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has it been considered that it was not meant for pc's but low level npc's who do have bad stats? I know its been mentioned it would only be better for them. maybe thats why its there, is for low level npc's with bad stats and low gold
Apparently if it's in the book, and it's not optimized, it's badwrongfun. I remember people absolutely REAMING the geisha archetype because it's not a combat monster. My thoughts: maybe it's intended for NPC geishas who have no business trying to melee an ogre.
Unless it's a RoboGeisha.
Half-Plate is handy on some Melee Specialist Fighters who have little to no ranged ability.
Rare build but not impossible. It can even be a better build than most builds.
has it been considered that it was not meant for pc's but low level npc's who do have bad stats? I know its been mentioned it would only be better for them. maybe thats why its there, is for low level npc's with bad stats and low goldApparently if it's in the book, and it's not optimized, it's badwrongfun. I remember people absolutely REAMING the geisha archetype because it's not a combat monster. My thoughts: maybe it's intended for NPC geishas who have no business trying to melee an ogre.
Unless it's a RoboGeisha.
the ninja cannot fight their way out of a paper bag either. but that is an issue derived from being a rogue archetype.
the geisha isn't even a decent caster, it's a gimped enchantress without access to anywhere near the versatility a proper enchantress could have. and it's Tea Ceremony is useless.
walk through a dungeon for 10 minutes, "hey, lets have a tea party." the Geisha says, 10 minutes later, they walk around, and after another 10 minutes, "hey, lets have another tea party." and the party keep asking, "why don't you just stay home and drink with your dolls? your constant tea parties are slowing our progress."
Aaaand that's why geisha aren't in dungeons to begin with.
Aaaand that's why geisha aren't in dungeons to begin with.
a smart Pathfinder Geisha stays at home and has tea parties with her dolls. because at least then, the only thing she is delaying, is herself. her clients most likely don't want her witch tea. it may place them into eternal slumber, or turn them into a newt as far as they are concerned. so nobody else drinks their arousal enhancing tea anyway.
and nobody wants to hire the services of an escort that is alchemically dependent on her witch tea. especially when a proper companion could be hired for a whole lot cheaper.
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Or, geisha are still powerful character and most likely to be found as major political string-pullers.
EDIT: Look, within so-called civilized society, characters with classes like Bard will be prominent power figures once they get a few levels. What do you think would be the societal role of a Bard 10 in a major city?
Now, what does the geisha give up on the standard bard?
- Armor and weapon proficiencies. Doesn't matter in that role.
- Expert knowledge on a lot of stuff. This matters, and makes her less able to be a scholar.
What does she gain?
- Expert skill in diplomacy and performing, making her an excellent diplomat and persuader.
- Tea ceremony, which is flavorful but not really that important. However, while a standard bard will have a hard time utilizing Inspire Competence in a social situation, the geisha very much can. She can take a tea party before meeting with the baron, and suddenly he's even more friendly to her words.
- Scribe Scroll. Meh.
So compared to the base bard? No large changes at all. A bit different flavor, a little more skilled at socializing, a little less knowledges.
Thing is, the geisha isn't significantly better at anything than the bard. You don't need an archetype to get the things you mentioned, because that's what feats are for. You don't need a bunch of heroic class features for a character who's never meant to fight and the tea ceremony is worthless in pretty much every context except for arranged duels on your own turf, where it most likely doesn't feel right.
The stuff the geisha is supposedly for is not something that's ever going to need an archetype, so when people see the name and think "Aha! Stuff for Japanese bards/classy hookers/entertainers a cut above street performers/whatever!" they WILL be disappointed. That's why they hate it.
If it's not a combat monster, can it at least be a SOMETHING monster? Most other things are, so it would only be balanced to make a genuinely useful tea ceremony.
I agree that its an unneded archetype, but i feel the same way about maybe half of all archetypes and a good number of prestige classes too. Im not saying its a good archetype, im saying that for what its intended for, its not worse than the baseline bard.
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Yeah, there is definitely a lot of PC bias on the forums when it comes to analysis.
I often see people complaining about things I would be glad to use for NPCs.
I think there's no good reason why something cool for an NPC class can't also be made genuinely practical though. Weak archetypes don't become good just because an NPC can find a highly specialised them for them, or doesn't need a decent build to be effective in their role.
Likewise, if there's half plate in the book, why shouldn't it be usable by the players? I get that there's potentially something you can do with it, but why should that be considered good enough? It could stand to be lighter, cheaper, have max dex +1 and still not noticeably affect game balance. It's not just bad, it's bad value. It's a trap for the inexperienced and it isn't pulling nearly as much weight as it could.
I don't see the difference between saying "it's viable for an npc in a court who's never going to have an adventure" and saying "it's viable for a non-good dwarf pc with the following feats and alternate racial features, once it kicks in a Xth level"
"Narrow" could always be better. "Almost always pointless" is not worth the paper it's printed on. Half plate and the geisha come dangerously close to the line between them.
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I agree with a lot of what's been said here about half-plate in terms of lack of use and being suboptimal but I don't feel like it really needs a stat change so much as a price change. If its meant to be a mass produced armor for mobilized military it should be vastly cheaper due to it's mass production, ease of access to materials and schematics, and the general knowledge of most smiths would have for crafting it since they would likely be making it often. With that in mind why not drop it down to being much closer to banded mail so that it is something more players and people in general would be interested in using?
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Is a half plate a stabbing or slashing weapon? What if my geisha wields her keen half plate in two hands? Or has one in each hand? What if I reskin her half plate a "saucer"? If it is enchanted will this "saucer" be considered for buffing her tea ceremony? Do I need a shot glass then? ;)
Oceanshieldwolf, to answer your questions in order: Yes. Sounds legit. That would be a little too much of a good thing. Fine in my game if you played a Roswell alien. Yes. Maybe.
i want a +5 agile returning saucer.
Flying Guillotine!
On-Topic: Using 3.5/Pathfinders Economy expectations it would fit at 500GP minimum.
Historically, most Half-Plate was given to the Elite Soldiers not the run of the mill Men-At-Arms. And even then it was owned by the kingdom. Which means they didn't really have to pay for it.
Here's a question... What level do you think a character should HAVE Half Plate?
In the core, it's like the 2nd the best armor under Full... And the price tends to reflect that. It's more powerful then Banded, but less powerful than Full...
Soooo it DOES fit that 'in-between' stage extremely well. Like all heavy armor, it has zero business on a caster or ranged character The dex penalties for all of them are fierce... but it pretty much does everything that "I" would want half-plate to do.
Lowering the price? That would make it more common... but then players would have it sooner?
Is that ideal?
I took the rich parents trait in our kingmaker game. I started with Half-plate for my paladin (cause I REALLY wanted him in SOME kind of 'PLATE') And frankly his AC is awesome...
However... the ACP is INSANE!!!! It took a few game sessions before I realized that my armor actually affects my RIDE skill... at a -6!!! -8 with my shield!!!
I'm level 3 now, and I STILL need a 20 to sucessfully 'fast dismount'. I was very annoyed about that whole mechanic, till I realized that LEVEL ONE SHOULD NOT START WITH HALF-PLATE!!!! I should me MUCH higher, and have padded some skills to COUNTER that ACP penalty!!! Rich parents is a cheesy loophole. A loophole that helped me fit the mental image for my character... but a loophole non-the-less and I freely admit it.
If the 'value' of the armor all drops... are we all willing to deal with the mechanics associated with the change? Do we WANT low level characters with ACs in the 20s? What about the OTHER characters in the party with a AC of 12 and 13... That's getting a dangerous power-creep for the DM to juggle.
Also worth mentioning... All the info on half-plate is a hold over from at LEAST 2E.
Of course in 2E it was called 'Plate Mail'... But we also had 'Field Plate and Full Plate that was more expensive than the standard Plate.
But the Arms and Equiptment book described it as this...
Description: Plate mail is a combination of chain or brigandine armor with metal plates covering the vital areas such as the chest, abdomen and groin. Similar in construction to bronze plate mail, true plate mail comprises heavy steel plates riveted to a sturdy backing of chain and leather. These metal plates are often better constructed than those found in bronze plate and banded mails, relying on superior metallurgy and advanced lamination techniques to produce a lightweight steel with excellent combat characteristics.
It also had the exact same 600gp, 50# weight to it. 1 AC better than Banded Mail, and 1 AC worse than Field plate. THAT was ABOUT the top end that could be expected.... 2000gp for Field... and 4000-10000 for true 'FULL plate'....
Also worth mentioning... All the info on half-plate is a hold over from at LEAST 2E.
Difference was, AD&D didn't cripple you for wearing armor. You hurt your thief skills... but it didn't interfere with your ability to ride a horse, defend yourself, or walk without falling over. So it being one point of AC worse than full plate wasn't that big a deal.
Here's a question... What level do you think a character should HAVE Half Plate?
If ever, at level two. And only level two, if the only limitation is the price (and not availability). However, I can't really see a character that I'd like to have it on rather than splint mail or banded mail; of the heavy armor classes, I can only see going 10 dex with the paladin and it's lousy skill points won't easily let me take acrobatics. Even if I had someone with heavy armor proficiency and no dexterity bonus, I'd rather take a splint/banded mail and 400/350 gp of potions - at 2nd level, four extra potions of enlarge person will make a big difference, probably bigger than that single +1 AC.
At 3rd level I'd go straight for full plate, if I was into heavy armors, but if I was a fighter with decent dexterity I might actually go back up to a +1 breastplate to be able to move in full speed and with far less ACP, something I find has saved me more times than +2 AC. ACP -3 is waaay better than ACP -6 and allows me to take 10 on a lot of stuff I can't otherwise.
But, like I said, I can see 4rd to 5th level mounted NPC warriors use them, though it's 50/50 between that and banded mail+lots of other stuff.
Lowering the price? That would make it more common... but then players would have it sooner?
It's so niche few would take it anyway. Personally, a +1 max dex would fix it and make sense.
I took the rich parents trait in our kingmaker game. I started with Half-plate for my paladin (cause I REALLY wanted him in SOME kind of 'PLATE') And frankly his AC is awesome...
Yeah, but anyone with rich parents is going to have a cakewalk at 1st level. At 3rd level you'll never notice you've even taken it.
However... the ACP is INSANE!!!! It took a few game sessions before I realized that my armor actually affects my RIDE skill... at a -6!!! -8 with my shield!!!
It's worse than that. It affects acrobatics. And a lot of environments you're going to be in will have acrobatics DCs of 10 or higher just to move around at more than half speed - so unless you want 10ft move speed you have to succeed on a DC10 roll, with -8 ACP.
And that isn't just in an ice cave, it includes:Cavernous areas, icy areas, stairs or slopes tilted more than 45 degrees, any surface a meter or less wide etc. And it adds up - if you want to move up a 15ft wet staircase, with -8 ACP and say +1 acrobatics, you'll have to roll 19+ on the d20.
I'm level 3 now, and I STILL need a 20 to sucessfully 'fast dismount'.
At level 3, if you get standard WBL, try to get a full plate or a +1 breastplate. A +1 breastplate only has an ACP of -3, combined with a masterwork heavy shield that's a total of -4 rather than your current -8, weight would drop by 20 lbs, and your AC would only drop one. The cost would be around 1500 gp total, compared to 1500 WBL. Or you could go for masterwork full plate + masterwork shield, landing you at -6 ACP and and +1 AC for 1800 gp.
I was very annoyed about that whole mechanic, till I realized that LEVEL ONE SHOULD NOT START WITH HALF-PLATE!!!! I should me MUCH higher, and have padded some skills to COUNTER that ACP penalty!!! Rich parents is a cheesy loophole. A loophole that helped me fit the mental image for my character... but a loophole non-the-less and I freely admit it.
It's not a loophole, it's a feature. You got a big defense bonus but got less mobile, just like the real knights*. And the reason you could do this was because you where born wealthy, just like the real knights!
I think rich parents for heavy armor is about as iconic a use as there ever was.*Not saying you can't move in heavy armor, but compared to a leather harness there's a big drop.
Do we WANT low level characters with ACs in the 20s? What about the OTHER characters in the party with a AC of 12 and 13... That's getting a dangerous power-creep for the DM to juggle.
While high AC is useful for a character to survive, it's just one defense mechanism out of many and protect against many common enemies. But it fails against a lot of other opponents or situations. In addition, if up against an intelligent enemy, if you have a huge plate mail and your party is running around in leather or less, the enemy is going to aim to take out your badly protected teammates first.
The thing is... Even if half-plate was dropped to around 400 gp, it'd still be a bad choice for most PC's, due to the ACP you mentioned above, and no dex bonus. Dexterity is one of the best stats to get at least decent in - I see few characters that start out with less than 12.
Looking at arming NPC's, here's the chart:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/npc-classes/non-player-characters#TOC-Step- 6:-Gear
Looking at the defense chart, right now the cost means it's appropriate for 4th to 5th level NPC classed characters (at 6th level I'd just go ahead and give them the fullplate), and 3-4th level PC classes characters that are NPCs. Dropping the price to 400 means it's available to 3rd level NPCs, which means a few enemies you'll meet have +1 AC over how it is now (anyone with a +1 dex or more will not benefit at all). I don't think one needs to be afraid of that.
I would prefer the max dex increasing to +1 instead though, simply because then it would open the armor up as not useless for many more people.
I've asked myself the same question not only about half-plate, but about most of the armors in the game. I'd really love to see more variety and trade off between them, rather than the present - chain shirt / breast plate / full plate as all you see for their respective levels.
I think there is room for some balancing on a table to table basis around having multiple viable armor types.
I've asked myself the same question not only about half-plate, but about most of the armors in the game. I'd really love to see more variety and trade off between them, rather than the present - chain shirt / breast plate / full plate as all you see for their respective levels.
All other armors have a niche in the fantasy world though - just not for the very elite that PC's are. Look at a common 1st level warrior with Str14/Dex11/Con13. When they gets promoted and a little more cash, it isn't obvious if they'll go with a AC+6 ACP-4 breastplate or a AC+7 ACP-7 splint mail. It depends on where and how they fight (horseback or open, flat plains? prolly splint mail. heavy forests, mountainous areas or in a city? breastplate). And say the soldiers have 150 gp or so, will they go chainmail for protection, chain shirt and a potion for mobility, or scale mail and two potions for potion power?
The difference in cost between 200 and 250 is enough to make a difference for the NPC's who are in that price group. For a PC throwing around thousands of gold and generally having a positive dex it's not as important.
When you get up to a half-plate though, the circumstances it's preferable to a banded mail and 7 (!) potions are pretty slim.
Banded Mail is indeed superior to half plate, even to PCs with rich parents. in fact, rich parents is a crappy trait once you reach 3rd level. but it turns 1st level into a cakewalk.
and while the chain shirt is the best light armor before special materials. mithril Kikko, provides everything the mithril chain shirt does, but with 1 additional point of armor class. for 2,970 gold pieces more. and it doesn't even require proficiency because there is no check penalty at all.
in fact, mithril Kikko tops the mithril chain shirt, as the best light armor in the game.
and mithril full plate is probably the best medium armor, though it requires heavy armor proficiency unless you can reduce the check penalty to 0 somehow.
not counting broken combos such as mithril celestial plate that bear +12 to AC, a +8 max dex, no check penalty, only weigh 12.5 lbs and count as light armor for everything but proficiency.
In fact, mithril Kikko tops the mithril chain shirt, as the best light armor in the game.
Unless you're worried about Arcane Spell Failure that is.
You can overcome it with Arcane Armor Training, but that's a three feat investment.
In fact, mithril Kikko tops the mithril chain shirt, as the best light armor in the game.Unless you're worried about Arcane Spell Failure that is.
You can overcome it with Arcane Armor Training, but that's a three feat investment.
mithril kikko has the same arcane failure as a mithril shirt. 10% is negligible and perfectly tolerable. even without arcane armor training.
just roll a d10 and pray you don't roll a 1. i think i am the only person here who supports putting mithril kikko on a wizard. not only does it provide AC, it provides special abilities you won't get from bracers, and if 3.5 material is allowed, there is an enchantment in PHB2 that negates the failure chance entirely.
Mithral kikko has the same arcane spell failure of a NORMAL chain shirt.
A mithral shirt has no arcane spell failure chance.
EDIT: Did you edit your post?
Mithral kikko has the same arcane spell failure of a NORMAL chain shirt.
A mithral shirt has no arcane spell failure chance.
EDIT: Did you edit your post?
a little.
Kikko and a Mithril Shirt, both normal, have a 20% failure.
make either one mithril, and now it is only 10%
according to the chart, both have a 20% arcane spell failure chance, that when made of mithril, is reduced to 10%.
Edit: both also have an armor check penalty of 0, a weight of 12.5 pounds, and otherwise count as light armor for the purpose of class features.
That's weird. Why was I thinking a mithral shirt had no ASF?
EDIT: I know. I was because in v3.5, you could get the twilight enchantment which reduced it by 10%. I got so used to people talking about that being better than bracers of armor in many cases that I just got it mixed up in my head that mithral shirts didn't have any ASF--in short being the perfect light armor for anyone.
Sorry for my mistake.
That's weird. Why was I thinking a mithral shirt had no ASF?
EDIT: I know. I was because in v3.5, you could get the twilight enchantment which reduced it by 10%. I got so used to people talking about that being better than bracers of armor in many cases that I just got it mixed up in my head that mithral shirts didn't have any ASF--in short being the perfect light armor for anyone.
Sorry for my mistake.
if you houserule 3.5 stuff, the twilight enchantment would do the same thing to Mithril Kikko it does to a Mithril Shirt.
So the only thing that keeps kikko from being supreme is its status as a medium armor and its cost.
So the only thing that keeps kikko from being supreme is its status as a medium armor and its cost.
yep. but once you forge it from mithril (the reason it is so damn expensive), you no longer need proficiency (no check penalty) and it is literally the superior chain shirt. in fact, mithril Kikko is the best light armor in the game.
in fact, mithril Kikko is the best light armor in the game.
That depends. Mithral agile breastplate is better for some characters since it's higher AC, though it has ACP -1 which means you need proficiency.
But if you have medium armor proficiency and want a light armor, maybe you're a ranger or barb and want to keep agile, a mithral breastplate might be better than a mithral kikko.
EDIT: Or if you have that armor training trait that reduces ACP by one.
EDIT2: And for arcanists who care about spell failure a haramaki is better.
Dot.