Hello all,
I am working on building a gestalt character - 25 pt buy, 2 traits, DM houserule=1 feat/lvl.
Now... For multiple reasons, I can name them as the dicussion progresses, I want to make a Tiefling Barbarian/Paladin - it fits very nicely with the concept of what I have in mind for the character, and I also think it fits very well into the campaign flavor - Kingmaker.
So I would like to have your comments on such a character build - lets simply assume that my DM allows me to overlook the lignment restrictions, for simplicity sake.
On the Barbarian end, I am quite set on the Invulnerable rager/Urban Barbarian archetype - I have completely fallen in love with that character mechanics - endurance, diehard, stalwart and so forth.
On the Paladin end, I was planning to play him straight up, no archetypes.
But I do have some concerns:
- Feats: Assuming the basics - Combat Reflexes, Endurance, Diehard, Power Attack, Stalwart - It already seems that I will be hard pressed to access the core build at a decent level, if compared for example with... a human Barbarian/Fighter Unbreakable (would be packing Endurance and Diehard as bonus + 2 others)
- The "Gestalt" Part - I have never played a gestalt character, so I am unsure regarding the sinergy between these two classes - I have read two theories around the forums: Aim for full BAB + caster level OR, due to action economy issues, aim for a main component (BAB or caster) and round it off with an alternate class that pumps abilities that complement the "main" one. I am just worried that when all the others will be mowing down entire armies, I will be killing one at a time, and in the end be left holding my sword while the others shine through.
- Skills: Being a Kingmaker campaign, I wouldn't want to be a complete one trick pony, so main investment would be on: diplomacy, sense motive, Survival(will be low due to low wis), Intimidation (I mean... Barb without intimidate? :D And maybe for an Antagonize option down the line), Knowledge....huh... local? and that's about it.
I have many other questions, but would like to start off with these, and have your opinions on build, concerns, etc.
Thanks.
oh jeez, tacking on paladin alongside tankbarian is going to be nightmarish for enemies. i'm practically salivating over here.
my first thought would be str>con>cha>wis>dex>int or str>cha>con>wis>dex>int stat-wise
for traits you'll want threatening defender (if you're going the combat expertise/stalwart route) and magical knack if you want to touch up your paladin CL to level-1 instead of -3
skills you'd likely get some mileage out of sense motive, bluff, diplomacy, intimidate, knowledge (nobility/local/religion), perception, and survival, ride helps too i think. and with a feat every level you can really afford to branch out with your combat options as well--dont be afraid to take extra rage power or somesuch if you've got some spares lying around.
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I like the concept but I don't think it will work. Even with the gestalt rules you have to abide by all the restrictions of the class. Paladins have to be Lawful Good or lose all class abilities except for feats and skills. Barbarians on the other hand lose rage if they are lawful. So what you end up with is either a paladin with no powers or a barbarian who can't rage.
A better combination would be a either a paladin/cleric of Ragathiel for the rage domain. Another way to do it would be a barbarian/cleric or oracle. Either way you end up with a better gestalt combination. You really want to go for a full caster and full BAB combination. Use the spells more out of combat to give you more versatility and fight primarily as a barbarian or paladin.
Or a Paladin/Oracle of Battle.. Or a Paladin/Bard.. Unless ur dm allows it Paladin/Barb does not work legal wise..
Alternatively a 2Hand Fighter/Barb would be rediculous... The Ultimate melee damage dealer.. Or even Weapon Master/Barb.. Either way Invul Rager is the way togo..
I am working on building a gestalt character - 25 pt buy, 2 traits, DM houserule=1 feat/lvl.
Anytime you play gestalt you want to ask what each side brings to the party. The glaring thing that jumps out at me is the overlap, since both classes bring high hit points, high BAB and weapon skills.
Personally I like to mix a weak class with a strong class and vice versa, so I would want to be a caster/melee combo. It also has interesting flavour when your raging ball of muscle hits himself with a haste spell before entering combat.
Thanks for the feedback so far guys.
@AndIMustMask: good to see you here, since I really enjoyed your comments regarding the mini guide to the barbarian tank :D I am really not that well versed in rage powers - meaning I do not know them very well, and which ones result best in this or that situation - I will take a further look at it. Mind you I am still level 1.
@Mysterious Stranger: Well, as I isaid in the OP, there is a chance that it will be approved, so this is the assumption I am going with to address this build. Here's my thing with Barbarian/Cleric or Oracle - I am under the impression that even raging I am still allowed the lay on hands right? On the other hand, I will not be able to cast while raging - of course going full out caster/Barbarian will give me more options, but not really while raging. Would you agree? And remember, this is Kingmaker, I want Charisma ;)
@WerePox47: You have touched a nerve there I gotta admit - Barbarian/Fighter is just that itch that I would die to scratch... It would give me feats to... well... about anything :D He would definitely be a killing machine all on his own, but... in the end would just be a man with a sword/mace/polearm in his hands - no spellcasting at all seems to be gimping himself.
@Xenh: No doubt about that - allying a full caster to a full BAB means a strong character, but remember... I can always push the card a little further, get Use Magic Device, put my charisma to work and... BAM!! Right?
The rage power moment of clarity will allow you to cast if you need to. It temporarily suspends the benefits and bonus of rage but does not end rage. In all honesty though you will probably not need cast more than one spell while raging.
If you go for a cleric of Ragatheil and take the rage domain it will give you more rounds of rage and even more rage powers. True this is not until 8th level but still a nice combination.
The Oracle of battle can get combat healing to allow casting of a cure spell as a swift action. Taken with moment of clarity should allow some decent in combat healing. If you take renewed vigor and later regenerative vigor that should be about all the combat healing you need. With the oracle of battle you can get a ton of extra feats including die hard without having to meet the prerequisites. This is mostly at mid to high levels but still nice to get extra feats. Your buffs you cast before rage so that will not be a problem.
You are starting to win me over with the Paladin/Oracle of Battle, mainly because it also is based off charisma, and has a nice skill set.
However, Stalwart has diehard as pre-req, and Stalwart is kind of the base for this barbarian build... having it only at 7th level may actually be a big pain to play in the earlier levels.
Another thing, when you say "a ton of feats" you mean from the revelations list right?
And he still won't be able to heal himself during a fight, Renewed Vigor is (Ex) so he should be able to use it - but it seems to heal so little...
Edit:
@Bigger Club: Starting level is 1.
I can see where you are going with Alchemist, and I have also read something about it and it seems to completely melt faces. the thing here is:
- This is a Kingmaker campaign, so I am looking for optimization, but with a theme - I can see the barbarian/pala becoming king one day, or the martial advisor on some kingdom (keep in mind I do not really know much about Kingmaker, but this seems to be the logic behind it) - so I am intending to back him up with some charisma, and the skills behind it. I feel the alchemis would be lacking there, or at least not getting much out of a high charisma:
- Pure optimization wise, I think I would go Synthesist and that's that, but I feel ashamed to play cheesily overpowered concepts ;)
- Also, the DM has made this gestalt but disallowed multi-classing which I believe is a common houserule - it is irrelevant anyway, since its been disallowed, period :D So this prevents me from multiple dips :/
Barbarian/Paladin is not the best but it can be good. Use the stalwart build for defense, buff before battle or in the first few rounds at high levels, then rage and smite. Between rage and smite you can eat the penalties for fighting defensively nd powerattacking and still hit with almost any attack. You can only kill a single enemy but you're darn good at it so go kill the most dangerous one in a group. Leave the minions for the other players and go straight for the BBEG. If the other players say anything about being able to mow down armies and you being able to kill just one guy, remind them that you can have epic manly duels with BBEGs while you leave your minions, oops, fellow party members, fight the other minions.
Invulnerable rager is always good, but I don't reccomend Urban unless you intend to focus your spells more on attacking than buffing. If you use buffs you would want to use them before battle anyway so rage doesn't interfere much. Urban will definetly be better only if the DM says you can't use lay on hands on yourself during normal rage.
For attributes put Charisma first and foremost. It adds to all your saves and to attack and AC against enemies you are smiting. Strenght and Constitution come in second. If you really want skills get Int to twelve. Dump Dex, since your defense willnot be based on AC but on DR and HP. Dump Will, your Charisma and Superstition will cover your will save and paladins have a good will anyway, so you can afford it.
For rage powers go with the barbarians old stand by, the superstition tree, at least superstition for the saves and witch hunterbecause the extra damage affects near anything, beast totem for pounce because pounce is awesome, and a few of the intimidate ones, Intimidating Glare allows you to demoralize as a move action and taunting boast keeps the enemy shaken until he hits you with a melee attack, basically a better version of Antagonize.
For Paladin your first mercy should be Fatigued, so you will never have to worry about those rounds after the rage ends. I think you can even rage cycle with it so you may want to think abut those once a round rage powers.
For feats look for extra rage power to get all the rage powers you want, greater mercy to add more healing when you heal yourself in combat, raging vitality and Toughness for extra HP, plus the stalwart build. At first level take fiendish heritage so your race choice won't be such a shot on the foot, choosing kyton spawn, demon spawn, or even rakshasa spawn is better than basic tiefling for this build. You can have your basic stalwart build by fifth level, sixth if you take power attack early.
Maybe see if your DM allows you to multiclass two levels of unbreakable fighter before going paladin? Would delay you saves to fourth level tough.
For skills, I don't know Kingmaker, but give up on Survival, you only get 4 skill points a level, so if you want one wis skill you will have to choose between Sense Motive and Perception, if you do get 12 Int max the other one too. Intimidate maxed and Diplomacy to abuse that high Cha. Bluff is better than Diplomacy IMO, but paladins should avoid Bluff, lying too much can lead to falling. The last skill points are the ones you spread, a little in climb and swim just to have and a couple of knowledges are also good.
Barbarian/Paladin is not the best but it can be good. Use the stalwart build for defense, buff before battle or in the first few rounds at high levels, then rage and smite. Between rage and smite you can eat the penalties for fighting defensively nd powerattacking and still hit with almost any attack. You can only kill a single enemy but you're darn good at it so go kill the most dangerous one in a group. Leave the minions for the other players and go straight for the BBEG. If the other players say anything about being able to mow down armies and you being able to kill just one guy, remind them that you can have epic manly duels with BBEGs while you leave your minions, oops, fellow party members, fight the other minions.
Invulnerable rager is always good, but I don't reccomend Urban unless you intend to focus your spells more on attacking than buffing. If you use buffs you would want to use them before battle anyway so rage doesn't interfere much. Urban will definetly be better only if the DM says you can't use lay on hands on yourself during normal rage.
For attributes put Charisma first and foremost. It adds to all your saves and to attack and AC against enemies you are smiting. Strenght and Constitution come in second. If you really want skills get Int to twelve. Dump Dex, since your defense willnot be based on AC but on DR and HP. Dump Will, your Charisma and Superstition will cover your will save and paladins have a good will anyway, so you can afford it.
For rage powers go with the barbarians old stand by, the superstition tree, at least superstition for the saves and witch hunterbecause the extra damage affects near anything, beast totem for pounce because pounce is awesome, and a few of the intimidate ones, Intimidating Glare allows you to demoralize as a move action and taunting boast keeps the enemy shaken until he hits you with a melee attack, basically a better version of Antagonize.
For Paladin your first mercy should be Fatigued, so you will never have to worry about those rounds after the...
I am still reading through all your suggestions - thanks a LOT for the detailed feedback.
Just one thing - I was avoiding dropping DEX because of Combat Reflexes :D
You could always do a Paladin/Wild Stalker Ranger to get the paladin/barbarian feel without the alignment issues. If you were a sacred servant paladin with the rage domain or anger inquistion you'd eventually get good synergy with the rage ability (Ragathiel is the goto god for this).
If you are looking to the stalwart build a Paladin/Monk of the Sacred Mountain gets class based DR to stack with it and the fun abiity to spend a ki point to double his DR. Also this combo would qualify for Champon of Irori although i have no idea how prestige classes work with gestalts.
@Bertious: Both of your suggestions seem to mix quite nicely, however, and even though I know my chances for being the party face are slim with all the usual Bards flying around, I want to be able to take on that role - both the ranger and the monk gain no benefits from the high charisma type I have in mind. They would probably give me more advantages mechanics wise, but not in being the honorable, admirable combatant :D
Still waiting for the story to convince me to let you play this class combo. ;)
no. no renewed vigor. that is a WASTE. just lay on hands yourself if you must.
also, 2H fighter/barbarian would have a preposterous amount of feats and feat-equivalents.
Still waiting for the story to convince me to let you play this class combo. ;)
EEEK! My DM!! RUN!! haha
The story is already 90% complete Black Fang - that was actually the easy part - I just want to post fluff and crunch all at once, so you can check the coherency of the character, and then decide ;)
fun backup char:
paladin/sorcerer (wildblooded crossblooded PT infernal/draconic). take sorc half into dragon disciple. pick up EH orc at some point. become a god-king of the arcane and the divine.
fun backup char:
paladin/sorcerer (wildblooded crossblooded PT infernal/draconic). take sorc half into dragon disciple. pick up EH orc at some point. become a god-king of the arcane and the divine.
No multiclassing. Prestige classes will be handled in a way that will be revealed later.
Still waiting for the story to convince me to let you play this class combo. ;)EEEK! My DM!! RUN!! haha
The story is already 90% complete Black Fang - that was actually the easy part - I just want to post fluff and crunch all at once, so you can check the coherency of the character, and then decide ;)
Before going through all the work of hammering out the rules, I need a good reason to okay the mixing of Barbarian and Paladin. By the rules, Barbarian can not be lawful, and Paladin MUST be lawful. I'm willing to bend, break, and ignore rules for a good enough story. I still waiting to see the story for this character.
Before going through all the work of hammering out the rules, I need a good reason to okay the mixing of Barbarian and Paladin. By the rules, Barbarian can not be lawful, and Paladin MUST be lawful. I'm willing to bend, break, and ignore rules for a good enough story. I still waiting to see the story for this character.Still waiting for the story to convince me to let you play this class combo. ;)EEEK! My DM!! RUN!! haha
The story is already 90% complete Black Fang - that was actually the easy part - I just want to post fluff and crunch all at once, so you can check the coherency of the character, and then decide ;)
Will be up in a couple of hours, as soon as I get home
The Empyreal lord Ragathiel can help you Edelhur. If anygod is going to accept a barbarian paladin it's him. (Personally i think it's the chastity that drives the vengance :P)
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I think barbarian/paladin is a good idea provided the alignment restriction is lessened by the GM. A silly alternative is the two-weapon fighter/Titan mauler barbarian. At high levels you can be dual wielding large two handers, with the off hand considered light even. You have the stats and the feats to make it work, and your attack bonus, especially if you take reckless abandon, will mitigate the penalties. The only tragedy is the loss of weapon training.
I get the feeling that, since your GM is okay with gestalt characters and giving everyone one feat per level (not just fighters), he might be okay with some 3PP.
If he is, I point you in the direction of Dreamscarred Press's Maenad race. Specifically, it's Ordered Rage racial ability:
Maenads may take levels in the barbarian class even if they are of the lawful alignment.
Alignment issue solved.
I get the feeling that, since your GM is okay with gestalt characters and giving everyone one feat per level (not just fighters), he might be okay with some 3PP.
If he is, I point you in the direction of Dreamscarred Press's Maenad race. Specifically, it's Ordered Rage racial ability:
Maenads may take levels in the barbarian class even if they are of the lawful alignment.Alignment issue solved.
Anything in not the PRD requires GM approval, which means the player has to ask before using it.
paladin/dawnflower dervish azata aasimar with favoured bonus in inspired courage.... win?
fighter/dawnflower dervish azata aasimar with favoured bonus in inspired courage.... win?
You're not even in the correct thread for that.
fighter/dawnflower dervish azata aasimar with favoured bonus in inspired courage.... win?You're not even in the correct thread for that.
shucks *wanders off pouting*
should have put in an edit notation, sorry. My mind was kind of wandering.
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Well a way around the paladin/barbarian alignment restriction is go to the other way on the alignment scale...
Go with an Anti-Paladin (CE)/ Barbarian (Any non-lawful), if you are a Dhamphir you can use the Touch of Corruption to heal yourself. You'd be pretty dang fearsome. I'd probably try to gain those intimidating types of feats/powers like cornugon smash, dreadful carnage, intimidating prowess, intimidating glare, and terrifying howl
A CE alignment doesn't mean you wouldn't team up with others of different alignments, you would be doing so only to gain personal power/wealth/notoriety. Not sure if your GM has alignment restrictions though, so you might want to check with him about it.
The only thing that would really suffer is the smite good if there aren't a lot of good enemies around to smite. Otherwise it could be a pretty dang fun character to play I think. Oh and I'd make the Barbarian an Invulnerable Rager for the DR. Then you have the ability to heal yourself and shrug off even more damage!
Barbarian/Paladin is not the best but it can be good. Use the stalwart build for defense, buff before battle or in the first few rounds at high levels, then rage and smite. Between rage and smite you can eat the penalties for fighting defensively nd powerattacking and still hit with almost any attack. You can only kill a single enemy but you're darn good at it so go kill the most dangerous one in a group. Leave the minions for the other players and go straight for the BBEG. If the other players say anything about being able to mow down armies and you being able to kill just one guy, remind them that you can have epic manly duels with BBEGs while you leave your minions, oops, fellow party members, fight the other minions.
Invulnerable rager is always good, but I don't reccomend Urban unless you intend to focus your spells more on attacking than buffing. If you use buffs you would want to use them before battle anyway so rage doesn't interfere much. Urban will definetly be better only if the DM says you can't use lay on hands on yourself during normal rage.
For attributes put Charisma first and foremost. It adds to all your saves and to attack and AC against enemies you are smiting. Strenght and Constitution come in second. If you really want skills get Int to twelve. Dump Dex, since your defense willnot be based on AC but on DR and HP. Dump Will, your Charisma and Superstition will cover your will save and paladins have a good will anyway, so you can afford it.
For rage powers go with the barbarians old stand by, the superstition tree, at least superstition for the saves and witch hunterbecause the extra damage affects near anything, beast totem for pounce because pounce is awesome, and a few of the intimidate ones, Intimidating Glare allows you to demoralize as a move action and taunting boast keeps the enemy shaken until he hits you with a melee attack, basically a better version of Antagonize.
For Paladin your first mercy should be Fatigued, so you will never have toI am still reading through all your suggestions - thanks a LOT for the detailed feedback.
Just one thing - I was avoiding dropping DEX because of Combat Reflexes :D
Sorry, I went derp for a moment. Dump int or lower either str or con, I would say.
And what can I say? I love gestalt and I love barbarians. And I even like paladins. It's a gestalt I would love to play.And now, thanks to you, and Harrison for showing me the Maenad, I know what I'm going to play next time I can play gestalt.
...Barbarian/Paladin is not the best but it can be good. Use the stalwart build for defense, buff before battle or in the first few rounds at high levels, then rage and smite. Between rage and smite you can eat the penalties for fighting defensively nd powerattacking and still hit with almost any attack. You can only kill a single enemy but you're darn good at it so go kill the most dangerous one in a group. Leave the minions for the other players and go straight for the BBEG. If the other players say anything about being able to mow down armies and you being able to kill just one guy, remind them that you can have epic manly duels with BBEGs while you leave your minions, oops, fellow party members, fight the other minions.
Invulnerable rager is always good, but I don't reccomend Urban unless you intend to focus your spells more on attacking than buffing. If you use buffs you would want to use them before battle anyway so rage doesn't interfere much. Urban will definetly be better only if the DM says you can't use lay on hands on yourself during normal rage.
For attributes put Charisma first and foremost. It adds to all your saves and to attack and AC against enemies you are smiting. Strenght and Constitution come in second. If you really want skills get Int to twelve. Dump Dex, since your defense willnot be based on AC but on DR and HP. Dump Will, your Charisma and Superstition will cover your will save and paladins have a good will anyway, so you can afford it.
For rage powers go with the barbarians old stand by, the superstition tree, at least superstition for the saves and witch hunterbecause the extra damage affects near anything, beast totem for pounce because pounce is awesome, and a few of the intimidate ones, Intimidating Glare allows you to demoralize as a move action and taunting boast keeps the enemy shaken until he hits you with a melee attack, basically a better version of Antagonize.
For Paladin your first mercy should be Fatigued,
Submissions are being accepted until Noon Paizo time on Monday. Feel free to toss out a candidate. LINK
...Barbarian/Paladin is not the best but it can be good. Use the stalwart build for defense, buff before battle or in the first few rounds at high levels, then rage and smite. Between rage and smite you can eat the penalties for fighting defensively nd powerattacking and still hit with almost any attack. You can only kill a single enemy but you're darn good at it so go kill the most dangerous one in a group. Leave the minions for the other players and go straight for the BBEG. If the other players say anything about being able to mow down armies and you being able to kill just one guy, remind them that you can have epic manly duels with BBEGs while you leave your minions, oops, fellow party members, fight the other minions.
Invulnerable rager is always good, but I don't reccomend Urban unless you intend to focus your spells more on attacking than buffing. If you use buffs you would want to use them before battle anyway so rage doesn't interfere much. Urban will definetly be better only if the DM says you can't use lay on hands on yourself during normal rage.
For attributes put Charisma first and foremost. It adds to all your saves and to attack and AC against enemies you are smiting. Strenght and Constitution come in second. If you really want skills get Int to twelve. Dump Dex, since your defense willnot be based on AC but on DR and HP. Dump Will, your Charisma and Superstition will cover your will save and paladins have a good will anyway, so you can afford it.
For rage powers go with the barbarians old stand by, the superstition tree, at least superstition for the saves and witch hunterbecause the extra damage affects near anything, beast totem for pounce because pounce is awesome, and a few of the intimidate ones, Intimidating Glare allows you to demoralize as a move action and taunting boast keeps the enemy shaken until he hits you with a melee attack, basically a better version of Antagonize.
For Paladin your
A day late and a penny short, just as my luck usually goes. Eh, showing up with a character nearly identical to someones else is bad form anyway, if you know what character they want and Edeldhur had dibs.