*Snip*
I have run some numbers.
Please be aware that this is a Monk using a temple sword in two hands.
So a monk using flurry unarmed will get a smaller crit range, and will also recieve lesser damage from power attack. Further said monk will have to enchant an AoMF which costs double what enchanting the temple sword does.
In short an AoMF core monk with no archetypes will do less damage than any other martial class including a non-smiting paladin, or a rogue.
I've only gone through some of the tables so far, but I notice in the monk tables you're only counting the minimum damage from the temple sword's d8, ie 1 point of damage. In addition, either you are not factoring the additional attacks at all, or you haven't updated it to account for the fact you can flurry with the sword for all attacks.
I've only gone through some of the tables so far, but I notice in the monk tables you're only counting the minimum damage from the temple sword's d8, ie 1 point of damage. In addition, either you are not factoring the additional attacks at all, or you haven't updated it to account for the fact you can flurry with the sword for all attacks.*Snip*
I have run some numbers.
Please be aware that this is a Monk using a temple sword in two hands.
So a monk using flurry unarmed will get a smaller crit range, and will also recieve lesser damage from power attack. Further said monk will have to enchant an AoMF which costs double what enchanting the temple sword does.
In short an AoMF core monk with no archetypes will do less damage than any other martial class including a non-smiting paladin, or a rogue.
I just rechecked my spreadsheet and from what I can see I am applying the temple swords damage as 4.5 not one. Could you please tell me what particular level you saw this at?
I did not include extra attacks from Ki true, as a monk will have a very limited pool of such available at all levels.
He will not be able to do so for every round until level 20.
I just rechecked my spreadsheet and from what I can see I am applying the temple swords damage as 4.5 not one. Could you please tell me what particular level you saw this at?
I did not include extra attacks from Ki true, as a monk will have a very limited pool of such available at all levels.
He will not be able to do so for every round until level 20.
Level 1 and 2, "damage no PA" is 4. Should be 7.5 (4.5 from d8, 3 from Str). Level 1 and 2 "Damage with PA" is 7, should be 10.5 (4.5 d8 + 3 Str +3 PA). And I only see one attack, not the two you get from Flurry.
I see similar numbers in level 3 when you get a +1 sword, level 4 when your PA goes to -2/+6, and I skipped down to 11th level where I notice only 3 attack entries, not the 5 a flurrying monk should have.
And by "extra attacks" I mean the additional attacks for flurry/twf, not the ones from Ki expendature.
And if you figure it buying the Rogue or Fighter their +5 weapons it will end up being a little more expensive than the Monk.
Now did he count in the Rogues Sneak Attack or did he actually figure it up both with or without Sneak Attack?
I just rechecked my spreadsheet and from what I can see I am applying the temple swords damage as 4.5 not one. Could you please tell me what particular level you saw this at?
I did not include extra attacks from Ki true, as a monk will have a very limited pool of such available at all levels.
He will not be able to do so for every round until level 20.
Level 1 and 2, "damage no PA" is 4. Should be 7.5 (4.5 from d8, 3 from Str). Level "Damage with PA" is 7, should be 10.5 (4.5 d8 + 3 Str +3 PA). And I only see one attack, not the two you get from Flurry.
I see similar numbers in level 3 when you get a +1 sword, level 4 when your PA goes to -2/+6, and I skipped down to 11th level where I notice only 3 attack entries, not the 5 a flurrying monk should have.
And by "extra attacks" I mean the additional attacks for flurry/twf, not the ones from Ki expendature.
The damage with PA and without PA blocks do not include weapon damage.
That is in a separate place sorry it is called "Unarmed" as this is a port over from another sheet I was making and it is correct in the math department as far as I can tell but some labels were not changed.
To address the Sneak attack question all rogue numbers are done with Sneak attack, as a rogue without sneak attack does so little damage they are worthless as combatants in my opinion. If you would like to see a level without SA however feel free to simply change the Sneak attack value on that rogues tab to 0 for the level you wish to see.
What is the assumption on target AC at each level? Is it the AC of a creature of equal CR?
And what about the missing attack entries?
The thing is Monks don't need any special conditions to do their full damage.
What is the assumption on target AC at each level? Is it the AC of a creature of equal CR?
And what about the missing attack entries?
AC is from the bestiary, is for a creature whose CR equals the level in question, and is in the tab labeled assumptions. you can change it if you wish and all DPR for all classes at that level should change.
I am unclear on what you mean by missing attacks? I just checked and all of the monks flurry attacks are represented and at the correct levels. Do you mean attacks granted by Ki?
What is the assumption on target AC at each level? Is it the AC of a creature of equal CR?
And what about the missing attack entries?
AC is from the bestiary, is for a creature whose CR equals the level in question, and is in the tab labeled assumptions. you can change it if you wish and all DPR for all classes at that level should change.
I am unclear on what you mean by missing attacks? I just checked and all of the monks flurry attacks are represented and at the correct levels. Do you mean attacks granted by Ki?
I mean that in the level 1-5, monk's have one to-hit entry when they have 2 attacks in a flurry. level 6-10 they have 2 attacks entries when they should have 3 or 4. Level 11 they have 3 attack entries when they should have 5, etc.
And while it does say "Monster AC is from the Beastiary Table", it does not make it clear that all calculations are against monsters of equal CR to the level being calculated.
The thing is Monks don't need any special conditions to do their full damage.
Neither do fighters.
The point is that this build is in my opinion viable, however it is using one weapon not two and so is as far as I can see the Highest DPR build for a core only monk without multiclassing.
This means that a monk who receives less from power attack, has to Pay more for his weapons, and has a smaller crit range will have lower DPR.
The monk who is two handing a temple sword only pulls ahead of a non-smiting, non special ability using (I.E. no spells or Divine bond) paladin at level 11 and will be equal to or behind said paladin for longer if using unarmed.
What is the assumption on target AC at each level? Is it the AC of a creature of equal CR?
And what about the missing attack entries?
AC is from the bestiary, is for a creature whose CR equals the level in question, and is in the tab labeled assumptions. you can change it if you wish and all DPR for all classes at that level should change.
I am unclear on what you mean by missing attacks? I just checked and all of the monks flurry attacks are represented and at the correct levels. Do you mean attacks granted by Ki?
I mean that in the level 1-5, monk's have one to-hit entry when they have 2 attacks in a flurry. level 6-10 they have 2 attacks entries when they should have 3 or 4. Level 11 they have 3 attack entries when they should have 5, etc.
And while it does say "Monster AC is from the Beastiary Table", it does not make it clear that all calculations are against monsters of equal CR to the level being calculated.
Ah my apologies for the lack of clarity on the AC origins. Yes it is for an equal CR creature.
The monk has the same to hit for both attacks at level one and follows an iterative pattern as he gains new attacks, so the calculations done in the DPR Comparison Chart tab simply read the to hit twice for an attack when it is identical to another attack and this means that only one to hit is required at level 1-5 as you describe, and it iterates from there. If the monk was using two non matched weapons as the rogue does I would most likely have just changed the calculations in the DPR tab as I did with the rogue.
So please, explain where I am missing the issues.
Sure thing!
The increasing damage dice equate to at least +1 average damage every three levels. While that's not as good as a challenging Cavalier or smiting Paladin, it's better than a fighter and only slightly behind a ranger stacking all his favored enemy bonuses against one creature type.
The thing to remember here is that the bonus these classes get is on top of always having a full BAB, while the Monk's bonus is technically only coming from "upgrading" to a full BAB from 3/4 BAB. (It's important to remember that, in the grand scheme of things, a higher chance to hit is worth more damage than a bigger damage die.)
As far as damage, specifically, is concerned compared to the prior three: The Monk only has the single option for damage if they want the increases per level. That option only comes with a x2 crit rating, which after a certain point, just doesn't cut it anymore (you want either a higher range or a higher multiplier, neither of which are an option for said Monk).When a Fighter/Cavalier/Paladin/Ranger gets their damage bonuses, it's added to whatever weapon they want.
It's at least as good as an inquisitor's judgement, though since they also get bane they pull ahead a bit.
You also can't forget the divine spells that an Inquisitor has access to. They're ahead of the Monk before spells. They're significantly ahead after.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I also believe this is faster than a barbarian's rage bonus to Str increasing.
With barbs, the issue is two-fold. One, the same argument from above applies here (their damage bonus gets added to whatever weapon they want). And two, a barb can stack Str much easier than a Monk can, due to being significantly less MAD.
Some people claim that the monk's MAD is an issue in hitting. I fail to see how starting with a 16 Str vs an 18 (for example) completely kills the class's to-hit viability.
Starting with a 16 Str means your Dex and Wis will suffer (probably 14 in each). With such low Dex and Wis, you're so easy to hit that you'll be lucky to survive enough encounters to get the gear you need to bump that AC to acceptable levels.
You could mitigate this by wearing armor, but that turns off so many parts of your class that, at that point, why are you even playing a Monk?
Fighter (1-20) vs. Monk (1-20) sans Strength bonus or magic.
FIGHTER
1st level: +2*
2nd level: +3
3rd level: +4
4th level: +5
5th level: +7
6th level: +8/+3
7th level: +9/+4
8th level: +11**/+6
9th level: +13~/+8
10th level: +14/+9
11th level: +15/+10/+5
12th level: +16/+11/+6
13th level: +18^/+13/+8
14th level: +19/+14/+9
15th level: +20/+15/+10
16th level: +21/+16/+11/+6
17th level: +23#/+18/+13/+8
18th level: +24/+19/+14/+9
19th level: +25/+20/+15/+10
20th level: +26/+21/+16/+11
*Weapon Focus feat.
*Greater Weapon Focus feat.
~Weapon Training 2.
^Weapon Training 3.
#Weapon Training 4.
Okay, that is the base attack numbers for the fighter class BEFORE Strength, or Magic, or even a Masterwork weapon. Presuming a one-handed weapon (not optimal, but we want the monk to stay in the running), that does 1d8 damage with a threat range of 19-20/x2 (i.e., a longsword), the fighter is doing 1d8 points of damage per attack that successfully hits. 1d8+2 at 4th level; 1d8+3 at 5th level, 1d8+4 at 9th level, 1d8+6 at 12th level, 1d8+7 at 13th level, and 1d8+8 at 17th level. That puts average damage at 4.5 (1st), 6.5 (4th), 7.5 (5th), 8.5 (9th), 10.5 (12th), 11.5 (13th), and 12.5 (17th).
Now let us look at the monk.
MONK (FLURRY)
1st level: -1/-1
2nd level: +0/+0
3rd level: +2*/+2
4th level: +3/+3
5th level: +4/+4
6th level: +5/+5/+0
7th level: +6/+6/+1
8th level: +7/+7/+2/+2
9th level: +8/+8/+3/+3
10th level: +9/+9/+4/+4
11th level: +10/+10/+5/+5/+0
12th level: +11/+11/+6/+/6/+1
13th level: +12/+12/+7/+7/+2
14th level: +13/+13/+8/+8/+3
15th level: +14/+14/+9/+9/+4/+4
16th level: +15/+15/+10/+10/+5/+5/+0
17th level: +16/+16/+11/+11/+6/+6/+1
18th level: +17/+17/+12/+12/+7/+7/+2
19th level: +18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3
20th level: +19/+19/+14/+14/+9/+9/+4
*Weapon Focus feat.
Once again, no Strength or Magic, and you can’t get masterwork on unarmed strikes (LOL). With unarmed strikes (threat range 20/x2), the monk is doing 1d6 points of damage per attack that successfully hits. 1d8 at 4th level, 1d10 at 8th level, 2d6 at 12th level, 2d8 at 16th level, and 2d10 at 20th level. That puts average damage at 3.5 (1st), 4.5 (4th), 5.5 (8th), 7 (12th), 9 (16th), and 11 (20th).
Yes, the monk gets more attacks (when he doesn’t move) but the difference in attack bonuses is simply staggering for two martial characters. The fighter could use Power Attack, and STILL come out with a higher attack bonus than the monk using his best attack bonus (which would boost the damage of the fighter considerably).
The difference isn’t so great against Barbarians, Paladins, and Rangers . . . as long as those classes aren’t Raging, Smiting, or fighting their Favored Enemies. When that happens, the monk goes to the back of the pack AGAIN.
And when you add Strength and magic into the equation, it just keeps on getting worse for the monk. Monks cannot afford to prioritize Strength to the same degree as a Fighter or Barbarian; heck, not even as much as a Paladin or Ranger. Why? They don’t wear armor; they NEED Dexterity and Wisdom, and CONSTITUTION if they plan on being in combat (and monks are a combat class).
By 20th level, that fighter has a +5 speed weapon (at least), gloves of dueling, and should have a Strength score of at least 30, including enhancement and inherent bonuses and ability scores increases at every fourth level. That gives our 20th level fighter attacks of +43/+43/+38/+33/+28 doing 1d8+25 (average damage 29.5 per hit w/o PA).
A 20th level monk, will have a +5 amulet of mighty fists and should have a Strength score of around 24-26 (including all bonuses). We will say 26. That puts him at +32/+32/+27/+27/+22/+22/+17 doing 2d10+13 (average damage 24 per hit w/o PA).
The fighter can use both Power Attack and Combat Expertise (if he has an Int of 13+, that is) and be 1 point below the monk in total adjusted attack bonus. His average damage will increase to 41.5 per hit and he will gain +6 AC as a dodge bonus.
All of this depends on the monk being able to flurry. If he moves, his attack bonus (his BAB) drops, and the odds get worse.
MA
To be fair, Master Arminas, you should say a Fighter could have a +5 speed weapon and/or gloves of dueling, not that he will have one. Not every Fighter can or will take a speed weapon, and the gloves of dueling are not in the CRB so may not be available.
To be fair, Master Arminas, you should say a Fighter could have a +5 speed weapon and/or gloves of dueling, not that he will have one. Not every Fighter can or will take a speed weapon, and the gloves of dueling are not in the CRB so may not be available.
Point. But probably 95%+ of all players WILL have those.
MA
Drawing from my own experience here, but the last 5 fighters I'd seen that were high enough level to reliably own the gloves, none of them had them. In fact, the only person that builds fighters and that has equipped them is myself that I know of. I'm drawing from a list of 30ish players as well.
However, the speed weapon is a lot more common. Though the only people I see getting it are one that don't already own boots of speed or reliably have access to haste from the parties arcane caster.
In answer of the original question, what do I want to see in the monk class? HERE YOU GO.
MA
I want a prestige class for monks simular to Book of Nine Swords swordsage...
I want the monk to have better hit-dice and they do not need to lose anything for it, they are behind enough!