As the title says I'm planning a new campaign and want some feedback on the house rules and help. Advice on other house rules to include is more than welcome too. Spoilers below are to avoid huge walls of text and organize it some.
Note: A lot of these house rules may look familiar as they many are not originally my idea and have come from the brilliant minds of the people posting in other house rule threads on here. Thanks to you folks!
The party are heroes of divine influence (a deity ancestor, family was blessed/cursed in some way, or other...be creative) introduced to a new world. Their reasons for arriving vary greatly (accident, sent as explorer, banished...again be creative), but they have come together to survive and thrive in an unknown world while trying to achieve their own goals. This new world is unique in that if there are gods, they are not active with the people living in fear. Cults and similar things do exist and some may even draw power from a particularly powerful relic or similar but deities themselves are non-existent.
It is my intention for their tale to be told in chapters with a feeling of legends and epics (think Hercules, Gilgamesh, and similar legendary heroes). The other point of this is for a number of the group to take turns DMing the story (with at least one other GM). Each chapter will be a single tale of one of their exploits in this new world which need not take place in the same location. The world itself is meant to be unknown and open for creativity-sake and so each DM can run their story without stepping on another's toes. The outright rules of the world will be decided by those that will be DMing before we begin. Ideally every chapter will gain the party one level which gives us 20 different stories to tell or so (plus what occurs once they hit 20).
I plan to run the campaign using a combination of play by posting on the Paizo forum and meeting around once every week or two on Roll20 to handle combats and other encounters. The play by postings can also be used to fill in the time between chapters and what characters do during that free time.
- Stat Generation: Still deciding on this...know it should be fairly high to help with the lack of items. Would really prefer characters only have one 'dump' stat too though.
- Races: Any including custom (with GM approval). Characters should be able to come from any fantasy world or pantheon of deities due to the story (again, with GM approval). Races should be fair to all the other players playing too (if you want to be a half dragon we either tone you down or tone up the other characters to the approximate same strength).
- Classes: I'd like to avoid gunslinger, summoners, and ninjas (first doesn't fit the fantasy feel I'm after, second tends to slow down combat too much, ninjas have been combined with rogue into one class...see below). Most others should be fine (if you have any 3rd party ones you'd like to try let me know and I'll take a look).
- No prestige classes, characters will be created using the gestalt rules (but one class must be one of the 'godling' classes from SGG).
- Skills: May give extra skill points or a single maxed knowledge based on background for free. Still deciding on this.
- Free Feats: Agile Manoeuvres, Weapon Finesse, Heighten Spell, 2 Wpn Fighting Chain (if character qualifies with Dex Mod and BAB which includes: Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Greater Two Weapon Fighting)
- Banned Feats: Leadership (5-6 players with potential pets is enough for me to deal with in a given combat...though I may allow one party controlled NPC to join), Antagonize (even with revisions I'm a little leery of this one)
- One feat every level (outside feats gained as bonus by classes)
- Max HP gained every level
-Alignment: No evil characters please. It is meant to be a heroic campaign and your characters should be inclined or have reason to help others.
-Traits: You'll be given two traits based on your character and their background information you provide.
- Mythic Rules will be used but will be subject to heavy scrutiny and are likely to change from their current form as they are still in testing as well.
Rogue/Ninja:
I had the entire table in here but essentially it is as the Rogue table with these changes:
1 - Select Trapfinding or Poison Use (as Ninja)
2 - Gain 'Cunning' (See below)
3 - Select Trap Sense or No Trace (as Ninja, these advance as usual once selected)
6 - Gain Light Steps (per Ninja)
20 - Gain Master Strike or Hidden Master (as Ninja)
Whenever a rogue selects a "Rogue Talent" he can instead select a Ninja Trick (and Master Tricks after 10th level).
Proficiencies: Same as Rogue (if fitting character, you may get others as a trait).
CUNNING:
Instead of a ki pool, the rogue gets a pool of "cunning." This ability is entirely Ex and uses either Int or Cha (chosen at first level of rogue and cannot be changed). It can be used to the following effects:
— Cheap Shot: By expending one use of his cunning, a rogue can make one additional attack at his highest attack bonus, but he can do so only when making a full attack. Using this ability is a swift action.
— Unfair Combatant: By expending one use of his cunning, a rogue can make a dirty trick or steal combat maneuver against any target he has dealt sneak attack damage to this turn, using his rogue level in place of his base attack bonus. This does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Using this ability is a free action.
— Slip through Shadow: By spending one use of his cunning, a rogue can gain a +4 insight bonus to Stealth for 1 round. This is a swift action.
Caster Changes:
- Spontaneous casters gain one additional spell known and spell cast-able per day than their charts state.
- All other casters gain one additional spell cast-able per day than their charts state.
- Hero Point System will be used with some tweaks (gained only from heroic actions, achieving goals, and storyline)
- 'Items Slot System': Planning to have somewhat limited items slots. Characters can only wear the following - Weapon, Shield/Offhand Weapon, Armor/Clothing, Helmet/Hat/Hood, Accessory (...maybe 2 accessories, still deciding. Accessories include boots, gloves, misc items. Additionally, all items would be more powerful as a side result since you are more limited in the number you can wear ie. A protection ring may grant bonuses to natural and deflection AC)
- Masterwork items can be more powerful than a simple +1 to attack. Example: An exceptionally crafted blade could be incredibly balanced and deadly (+3 enhancement, but does not count as magical) and also incredibly sharp (keen, also not inherently magical). Obviously some abilities can't be added to weapons like this (Ex. Flaming) since they come from an entirely magical source.
- Auto 20s: Whenever a 20 is rolled for an attack it is considered automatically a hit and critical (no confirmation required). For any other roll that threatens (a 19 on a Longsword for instance) a critical, a confirmation must be rolled to confirm
- No Massive Damage: Self explanatory
-Roll initiative using a d12: Gives Imp Init and all other init-based abilities a little more oomph.
- Every one that shows up to the game on time gets one re-roll during the game.
- Alignments: Still not sure how to handle these entirely. I'd like to do away with them but don't want to horribly impact Paladin or similar abilities.
- Deadly Aim: Gives -1/+3 to all crossbows except hand crossbows
- Acrobatics: Allows someone with at least 1 rank in the skill to attempt to leap to their feet as a swift action (DC 15), although this still provokes attacks of opportunity. Normally standing up is a move action that provokes attacks of opportunity.
- Breath of Life: Renamed Cure Deadly Wounds so that it can be considered one of the "cure" spell line. Normally this spell does not allow any of the abilities that apply to "cure" spells to apply.
- Spell Rarity: Basically, not all spells are equally well-known. Spells from the CRB are "common," and can be freely chosen. Spells from any other Paizo published source are "rare," meaning that they cannot be automatically picked: a PC needs to either encounter a rare spell first-hand, or create it by independent spell research.
- Roleplay to Re-Spec: Any permanent character decisions, including feats, level/class selection, skill apportionment, etc. can by changed at any time. The character must express frustration with the choice in-game (or via email if appropriate) and resolve to try a different approach. The change may include some in-game actions, such as seeking out a new weapon to use.
- Reduced Attacks Per Round: Reduces the number of attacks with BAB but ups the attack bonuses
I.E.
At BAB +6 you get 2 attacks at +4 BAB each
At BAB +11 you get 2 attacks at +10 BAB each
At BAB +16 you get 2 attacks at +16 BAB each.
- Spell-Point System: I'd like to use SGG's spellpoint system, though I'm rather hesitant to add more complexity with everything else honestly.
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So, you are going to give the characters (and I assume the monsters) all this extra power, but the only mention of hit points is that they get max at each level. This means that the hit points will be low compared to the amount of power being thrown around. If you decide to challenge the players during the combats (without fudging), it will make it very dangerous. If you throw normal monsters at them, they will walk all over them. Is this really what you are looking for?
Not quite, no. The idea at least is to give the players enough abilities, power, and options that they don't need to rely entirely on a ton of very magical (and rather mundane) loot. I'm talking the +5 ring, +5 amulet, +6 Stat items. That is why the bonuses from being Gestalt, higher starting stats than average, an extra feat every level, eventually mythic rules, and more. The idea is that the players should feel mighty without getting rolled over by your average enemy (and not just because of whatever magical trinkets they are wearing).
The only time they would probably fight similar is running into another group like themselves (god touched heroes) which I did have planned but was meant to be extremely rare. Monsters in general would be augmented with templates and the mythic rules (or using higher CRs). Also that is only when they should be challenged by something, your average animal or person in this world isn't meant to be a challenge unless they come in hundreds at them.
Are you suggesting more Hitpoints might be in order for this kind of play? Keep in mind they'll be getting the maxed HP of the higher hit dice class they pick too so most shouldn't be too squishy. Early on though a buffer of another free 5-10 HP I wouldn't mind tossing them either though.
Thanks for the input. I will be adding Point Blank Shot and Power Attack to the free feat list. As for the campaign, I mentioned in the notes the plan was to run it with a combination of a VTT(likely Roll20) and by PbP (here on Paizo). Regardless, this isn't the recruitment thread and I'm far from being ready to run it. Hence the asking for advice on ironing out the house rules first.
Virtual Table Top. Maptools and Roll20 are examples (a search on google will bring them up quickly and both of those are free to use). They allow you to run a program that creates essentially a Pen and Paper experience online.
That is an excellent link and I'll look into it a bit more. That might do exactly what I want without needing to implement so many other house-rules. I was worried it was getting a bit too complex...
Reducing the number of iterative attacks is going to seriously cut into your martial players' damage at higher levels. I didn't notice any mention of what level you'd be starting them out at, so this may not be an issue. I wouldn't make a decision like this lightly.
Also, what kind of effects will it have on the mechanics if you have a +3 masterwork sword with a +1 bonus? Were I you, I would consider instead changing the fluff of the weapon rather than the crunch. Just tell your players that the +3 weapon they found was forged by a smith whose esoteric methods and strange blue forgefires produce steel that holds such an edge that it can cut water. Some crap like that. I don't know what your reasons, but I would almost be willing to bet you that it isn't worth the headache of trying to work out a different system for the current enhancements and abilities when fluff will do the work for you.
I allow my players to take average hit points (half the size of the hit die) before they roll any dice, but once they roll, they're stuck with it. I also have started giving character feats at even levels as well as odd levels, along with a list of free feats (weapon finesse, power attack, and deadly aim among them).
You have a huge point on the reducing of iterative attacks. Nerfing melee and martial is the last thing I want to do so I'll be nixing that.
Changing the fluff is a lot less headache so I think I'll take your advice there too. I had already considered giving out more feats and didn't see it making any huge issues. I'll also add Deadly Aim to the free feats. It had slipped my mind but it only seems fair if I give out Power Attack to give it out too.
Thanks for the good advice!
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Try this one instead! This was back after 3.5e ended and just before PF. Math should (more or less) still apply! Check out Trailblazer for more. Note, the vital strike chain of feats I added for my PF game. Provides even more damage balance for martial when they have a single attack.
This house rule was sourced from Trailblazer (pdf) and reduces the number of attacks rolled in combat at higher levels to speed game play and also results in an increase of damage by 15% across the majority of all foes for martial characters. No other changes are made and other means for gaining additional attacks apply as normal, such as the Two Weapon Fighting feat.
- At BAB +6, you gain a 2nd attack but both attacks suffer a -2 penalty; Gain the Vital Strike feat.
- At BAB +11, this penalty is reduced to -1/-1; Gain the Improved Vital Strike feat.
- At BAB +16, this penalty is reduced to -0/-0; Gain the Greater Vital Strike feat.
No prestige classes
This one is a little odd; do you have any reason for it? Your above rules are on the liberal side, but this one goes overboard in the other direction.
Skills: May give extra skill points or a single maxed knowledge based on background for free. Still deciding on this.
I don't really see the purpose here, especially with a high point buy. If someone chooses to dump intelligence while running on 2-per-level skill points (on a gestalt, no less), then they should live with it.
Free Feats: Agile Manoeuvres, Weapon Finesse, Heighten Spell, 2 Wpn Fighting Chain (if character qualifies with Dex Mod and BAB which includes: Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Greater Two Weapon Fighting)
I'm with you up to the TWF chain; that might be a little on the overboard side. You may as well add Improved Counterspell to the list, not that it's likely anyone will use it. I offer a 2-for-1 on weaker feats in my games, which would be something you might consider in keeping with these other rules.
One feat every level (outside feats gained as bonus by classes)
Wow, that's going to be a lot of feats.
Given the huge amount of power creep these rules cause together, I'd tread a little carefully if I were you. It's not necessarily a problem, but it definitely has the potential to be one.
Try this one instead! This was back after 3.5e ended and just before PF. Math should (more or less) still apply! Check out Trailblazer for more. Note, the vital strike chain of feats I added for my PF game. Provides even more damage balance for martial when they have a single attack.
This house rule was sourced from Trailblazer (pdf) and reduces the number of attacks rolled in combat at higher levels to speed game play and also results in an increase of damage by 15% across the majority of all foes for martial characters. No other changes are made and other means for gaining additional attacks apply as normal, such as the Two Weapon Fighting feat.
- At BAB +6, you gain a 2nd attack but both attacks suffer a -2 penalty; Gain the Vital Strike feat.
- At BAB +11, this penalty is reduced to -1/-1; Gain the Improved Vital Strike feat.
- At BAB +16, this penalty is reduced to -0/-0; Gain the Greater Vital Strike feat.
Is this not still a rather large nerf to martial characters? They are losing at least two attacks per round (not to mention a penalty on their attack rolls when making more than one). Does the damage gain from vital strike on single attacks really equal out losing those extra attacks?
This one is a little odd; do you have any reason for it? Your above rules are on the liberal side, but this one goes overboard in the other direction.
I honestly hadn't seen a need for prestige classes and figured trying to combine them with the gestalt rules could be confusing. Anything your average prestige class can do I thought would be able to be replicated fairly easily with a combination of most base classes available. Definitely willing to rethink that if not the case, though.
I don't really see the purpose here, especially with a high point buy. If someone chooses to dump intelligence while running on 2-per-level skill points (on a gestalt, no less), then they should live with it.
My thinking was along the same lines and gestalt itself will really be helping out. I just hadn't made up my mind, but I definitely think you have a point here.
I'm with you up to the TWF chain; that might be a little on the overboard side. You may as well add Improved Counterspell to the list, not that it's likely anyone will use it. I offer a 2-for-1 on weaker feats in my games, which would be something you might consider in keeping with these other rules.
The reason for the TWF chain was pretty simple. I've never actually had someone TWF in either of my previous campaigns. Potentially it is just the players but...I wasn't sure. It really is feat intensive for little payoff compared to two handing a big weapon.
Wow, that's going to be a lot of feats.Given the huge amount of power creep these rules cause together, I'd tread a little carefully if I were you. It's not necessarily a problem, but it definitely has the potential to be one.
That said, I definitely doubt I need both the free TWF feats AND a feat every level. You have a point in that is probably overkill and would really cause some power creep. Thinking maybe I should keep one or the other but not both. Personally leaning toward the feat every level and removing the free TWF feats but willing to hear thoughts.
I honestly hadn't seen a need for prestige classes and figured trying to combine them with the gestalt rules could be confusing. Anything your average prestige class can do I thought would be able to be replicated fairly easily with a combination of most base classes available. Definitely willing to rethink that if not the case, though.
It's really what your players want. If no one cares, then no one cares. If someone wants to use a PRC, I don't feel there's a good reason to say no.
The reason for the TWF chain was pretty simple. I've never actually had someone TWF in either of my previous campaigns. Potentially it is just the players but...I wasn't sure.
They're a little tricky to build and quite feat intensive, but TWF characters do work. I'd say you're probably fine with the one-feat-per-level since sucking up the feat tax will be fairly easy for these characters. If your players just aren't interested in making dual-wielders, don't feel you need force it on them. Just introduce a NPC or antagonist at some point if you feel you want to showcase two-weapon fighting.
Good points on both and I concur.
I did mean to ask, when you offer the ' 2-for-1 on weaker feats' can you give some examples of that? Not entirely sure what you mean.
I did mean to ask, when you offer the ' 2-for-1 on weaker feats' can you give some examples of that? Not entirely sure what you mean.
Ultimately it's GM discretion; I don't have a hard-and-fast list, as this sort of thing is ripe for abuse. Except for the TWF ones, all of the feats you listed as freebies are on my 2 for 1 list. Off the top of my head I also offer 2 for 1 on endurance, diehard, fleet, run, most meta-magic feats, craft wand, and brew potion.
I tend to be a little more generous when players are picking feats that don't stack. For instance, for someone taking weapon focus in two different weapons I might give him a 2 for 1 deal on his second weapon focus feat.
Is this not still a rather large nerf to martial characters? They are losing at least two attacks per round (not to mention a penalty on their attack rolls when making more than one). Does the damage gain from vital strike on single attacks really equal out losing those extra attacks?
The idea is that the damage evens out from not having an attack penalty. In 3.5, it more or less evened out (an attack routine of +18/+13/+8/+3 did about as high DPR as +18/+18 against most enemies). I don't know if that applies to PF though, as % chance to hit might have changed.
Reducing the number of iterative attacks in the trailblazer method still works and actually increases the average DPR by a slight amount over the normal methodology with exceptions at the extremes (where all attacks hit on anything but a 1 or all attacks require a 20 to hit).
Basically having more iterative attacks helps in those situations where you always hit or almost never hit but tend to miss a bunch in most normal situations. The benefits of not having to track 3-4 different dice for to hit situations is nice.
The only advice I would have is to go ahead and use trailblazers TWF rules in place of the default rules.
Other than that I am concerned that you houserules definitely favor the SAD casters by a massive margin due to the needs of martial characters for the big 6 items. With the ability to buff with spells and less dependence on items most casters are going to be significantly advantaged.
One thing you might do if gear is problematic is to give everyone inherent bonuses at certain points to represent needed items. That way boring yet critical items (cloaks of resistance, rings of protection, etc) still show up in player stats without having to have the christmas tree effect.
Does it work equally well for different classes/builds/degrees of optimization though?
Reducing the number of iterative attacks in the trailblazer method still works and actually increases the average DPR by a slight amount over the normal methodology with exceptions at the extremes (where all attacks hit on anything but a 1 or all attacks require a 20 to hit).
Basically having more iterative attacks helps in those situations where you always hit or almost never hit but tend to miss a bunch in most normal situations. The benefits of not having to track 3-4 different dice for to hit situations is nice.
The only advice I would have is to go ahead and use trailblazers TWF rules in place of the default rules.
Other than that I am concerned that you houserules definitely favor the SAD casters by a massive margin due to the needs of martial characters for the big 6 items. With the ability to buff with spells and less dependence on items most casters are going to be significantly advantaged.
One thing you might do if gear is problematic is to give everyone inherent bonuses at certain points to represent needed items. That way boring yet critical items (cloaks of resistance, rings of protection, etc) still show up in player stats without having to have the christmas tree effect.
Good information. I'll definitely take it into account when I present it to the players recruited. In a way it does make sense since you are getting two attacks but at your full bonus which means a much higher chance to hit (and thus actually do the damage).
As mentioned, I'm afraid that SAD casters are getting the biggest benefit from these rules. I really don't want that to be the case if I can help it. I do think the Gestalt rules would help in giving everyone the ability to fill multiple roles, but I'm not sure it is enough.
Someone above did post a link to a semi-feat system for granting additional bonuses and avoiding the boring yet critical items. I think that might be the right away to go about it honestly since my intention is really not to nerf the martial characters in favor of casters.
Thanks for the advice guys! Finding everyone's views very helpful and insightful!