Goblin Squad Member
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Is there going to be a dueling system in game?
I know that there's no reason two people couldn't spar if they chose to anyway, but thinking about it, if two people just want to practice their combat skills (which could be quite important, given the environment) it would be nice if they could do so without having to go through the process of dying/taking alignment hits for a practice fight.
So I was thinking something like when you duel, if your hp hits 0 it just flags as "*name* yields" and they get 1hp back, so then they can heal up and you don't get those situations where people randomly invite you to duel and kill you because you accidentally accepted or flag you as a murderer/put a bounty on you when then invited you to spar with them in the first place.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I really hope that there is practice swords and practice armor. Donning them gives you set stats and a selection of set abilities. AKA a lvl 1 fighter and a level 20 fighter will both have 500 health, 50 attack strength and access to the same selection of abilities.
While wearing practice armor you can only harm other people in practice armor. This would be a GREAT way for a level 20 PVP instructors to train level 1 pupils without it being such a no contest fight that they learn almost nothing.
Sometime far after release I would like to see player built arenas that can hold:
Practice battles in practice armor.
Real to-the-death gladiatorial combat.
Jousting.
Foot/Horse/Chariot races.
Public executions.
Trade bazaars.
Hosting events in these arenas should effect the morale of the settlement where they are built. Some of these events (gladiator combat and public executions) should effect it's alignment.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That's a good idea too :) I like it!
The only thing with that is you can't use it to learn how to use new abilities or new weapons... also how does it handle magic? A practice spellbook or something?I still think it would be great for tournaments and stuff :)
You would use practice wands/staves/spellbooks. They would probably mimick fatal spells in a non fatal fashion. For instance your fireball would be replaced with "dazing blast" and shoot purple mist rather than fire. But be relatively the same functionally.
Oh another major upside to this system, it would allow people to try various abilities and combat styles there characters don't have from level 0 in all classes on. Kind of a big deal before you make a 2.5 year training investment.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I thought they were doing dueling, as a way for both sides to agree to no PvP consequences. But they are not including non-lethal damage.
I am personally a fan of SWG's incap system. Where you can defeat someone, and they still get up, you either have to do a killing blow, or incap them 3 times in a row.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You get some leeway between 0 HP and death in PFRPG (your Con in negative HP), and though the hit point system isn't the same in PFO, I could still see them giving you an incapacitation window based on your Constitution.
Dropping someone to unconsciousness would leave them knocked out for a minute after which they return to 1 HP. While they're unconscious, you could:
(1) Coup-de-grace to finish them off, after which you could loot a random item from the portion of their inventory which is lootable.
(2) Look at their lootable inventory and select an item to loot (but you can't coup-de-grace them after, and they get a "crawl back home" option which takes them to a safe bind point so you can't immediately attack them again).
(3) Perform magical healing or a heal skill ability on them to get them up to positive HP immediately.
People wanting to spar could simply use the 3rd option... and the 2nd one would be more profitable for bandits (with lesser alignment hits) while also being less painful to recover from for the ones they mug.
(...but The Empyrean Order may still find you and kick your criminal butt!)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would like an unconsciousness system, good for when you don't WANT to kill someone, or you accidentally hit them. Or great for highwaymen that don't want to murder you!
You may find this topic pretty interesting. It's ancient but if I remember right most the ideas are still relevant.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ryan started a new thread some time back about this.
If there's an unconsciousness point between 0 HP and death, that opens further options for player interaction, as I outlined above. Not every bandit must necessarily be a murderer as well. People can spar with normal damage but try to stop short of killing each other, as with combat training or tournaments. It would just be part of the normal combat system, with a multiple-choice resolution once someone is defeated. If people want to use it to remake Fight Club, that's just one way to use the system.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Dueling is pretty important IMO, how else are we supposed to practice PvP? How are guilds supposed to train for these all imprtant battles that will decide their fates?
It's not immersion breaking, it's a part of combta training. Not only that, but the Pathfinder game itself has rules for subdual combat. In the PnP game you announce subdual mode and there are rules for it, we are talking about a very simple system.
The claim that a Magic user can't do a subdual fireball makes no sense. Who's to say a mage can't throw a less potent fireball if she wants to? A pitcher that throws 100mph can throw batting practice you know.
One big vote for subdual combat right here.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The claim that a Magic user can't do a subdual fireball makes no sense. Who's to say a mage can't throw a less potent fireball if she wants to? A pitcher that throws 100mph can throw batting practice you know.
They have to take a metamagic feat for that. It's called merciful spell, I think. Doesn't change the spell level.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Wow, sorry but I saw like 7 excuses there and not a single good reason. If it's a mehcanical/alignment issue please come out and say it.Ryan started a new thread some time back about this.
I thought some of his points have merit. Especially the point about most people won't use it. I almost never accepted random duel invites in most games. People who asked for them generally were super high levels looking for easy kills to stroke thier egos I guess.
Reading this makes me really want to push the idea of practice armor though. Practice armor can address all of those issues.
1. Fatal abilities can be substited for ones that a logically non-lethal like my example of a fireball like ability that shoots purple mist called "dazing blast."
2. It doesn't require an invitation mechanic. Two (or more) people just suit up and go at it. If Awesome dude doesn't run around with practice gear in his inventory all the time and make people aware of it, people won't constantly invite him to spar with them. If he does... well then obviously he really enjoys sparring.
3. Given you cannot inflict real harm on other players in practice gear, there is no reason to require it to drain resources.
4. Obviously it would not be worth your time and effort to make a non-lethal version of every ability in the game. Just a few that capture some iconic fighting styles. The full range of every ability will only be found in real combat. So having practice armor doesn't cheapen that.
5. It equalizes opponents so it certainly will see a lot of use. Newb training academies would make heavy use of it, as would most military clans. I know I would make heavy use of it to train our recruits in basic combat and basic group tactics, to keep out veterans sharp and constantly improving, and to establish a level playing field on which to base our military tryouts.
6. Sociopaths will be FAR less attracted to a system that levels the playing field for everyone.
I think reading those solutions you can see where this becomes less a tool of ego stroking kiddies and more of a tool for organizations like EVE-Univercity and NEW Academy. I would urge you to consider putting in melee, magic, and ranged practice armor on or soon after release. It will provide players a way to decide what combat styles they enjoy, we can use it to help bring those who come in after us up to speed.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The main reason I brought the topic up was for training purposes, not duels for sport. Actually it was reading the Empyrean Order thread that brought it to my mind, thinking about them training their new recruits in military orders. That's going to be very painful if you're constantly breaking eachother's equipment and killing eahcother. In a REAL fight, if you're opponent is good, you won't get much of an opportunity to learn much, you'll be too busy trying to survive and reacting.
So I like Andius's idea just as much, I think it would require a lot of training weapons to cover different styles of weaponry. If you're workign with an internal logic to combat, a sword isn't used like a halberd or a staff, and a bladed or double bladed staff is used differently to all of them.
I know that eventually I'll be taking part in SOME PVP, but it'll never be my focus (at least not the combat side of it) so I'm going to need to do some sparring with people who know what they're doing. The last thing we need is alignment/reputation hits and constant replacement of equipment for PRACTICING with.
As for the first point in the post of why no dueling. I can think of PLENTY of reasons why you'd want a non lethal fireball. Most of them involve not wanting to KILL your target, funnily enough. I've also read plenty of stories where duels are used for training purposes, even in magic. Sometimes it's not the spell that's non lethal, sometimes it's a layer of shields, break all the shields of your opponent and you win. That sort of thing, but it's still a duelling system.
I do see the point with rage though, that one's a bit awkward.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I do see the point with rage though, that one's a bit awkward.
The purpose of the barbarian is to flip out and kill people.
-- RealUltimateAnger.netI think a specific duelling system runs into:
'Dr. Cat's Stamp Collecting Dilemma'
"Lots of people might like stamp collecting in your virtual world. But those who do will never play with those who like other features. Should you have stamp collecting in your world?" We know that there are a wide range of features that people find enjoyable in online worlds. We also know that some of these features are in conflict with one another. Given the above, we don't yet know if it is possible to have a successful world that incorporates all the features, or whether the design must choose to exclude some of them in order to keep the players happy."
Practice weapons and armour still run into the development time opportunity cost. Maybe they could put up a poll with duelling mixed in with a bunch of other possible features they could spend time on, and see if it's more highly rated than they expect; if there were a simple yes or no question asking if people wanted it, then the 'yes' would likely have a majority, but if it were compared to time spent on making character appearance more detailed, I'm pretty sure it would lose.
That's why I suggested a possible duelling system that is more of a side effect of regular combat resolution. Killing would still be possible, but bandits could rob without murdering, and people could spar without stealing or killing.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That's why I suggested a possible duelling system that is more of a side effect of regular combat resolution. Killing would still be possible, but bandits could rob without murdering, and people could spar without stealing or killing.
I agree that mercy mode needs to be in at launch no matter what. I would far rather see it implemented than any practice combat mechanic because anyone who regularly takes part in PVP is going to encounter the need for it, and almost everyone will be taking part in PVP on at least on occasional basis.
Only having the option to kill/loot encourages bad behavior. There needs to be a way to stop your target from fighting back/running short of just killing them. There needs to be mechanics in game that encourage bandits to simply rough up and than rob a bit from their victims rather than killing them and looting their body. This mechanic will make non-lethal sparring between friends possible as well most likely.
I think that releasing practice armor and weapons soon after is a really good idea though. I know in Darkfall it was a constant frustration for me that I had some really talented players who could instruct me, but they had ridiculously powerful characters with a wide arrange of abilities I didn't have any kind of access to. Eventually, if you want veterans to impart more than a fragment of their knowledge to new members of the community, this kind of option will be a requirement. I think the secondary purpose of allowing people to try various combat styles makes it well worth the time very early on.
Bare minimum I would like to see ranged, magic, and melee practice armor by the time early enrollment rolls around. By that time there will be a wide enough power gap to really make that time investment worthwhile. They can expand with more abilities and things like cleric-like, bard-like, and rogue-like practice gear far later on.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think they can get around a "mercy mode" simply by making the deathblow against a player a conscious choice (like in EVE). You'd have to specifically target to kill. Maybe there could be a coup-de-grace command that isn't bound to your regular attacks. Or a pop-up that says "You're really going to take the penalties for this? Are you really this much of a jerk?"
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think they can get around a "mercy mode" simply by making the deathblow against a player a conscious choice (like in EVE). You'd have to specifically target to kill. Maybe there could be a coup-de-grace command that isn't bound to your regular attacks. Or a pop-up that says "You're really going to take the penalties for this? Are you really this much of a jerk?"
But what incentive does that give for a bandit to rob someone and let them live rather than just killing them and taking their stuff? The rob mechanic allows them to take something without killing you, which is nice if you are just a random wanderer out exploring and you get beset upon by bandits.
I know in Mortal Online when I was out searching for random plant life to test it's alchemical properties, I got tired of getting killed and going back to my body to find nothing taken. Generally people did this so they could loot you to make sure you had nothing valuable on you. When they saw all I had was some fruits, some herbs, and some grains... they didn't want it. They were looking for gold, spell agents, bandages, and weaponry.
A rob mechanic would seriously cut down on that annoying and immersion breaking behavior.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There's no incentive if they care not for their alignment/reputation. But they wouldn't care anyway if killing was the goal. Simply giving a much less harsh penalty to the attacker if they show mercy could be enough. The victim would be helpless for 30 sec or a minute which would be far less inconvenient than running back to the corpse. Then you get back up with 25% or 50% of your health perhaps. That gives the assailant a chance to grab something and run (or decide to kill you).
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think that if the standard behavior when attacking a player is that they drop unconscious first, and then you have to take an additional action to actually kill them, then that's really all that would be needed to support Duels. I don't know if that's what they have in mind, though.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I guess my first post covered most of the problems that are being brought up again. I'll try to clarify a bit.
Dropping someone to unconsciousness would leave them knocked out for a minute after which they return to 1 HP. While they're unconscious, you could:
(1) Kill - Coup-de-grace to finish them off, after which you could loot 1 random item from the portion of their inventory which is lootable.
(2) Rob - Look at their lootable inventory and select an item to loot (but you can't coup-de-grace them after, and they get a "crawl back home" option which takes them to a safe bind point so you can't immediately attack them again).
(3) Help - Perform magical healing or a heal skill ability on them to get them up to positive HP immediately.
(4) - Leave them alone for a minute, letting them recover to 1 HP on their own.
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That covers murder, banditry, and sparring outcomes. Killing your target (1) is a crappy way to be a bandit, since you get worse alignment repercussions and a random item, but if you rob them (2), they will get away, so that's not very effective assassination. If you're just wanting to spar, you help them up (3), and if you're just looking to immobilize the target for a while (4) you can do that too.
Potential problems:
(2) 'Rob' could be abused as a mode of quick transport back home. You could only go one place with that, and you'd need to trust the person to take what you ask them to, but the potential is there. Maybe "crawl away" just sends them to the nearest safe place, rather than to a bind point? It only needs to be far enough to keep the bandit from being able to attack them again after the mugging.
(4) Keeping them 'pinned' by knocking them unconscious and then letting them lie there, only to whack them again when they're able to get up would be a new type of griefing. Of course, if they use that time to hurl insults involving hate speech and sexual assault, screenshot and report that. It might also be good to give "crawl away" as an option after a minute when they're back at 1 HP, which they could use in place of "stand up" if necessary.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Keovar, I think you should have to kill them first before you can rob them. Although I think the victim should be able to trade with their attacker while they are unconscious, to allow for negotiations. It would be really nice if there were an in-game mechanic that understood that Accepting a Trade was equivalent to granting Mercy, so that if the Attacker or his Allies ended up killing the victim even after the trade, they would suffer even greater alignment/reputation hits.
And the victim should definitely be able to Release themselves as if they were dead while they are unconscious.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I disagree that robbing should prevent killing them. That doesn't make sense. I like the idea of negotiating while you're "knocked unconscious."
I do see the potential for griefing if someone keeps waiting for you to get up and smacking you down again, though. Perhaps the second time you attack them after knocking them down automatically kills the victim and gives you an even worse hit to alignment or sends a message to the gods (DMs).
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Goblin Squad Member
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Alright let me take a minute to very clearly explain what I'm after so everyone is on the same page.
The Problem: The problem is this. In most Open World PVP games when you are beset upon by bandits they kill you and loot your corpse. This is because they can only loot you once you die.
In Darkfall and Mortal Online there is a mercy mode you go into where you die, where you just lay there and can't do anything, giving your attack the option to finish you off, or let you live. They still kill you in these games because a quick gank or final blow will give them the ability to quickly loot you and move on.
This is really odd behavior. In real life if someone wants to rob you, most of the time they will hold you at the point of a weapon while they wear a mask, or knock you out. They won't just kill you, because most humans have reservations about killing other humans.
In game this causes the frustration of dying, and having to run back to recover your body. Sometimes from a pretty long way off. Many times you actually have nothing valuable on you, but they didn't know that before they killed you. They were just checking for valuables.
While many soldiers and political figures like myself would rather die than give up their items peacefully. A lot of traders and explorers simply want to minimize their losses. For them a small loss is better than a big one, and they don't have to worry about pictures being posted all of the forums of "The Empyrean Order leader surrenders to bandits!"
The Solution: There needs to be a way for bandits to loot people without actually killing them. Some kind of rob or surrender mechanic would work fine. Anything that allows them the same, or better access to that player's loot than if they player had died.
I'm fine with anything that accomplishes this goal.
The main reason I brought the topic up was for training purposes, not duels for sport.I'm with you. There must be a mechanic for practicing PvP.
Agree completely. Adding wholescale, open PVP with no mechanic to even learn to defend yourself is a recipe for disaster.
And hey, I think we all agreed with each other for once! First time for everything.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The Solution: There needs to be a way for bandits to loot people without actually killing them. Some kind of rob or surrender mechanic would work fine. Anything that allows them the same, or better access to that player's loot than if they player had died.
I'm fine with anything that accomplishes this goal.
I agree and think the proper solution is to allow players to Trade while they're at the mercy of their attacker. I believe this would count as "better access to the player's loot".
I also think this solution, of having an Incapacitated state prior to death, makes it possible to practice PvP and to Duel.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The Solution: There needs to be a way for bandits to loot people without actually killing them. Some kind of rob or surrender mechanic would work fine. Anything that allows them the same, or better access to that player's loot than if they player had died.
I'm fine with anything that accomplishes this goal.
I agree and think the proper solution is to allow players to Trade while they're at the mercy of their attacker. I believe this would count as "better access to the player's loot".
I also think this solution, of having an Incapacitated state prior to death, makes it possible to practice PvP and to Duel.
As long as the bandit can see as much of the loot as they could if they were dead that would count for better access. Otherwise they will probably assume they are hiding something.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't think Bandits will be able to see loot on a dead player character. My understanding is that the killer gets only a few random items from the victim, without being able to choose which.
From To Live and Die in the River Kingdoms:
However, if another player finds your husk before you do, they'll be able to loot it. They won't recover everything that you had in your inventory—just a random selection—but the rest of your inventory will be destroyed and removed from the game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't think Bandits will be able to see loot on a dead player character. My understanding is that the killer gets only a few random items from the victim, without being able to choose which.
From To Live and Die in the River Kingdoms:
However, if another player finds your husk before you do, they'll be able to loot it. They won't recover everything that you had in your inventory—just a random selection—but the rest of your inventory will be destroyed and removed from the game.
Hmm, does this mean that you couldn't permit someone else to grab your stuff for you? Say a guild or party member if you can't get there? Or perhaps husk dragging like in vanguard? (Permission based to prevent exploiting)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Not what I was expecting when I looked at this topic.
There does need to be a way to do combat training in a non-lethal manner. A period where the opponent is bleeding out and can be stabilized is more then enough to facilitate this.
Now when I expect was something about formal duels for some legitimate reason.
Basically, what I would like to see is Dueling integrated with the contract system. Terms are set in the contract, and the winner, assuming he doesn't break any rules set in the contract collects.
I think it would be really cool if this could be integrated with in game politics. Basically, players establish a culture where 'Might Makes Right' and players can duel for leadership positions.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Not what I was expecting when I looked at this topic.
There does need to be a way to do combat training in a non-lethal manner. A period where the opponent is bleeding out and can be stabilized is more then enough to facilitate this.
Now when I expect was something about formal duels for some legitimate reason.
Basically, what I would like to see is Dueling integrated with the contract system. Terms are set in the contract, and the winner, assuming he doesn't break any rules set in the contract collects.
I think it would be really cool if this could be integrated with in game politics. Basically, players establish a culture where 'Might Makes Right' and players can duel for leadership positions.
Interesting idea, I like it!
War won by champion rather than battle!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Hmm, does this mean that you couldn't permit someone else to grab your stuff for you?
Exactly. If anyone loots your husk, they'll get a random sample of your loot and the rest will vanish. If you're adventuring with friends, they'll need to guard your husk until you can return to claim your stuff.
I don't know if they'll let us drag corpses. We've mentioned it, but there's never been an official response.
... I would like to see is Dueling integrated with the contract system.
I think that's a fantastic idea! +1 for sure! It would even be cool to have Contracts for larger scale battles.
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Goblin Squad Member
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... I would like to see is Dueling integrated with the contract system.I think that's a fantastic idea! +1 for sure! It would even be cool to have Contracts for larger scale battles.
That could just be the way war declarations are handled... Get a challenge contract, select either yourself, your party, or your company, and then select a similarly sized opposing group. Of course, only party and company leaders would be able to declare or accept the conditions in the contract.