, it was i think a year ago for me, not always an easy transition. i also hand out levels like that kudos.
I noticed a problem with monk, It's starts under monk heading 'monk' and then goes all the way down ending with '.' you see it? it's right there!
I noticed a problem with monk, It's starts under monk heading 'monk' and then goes all the way down ending with '.' you see it? it's right there!
"gasp" i see it now.