|
The base weapon is a +1 Short Sword. There is a secret opening in the bottom of the blade's hilt that can only be detected by someone closely examining the blade on a DC 25 Perception check. Inside is a reservoir that holds a single dose of injury or contact poison; filling the reservoir with poison is the same action as applying poison to a weapon. 5 times a day, as a swift action, the wielder can coat the blade with a dose of the poison held within the reservoir without consuming it. The weapon also increases the DC to resist any poison coating it by +2.
Thoughts/Suggestions?
Why 5/day (at which point it seems like it should kind of be "at will")? What pricing alteration are you using? What's the base spells for making the effect? Does coating the weapon use up the poison inside? What happens to the poison, if shatter is used on the weapon (does it leak)?
Neat idea.
|
|
Why 5/day (at which point it seems like it should kind of be "at will")?
I wanted it to be useful but limited. 1/day is pretty much useless, 3/day I felt was being stingy, but I didn't want it to be at-will because then you could always have your weapon poisoned every round, which I felt was a too powerful. I'm willing to listen to other suggestions.
What pricing alteration are you using?
Not sure. I was looking at somewhere between 32,000 and 50,000g.
I could always drop down the enhancement bonus to +1, but I'm not sure how to price the combination of Swift Poisoning/Increased Poison DC/Not consuming poison. I'm thinking it should be close to a +2 to +3 enchantment.
EDIT: I went ahead and dropped the enhancement bonus to +1 because I want this to be focusing on the abilities, not the enhancement bonus. Was silly to make it any higher than minimum for that purpose so I fixed it.
What's the base spells for making the effect?
I was thinking Poison and Fabricate. Although those are arcane and divine spells.
Does coating the weapon use up the poison inside?
No, see above.
What happens to the poison, if shatter is used on the weapon (does it leak)?
Unsure, hadn't considered that. I would say there is a % chance that you are expose to the poison, similar to failing on applying it to a weapon.
Thank you for taking the time to read and comment :)
I wanted it to be useful but limited. 1/day is pretty much useless, 3/day I felt was being stingy, but I didn't want it to be at-will because then you could always have your weapon poisoned every round, which I felt was a too powerful. I'm willing to listen to other suggestions.
Well, reference times/day, here's the thing: with normal pricing guidelines, there really isn't any difference between 5/day and At Will. That means that you're basically putting a limit on it for no other purpose than it "feels right". Which is understandable and totally okay! But I'm just clarifying to you, that it's unusual and, by standard pricing guidelines, a little on the "pay too much to get too little" side.
Generally uses/day lowers the price by...
{[base price]/(5/uses per day)},
...so if you have five uses per day, that's...
{[base price]/(5/5)} or {[base price]/1} = base price,
... as if it weren't limited uses per day. The base price is presumed to be for unlimited uses per day, or based on the total charges an item has, if it's a spell-trigger (among other things, which leads me too the next quote, but first...).
That means that once per day is basically 1/5 the price (divide by five), twice per day is 2/5 the price (divide by [5/2] which equal multiplying by 2/5), three times per day is 3/5 the price (as above), and four times per day is 4/5 the price. Five times per day is the same as unlimited uses.
Price?
Not sure. I was looking at somewhere between 32,000 and 50,000g.
I could always drop down the enhancement bonus to +1, but I'm not sure how to price the combination of Swift Poisoning/Increased Poison DC/Not consuming poison. I'm thinking it should be close to a +2 to +3 enchantment.
EDIT: I went ahead and dropped the enhancement bonus to +1 because I want this to be focusing on the abilities, not the enhancement bonus. Was silly to make it any higher than minimum for that purpose so I fixed it.
First of all, good on you! I like the idea of a +1 bonus a bit better.
Also, reference the price, let's again look at the guidelines, and the spells you chose.
I was thinking Poison and Fabricate. Although those are arcane and divine spells.
So, Fabricate and Poison. While Poison is clearly both arcane and divine, fabricate is a little iffy... the divine portion is relegated only to a specific domain, which is a bit difficult to accept. Poison, on the other hand, while on the list of a base arcane spellcasting class is only "arcane" for the witch, a class notorious for getting some divine mixed up in its arcane. So, in the end, I'd recommend not requiring those two spells together as the combination for creating your item. Instead, let's try to find an appropriate set of spells that works for a base class, regardless of unusual choices that a character might make.
I think I most strongly agree with the Poison spell, as it fits the bill of "useful" and "thematic". While I see what you were going for with Fabricate, I think that it's just dropping something that doesn't need to be there in the mix. That leaves us with clerics, oracles, druids, and witches (of which, druids would be kind of ideal for low-cost creation, but not terribly likely to have magic item creation feats).
After (briefly) scanning the cleric/oracle spell list, the druid spell list, and the witch spell list, I came up with:
Cleric/Oracle: well, it's a stretch, but you could try to persuade the GM that Abundant Ammunition works with this, as, after all, it is, technically speaking, "ammunition", if not exactly what the spell indicates.
Druid: oh, wow, this worked out far better than I thought. Between Accelerate Poison, and Pernicious Poison, this spell list is rife with potentially-poison stuff. Really delicious, actually. Also, for flavor, with this spell list Acrid Fang could be a sickle (and really, how often to you see a magic sickle?). Both of these spells are on the sorcerer/wizard list, too, so if you desperately wanted to go that route (and I know how much you like your wizards!), you could try it without the poison spell (see why, below).
Witch: the first spell I thought of, when I started this, does happen to be on the witch's list: Minor Creation. That's pretty much exactly what you need fluff-wise, too, to "create" stuff on the fly. The small bonus for this spell is that if the cleric chooses the Artifice domain, they, too, can create an Acrid Fang. This allows this to happen, but require it strictly to a very specific choice of a certain class or class combination. The witch also has Pernicious Poison, which is the most relevant of the two druid spells (increasing the poison DC). This is the route I most lean towards, personally.
The cost of spell-use (or similar abilities) is (spell level x caster level x [variable]) where the "[variable]" depends on what the base difficulty and the number of over-all uses an item has: once and spell-completion (25g), once and use-activate (50g), 50 charges/spell trigger (750g), command word (1,800g), or use activated/continuous (2,000g).
Unless you have specific reason not to, I'd recommend using the command word for a lower price. The rest of the pricing is determined based on what other spells we choose over-all.
As to what happens to the poison, I admit I missed that in the original post! Sorry!
I'm also going to recommend something slightly different than what you started off with. I'm going to recommend that it does consume the poison, when used, but that it still allows the poison (with a +4 increase to the DC because of how Pernicious Poison works) to be used several times thereafter. In exchange, the cost is decreased by 5-10% due to repeatedly requiring expensive material components that aren't part of the item's "spellcasting".
In reality, the vial is only partially being used up, but it's kind of like a poisonous version of the miracle of the five loaves and two fishes: a single vial of poison instead provides multiple uses.
Now the charges/day has some merit. The most we can have and still reduce the price would be 4/day. After that, it's just as much as we want (but we pay full price), so I'd recommend going with 4/day. A GM might see fit to rule 5/day (I actually would and I'd price it at the 4/day price, but I'm permissive), but RAW recommendation is 4/day.
What happens to the poison, if shatter is used on the weapon (does it leak)?Unsure, hadn't considered that. I would say there is a % chance that you are expose to the poison, similar to failing on applying it to a weapon.
I'd recommend forcing a fortitude or reflex save (I'm oscillating between the two) for the item using the caster level-based bonus or the wielder's bonus, whichever is better. Upon a failure, I'd say the vial shatters, recommend a 10% chance to poison the wielder. Equally problematic would be cleaning out the container afterwords! (Though Mage Hand to get the glass out and to stuff the thing with mashed potatoes and using Purify Food and Drink on it, followed by Prestidigitation to get it clean should suffice :D).
Thank you for taking the time to read and comment :)
You're welcome! I'll comment more tomorrow if I can. For tonight: good night, God bless you, and have a great life! :)
P.S. Acquire a masterwork Alchemist's Lab. Enchant it with fabricate 3/day. Enjoy the win. Also, if this is for a wizard to craft, get wands. They're cheap. Use Identify. Thus you have the command words for the wands, and you have plenty of spells of any kind for making this thing as a wizard.
|
|
I should clarify, this isn't for me, but rather for a player in a home game I am GMing. He wants to use poisons but is frustrated by how expensive and inefficient they are. I sympathize with his frustrations, so I was working on this to surprise him. That being said, not a fool and wanted to make sure his new toy was balanced.
Well, reference times/day, here's the thing: with normal pricing guidelines, there really isn't any difference between 5/day and At Will.
I see what you mean now. I'm hesitant to allow it to be used at-will, considering the other effects of the weapon, which I think are quite powerful and I want to keep.
A bunch of good advice on spells
I had not thought of Pernicious Poison! I like the idea of Pernicious Poison and Minor Creation actually. Pernicious Poison represents the poison buff and Minor Creation the extension of the poison. The Poison spell itself isn't really needed because the user is providing the poison.
I'm also going to recommend something slightly different than what you started off with. I'm going to recommend that it does consume the poison, when used, but that it still allows the poison (with a +4 increase to the DC because of how Pernicious Poison works) to be used several times thereafter. In exchange, the cost is decreased by 5-10% due to repeatedly requiring expensive material components that aren't part of the item's "spellcasting".
In reality, the vial is only partially being used up, but it's kind of like a poisonous version of the miracle of the five loaves and two fishes: a single vial of poison instead provides multiple uses.
Now the charges/day has some merit. The most we can have and still reduce the price would be 4/day. After that, it's just as much as we want (but we pay full price), so I'd recommend going with 4/day. A GM might see fit to rule 5/day (I actually would and I'd price it at the 4/day price, but I'm permissive), but RAW recommendation is 4/day.
I like this. I had considered something similar when designing it, but had talked myself out of it, but looks you you may have reversed that. It's nice because you don't have to constantly spend swift actions and you can justify the +4 to the poison DC because it consumes the poison. 4/day
I'd recommend forcing a fortitude or reflex save (I'm oscillating between the two) for the item using the caster level-based bonus or the wielder's bonus, whichever is better. Upon a failure, I'd say the vial shatters, recommend a 10% chance to poison the wielder. Equally problematic would be cleaning out the container afterwords! (Though Mage Hand to get the glass out and to stuff the thing with mashed potatoes and using Purify Food and Drink on it, followed by Prestidigitation to get it clean should suffice :D).
Well, now that I think about it more, not sure Shatter would work, since the poison is contained within the magic weapon and shatter only affects non-magical objects.
I would say that in instances where your weapon is destroyed, the wielder must make a save against the base poison.
Here is a rebuild of the weapon with your suggestions
Slot none; Price 50,262 gp; Weight 2 lb.
DESCRIPTION
This +1 short sword has a secret opening in the bottom of the blade's hilt that can only be detected by someone closely examining the blade on a DC 25 Perception check. Inside is a reservoir that holds a single dose of injury or contact poison; filling the reservoir with poison is the same action as applying poison to a weapon. As a swift action, the user may speak the command word and coat the blade with the poison stored in the reservoir, consuming the poison. The poison becomes sticky and lasts for 4 strikes before being used up. The blade also increases the DC to resit any poison applied to it by +4.
Construction
Requirements Craft Magic Arms and Armor, pernicious poison, minor creation; Cost 25,131 gp
Not sure if I got the costs totally right, but it seems like a good price just eyeballing it. Also unsure on the caster level.
Trying to decide if I need to call out that it doesn't stack with Alchemist's sticky poison or if I should let it. No alchemists in the current group, but you never know.
I should clarify, this isn't for me, but rather for a player in a home game I am GMing. He wants to use poisons but is frustrated by how expensive and inefficient they are. I sympathize with his frustrations, so I was working on this to surprise him. That being said, not a fool and wanted to make sure his new toy was balanced.
Got it! I understand how that can be. :)
One rule that I use for poisons (though I don't recall how RAW it is) is the concept of "masterwork" poisons: if you have a masterwork alchemy kit, you can exceed the DC to make a poison by 5 and thus make a masterwork poison, increasing the DC by +2. That might help your friend, too.
Reference price, masterwork poison doesn't actually increase the cost in our games, though if you wanted it to, I could easily see the argument being made for it costing up to double the normal price (the same as two applications/exposures to poison increasing the DC by +2).
Well, reference times/day, here's the thing: with normal pricing guidelines, there really isn't any difference between 5/day and At Will.
I see what you mean now. I'm hesitant to allow it to be used at-will, considering the other effects of the weapon, which I think are quite powerful and I want to keep.
Fair enough. :)
A bunch of good advice on spells
()
I had not thought of Pernicious Poison! I like the idea of Pernicious Poison and Minor Creation actually. Pernicious Poison represents the poison buff and Minor Creation the extension of the poison. The Poison spell itself isn't really needed because the user is providing the poison.
I'm very okay with going this route myself, because, as you said, the poison itself is supplied by the bearer.
I'm also going to recommend something slightly different than what you started off with. I'm going to recommend that it does consume the poison, when used, but that it still allows the poison (with a +4 increase to the DC because of how Pernicious Poison works) to be used several times thereafter. In exchange, the cost is decreased by 5-10% due to repeatedly requiring expensive material components that aren't part of the item's "spellcasting".
In reality, the vial is only partially being used up, but it's kind of like a poisonous version of the miracle of the five loaves and two fishes: a single vial of poison instead provides multiple uses.
Now the charges/day has some merit. The most we can have and still reduce the price would be 4/day. After that, it's just as much as we want (but we pay full price), so I'd recommend going with 4/day. A GM might see fit to rule 5/day (I actually would and I'd price it at the 4/day price, but I'm permissive), but RAW recommendation is 4/day.
... and...
Not sure if I got the costs totally right, but it seems like a good price just eyeballing it. Also unsure on the caster level.
So!
4th lvl spell x 7th CL x 1,800 = 50,400
2nd lvl spell x 3rd CL x 1,800 = 10,800 x 1.5 = 16,200
--> 66,600+ x (4/5) = 53,280
+1 weapon = 2,000
--> 2,000 + 53,280 = 55,280
5-10% discount [5% discount = 55,280 - 2,188 = 52,616]
So the price would likely be 52,616 gold, while the cost to create would be 26,308 gold.
I admit, I may have cheated on the caster level a bit. I used the base caster level for the spells required to get the price down (you can always choose to make things with a lower caster level than your own, so long as the lower caster level can cast the spell), but I'm not sure if all the caster level costs for an effect need to be of the same caster level... in which case the pernicious poison (2nd lvl spell) should be "x 7th CL" instead of "x 3rd CL". This would increase that line of cost to 25,200 instead of 10,800, but I'd drop the "x 1.5 for multiple abilities" modifier in that case, myself (but I can't speak for others or what they would do, or the RAW: I'm unclear). That nets a total increase of price by 14,400 gold (to 67,016 gold) and the cost to make by 7,200 gold (to 33,508 gold).
Anyway, it looks like you eyeballed about a 10% discount, which I'm actually okay with. While this is very powerful, it's not the most powerful effect, and I'm a fan of generally using lower prices unless otherwise given strong reason not to.
Well, now that I think about it more, not sure Shatter would work, since the poison is contained within the magic weapon and shatter only affects non-magical objects.
I would say that in instances where your weapon is destroyed, the wielder must make a save against the base poison.
That's fair! I was guessing that because the vial itself wasn't magic, but that magic items received a save when they were affected by something, I'd blend the two rules. Still, it's up to you (I'm really unable to say about the balance, myself)!
Using my original, lower (but still higher than yours) price...
Aura faint necromancy and moderate conjuration; CL 7th
Slot none; Price 52,616 gp; Weight 2 lb.
DESCRIPTION
This +1 short sword has a secret opening in the bottom of the blade's hilt that can only be detected by someone closely examining the blade on a DC 25 Perception check. Inside is a reservoir that holds a single dose of injury or contact poison; filling the reservoir with poison is the same action as applying poison to a weapon. As a swift action, the user may speak the command word and coat the blade with the poison stored in the reservoir, consuming the poison. The poison becomes sticky and lasts for 4 strikes before being used up. The blade also increases the DC to resit any poison applied to it by +4.
Construction
Requirements Craft Magic Arms and Armor, pernicious poison, minor creation; Cost 26,308 gp
Although I used my prices from the math up there, feel free not to! I just dropped them in because that's what I have the solid math for. I do prefer your price, however, and maybe even a little lower (somewhere in the 48,000 gold range) just because this isn't a game-breaking power house of an item, just really useful.
Trying to decide if I need to call out that it doesn't stack with Alchemist's sticky poison or if I should let it. No alchemists in the current group, but you never know.
Personally, I'd let it, but then again, I am permissive. It would require some adjucating on your part, and you may have to decide what gets used up "first" - the weapon-made stickies or the alchemist-made ones - which could be a strange call to make, and whether it adds or multiplies. I think RAI would tend to lean against it, honestly, but I'm all for it, as sticky poison is a sixth-level-minimum ability (incidentally, I'd probably rule the alchemist's personal stuff got used up "first", and it adds - both for simple game balance even while being permissive).
Reference a previous suggestion I made:
Alchemist's Kit (25g, 5lbs) --> Masterwork 90 gold, 8 lbs
Command Word Activation: spell level x caster level x 1,800
Minor Creation [4th lvl spell] (minimum CL 7)
Fabricate [5th lvl spell] (minimum CL 9)
Animate Objects [6th lvl spell] (minimum CL 11)
--> 4x7x1,800 = 50,400 <at will>
-->5x9x1,800 = 81,000 <4/day: x(4/5)> = 64,800
-->6x11x1,800 = 118,800 <2/day: x (2/5)> = 47,520
No space limitation: x2
64.8+47.52+50.4 = 162.72 (162,720)
Intelligent Ability Scores: 16 INT, 12 WIS, 10 CHA = 2,500 gold
(Alignment = creator's), capable of speech (+500 gold) [language = creator's], senses 30ft, 10 ranks in craft (alchemy) and 5 ranks in profession (herbalist) (+12,500 gold)
12500+500+2500+162720 = 178,220
Enjoy having an alchemists lab that can create anything you'd want (including poisons) whenever you want it to while you do other things (or, if you're in a hurry, up to four things instantly). You can turn the thing on or off once per day by command word. It has a craft (alchemy) score of +20 (10 ranks, +3 class skill, +3 intelligence modifier, +2 masterwork kit, +2 synergy bonus from 5 ranks of profession (herbalist)), meaning that it can craft most alchemical goods automatically (regardless of check), and those that it can't it succeeds on a check of 5 or more. If you want to go the extra mile and add Crafter's Fortune for a mere 2,000 gold (1st lvl spell x 1st caster level x 2,000), it cannot ever fail to make anything (except purple worm poison on d20 rolls of 1, 2, or 3) and it can make masterwork variations of anything on a roll of 5 or higher (again, except purple worm poison, which requires a roll of 9 or higher).
It's ego is a mere 10 (or 11), which should be rather easy to overcome for a decent caster of the level required to craft it, or a cleric or druid at second level or higher (or fourth level, with crafter's fortune, which, in retrospect I highly suggest you add). Further, its ego only applies while it's awake (and you can turn it on or off with a command word).
With Crafter's Fortune:
180,220 gold price (cost to make 90,110), craft (alchemy) bonus of +25
If you don't want to have fabricate, it will drop the price a lot (by 129,600 gold for a much more manageable total price of 50,620 - in games, as in life, impatience has its price!), but you'll have to wait for a while for stuff to get done. Still, it might be totally worth it (and you can always retool and add stuff like the fabricate spell later).
Anyway, peace to you, sir, and God's blessing upon you!
EDIT: spelling. :)
Glad to!