|
| 15 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Question unclear. 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The Titan Mauler archetype available for the barbarian has some often disputed abilities. I'm particularly interested in getting an FAQ/errata on the massive weapons ability. Jason Nelson has declared his intent in creating the archetype to allow the character to wield two handed weapons of size categories larger than itself, not too far away from the monkey grip feat from 3.5.
The problem with this is that the wording does not actually give the character to wield a weapon larger than itself, it merely reduces the penalties for the existing oversized weapons rule:
At 3rd level, a titan mauler becomes skilled in the use of massive weapons looted from her titanic foes. The attack roll penalty for using weapons too large for her size is reduced by 1, and this reduction increases by 1 for every three levels beyond 3rd (to a minimum of 0).
This ability replaces trap sense.
With this wording, this is an ability that would never be used. Attempting to utilize this ability would actually be a detriment to the character. A medium sized character could wield a medium greatsword (2d6)with no penalty, or a large longsword (2d6) at a -1 penalty at level 3. Again, at level 9 the penalties are reduced further, so that a medium sized character could wield a huge shortsword (2d6) two handed at a -1 penalty to attack.
The Titan Mauler's Massive Weapons ability is an overall detriment to the character as replaces Trap Sense, an ability that actually has functionality. I'm requesting that some FAQ or Errata can be posted on this class archetype. Firstly to clear up the confusion on this ability, a quick search will show that this question has been asked many times over, showing that the wording of this ability does contradict its intention. Secondly it is my hope that any official response to this ability would make this archetype useful.
If you read this post please flag it for FAQ, thanks.
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
FAQ: Titan Mauler: "Jotungrip allows the titan mauler to use two-handed melee weapons in one hand, but only if the weapon is appropriately sized for the character. The massive weapon class feature allows her to use oversized weapons with decreased penalty, but does not allow her to use two-handed weapons of that size in one hand."
If you have the exotic wp bastard sword you can wield a large bastard sword with two hands. Now you do 2d8 (at least I think it was 2d8) instead of 2d6 with a greatsword. You do so at -1 penalty to attack. So you have something similar to power attack that stacks with power attack.
If you are creative you can find a way to make it work.
Btw: If you are a dwarf you can do the same with a dwarven battleaxe without needing an ewp.
So my question is, can a oni spawning theifling titan mauler with the superiour clutch trait use a large greatsword at 3rd lvl?
|
So my question is, can a oni spawning theifling titan mauler with the superiour clutch trait use a large greatsword at 3rd lvl?No. There is no current way for any medium PC to wield a Large-sized Greatsword.
You will need to be enlarged.
A Large-sized Bastard Sword is available though.
The Superior Clutch trait just gives you more damage; it doesn't change how many hands it takes to wield a weapon. A Tiefling that randomly rolled the trait that lets them wield large weapons, on the other hand, could totally wield a large greatsword.
That odd the way massive weapons read it goes out of its way to say you cant use with Jotungrip to use a large two hander in one hand. That kinda implies that it will allow you to use ie: two handed.
Lol I did and thats way I asked because that says no Jotungrip doesnt allow you to use large weapons but does allow you to use med two handers in one hand. Then it goes on two say that massive weapons allow you to use oversized weapons ie large weapons at a decreased penalty, but you cant combined the two to say use a large greatsword one hand with all but says you can use a large two hander in two hands.
I think i get what your saying now, so whats the point of this class if it doesnt step up the size of weapons you can use?
|
|
I think i get what your saying now, so whats the point of this class if it doesnt step up the size of weapons you can use?
That is exactly why I posted this. The RAW and RAI are not the same. Please flag for FAQ and stop perpetuating the questions that have been clarified umpteen times previously.
Thanks
One more question how's dies a large bastard sword damage step at huge and gargantuan?
That is exactly why I posted this.
So what you're asking is if whoever changed the turnover for the Titan Mauler to what is currently printed really meant to do so?
|
|
That is exactly why I posted this.So what you're asking is if whoever changed the turnover for the Titan Mauler to what is currently printed really meant to do so?
No... Unless I am mistaken (and please correct me citing the proper sources if I am), the massive weapons ability was never altered. The author of the archetype neglected to give the class the ability to wield larger weapons. I'm asking someone to acknowledge the mistake in wording, that is all.
some of us are new to the message boards and have not read an umpteen number of posts about this topic Baridal
|
|
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
some of us are new to the message boards and have not read an umpteen number of posts about this topic Baridal
Okay, fair enough, so there are people out there who will choose to spend their time doing something other than research rules. With few exceptions, nobody will research something that doesn't directly affect them. I'll save you all the time of having to type the question into your little search box and just link a few of the other discussions on the topic before without garnering a response from a legitimate source.
Doing it wrong
What was the developer's opinion?
Jason Nelson's response to his RAI
No, you actually can't wield it
Not working as intended
Broken archetype
Wrong weapon size
No you actually can't do 12D8
So, merely 8 off the top options with literally hundreds of posts and FAQ responses all regarding the Titan Mauler's Massive Weapons class ability, NOT the Jotungrip ability. I can certainly insert more links for you if searching on your own is an impossibility.
All I'm looking for is some FAQ hits on my original clearly written(or so I thought) post in the hopes that someone will either fix this ability for the Titan Mauler archetype, or remove it. As it stands it's kind of stupid, nobody wants to play an archetype that actually makes them worse.
How does dealing 2d8 with -1 to hit make you worse than dealing 2d6 whithout penalty to hit?
Everyone uses powerattack. This is nearly as good and stacks.
And it gets better because at level 6 you still deal 2d8 but the penalty to hit is gone.
Just that it doesn't work with every weapon you can think of doesn't make this class ability bad. It is just different than most people expect it to be.
I could list you other class abilities that are worse when you get them.
It's not really a question of finding abilities that are worse - it's finding any real use for this one as written. To that end, I think (as others have pointed out) that the only real examples of any value may be some of the exotic one-handed weapons, most notably the bastard sword and dwarven waraxe. If you're proficient with them, then you can still wield a sized-up version in two hands, and that'll come out to a 2d8 weapon. It's still not a great class feature, but there's value to it. Similarly with the dwarven waraxe.
Outside of the exotic weapons, I can't find any example that's worth your time, as far as the numbers are concerned.
Can a Titan Mauler wield a Large Bastard Sword one-handed if he has Exotic Weapon Proficiency?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Umbranus:
For every -1 penalty you should be gaining at least a +3 to damage. Otherwise it just isnt worth it. 2d8 is a 2pt avg increase over 2d6.
Try running the numbers sometime. For comparison purposes I use the ACs for an equal CR creature (listed in table 1-1 of the Bestiary).
The DPR formula is: (%chance to hit * average damage) + (%chance to hit * average damage * %chance to crit * {multiplier-1})
- Gauss
I would sadly say no as the ability specifically says Weapons sized for the character.. IE medium sized creatures..
For someone with Exotic Weapon Proficiency, does the Bastard Sword not function as a one-handed weapon?
If this is indeed true, wouldn't he/she be able to wield a Large Bastard Sword in one hand with a small penalty, then?
|
I tried to make a titan mauler cital striking (the full line of feats) and I ended up using a greatsword of my size.
in 99% of the case a medium 2H weapon is >= a Large 1H weapon and >= a Huge light weapon (that you will both have to use 2-handedly)
the titan mauler ability is of no use except using a looted weapon.
JotunGrip should be useable with titan mauler (you might add "if wielding the weapon incurs no penalty to hit, this way you could wield a large weapon @6 and a huge @12)
It's not really a question of finding abilities that are worse - it's finding any real use for this one as written. To that end, I think (as others have pointed out) that the only real examples of any value may be some of the exotic one-handed weapons, most notably the bastard sword and dwarven waraxe. If you're proficient with them, then you can still wield a sized-up version in two hands, and that'll come out to a 2d8 weapon. It's still not a great class feature, but there's value to it. Similarly with the dwarven waraxe.
Outside of the exotic weapons, I can't find any example that's worth your time, as far as the numbers are concerned.
There's a better exotic weapon, though. It's the Aklys. 1d8 for a light weapon. A large Akyls is a one handed weapon. A huge aklys is a two handed weapon for a medium character. 1d8 increased 2 steps is, according to the damage table, 3d6. So, if you want to do half again the damage of a greatsword, you can use the Titan Mauler power on an Aklys.
Since over-sized weapon penalties stack every time you go up a category, this isn't necessarily a good trade for most characters. But for a high level titan mauler, the penalties are reduced to almost nothing or outright negated, since you'll have a four point penalty reduction by level 12 or so.
The fact you can throw them and then retrieve them with the cord that dangles off the back is just a neat additional feature.
If you don't want to spend a feat on an exotic weapon you pretty much have to need a race/class combo that gets you automatic proficiency with one, like Dwarven weapon familiarity. Or abuse the Scizore but when I DM I rule that even a giant one of those can't be used as a two-hander because it's too ridiculous, even if it fits RAW.
By the by, this is how you beat that "penalty to attack rolls outweighing the bonus to damage" problem with over-sized weapons. Never use one at low levels, only use it after you're high enough to negate or nearly negate the penalty. Then it's just free damage. Basically, the titan mauler powers let your barbarian hurt things a little better at higher levels as long as you pack a rogue instead of using the barbarian to find traps by setting them off. It's not a big boost, but it doesn't make your character worse. And you can use it all the time, instead of just when your DM is using traps.
EDIT: Also, just realized I somehow missed Illeist mention the Aklys earlier in the thread the first time I read it, so my apologies about that.
|
I would sadly say no as the ability specifically says Weapons sized for the character.. IE medium sized creatures..For someone with Exotic Weapon Proficiency, does the Bastard Sword not function as a one-handed weapon?
If this is indeed true, wouldn't he/she be able to wield a Large Bastard Sword in one hand with a small penalty, then?
At 2nd level, a titan mauler may choose to wield a two-handed melee weapon in one hand with a –2 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. The weapon must be appropriately sized for her, and it is treated as one-handed when determining the effect of Power Attack, Strength bonus to damage, and the like.
This ability replaces uncanny dodge.
FAQ/Errata
Does the Jotungrip class feature allow the Titan Mauler to use oversized weapons?
No. Jotungrip allows the titan mauler to use two-handed melee weapons in one hand, but only if the weapon is appropriately sized for the character. The massive weapon class feature allows her to use oversized weapons with decreased penalty, but does not allow her to use two-handed weapons of that size in one hand.
Pretty much that is the reason people are complaining.. as it just doesnt work...
I would sadly say no as the ability specifically says Weapons sized for the character.. IE medium sized creatures..For someone with Exotic Weapon Proficiency, does the Bastard Sword not function as a one-handed weapon?
If this is indeed true, wouldn't he/she be able to wield a Large Bastard Sword in one hand with a small penalty, then?
** spoiler omitted **
Pretty much that is the reason people are complaining.. as it just doesnt work...
But wasn't the OP talking about their other over-sized weapon ability and not Jotungrip?
Jotungrip isn't very good, it's true. The most effect you could get was if you can wield two greatswords for a fairly large accuracy penalty. I suppose 2d6 beats 1d8 or 1d10 for each hand's damage, but since the penalty doesn't reduce further you're always going to be taking a -2 on top of two weapon penalties (plus extra off hand penalties if you use two greatswords). Your best bet would be to use a one handed greatsword and a light martial or exotic weapon as your other hand, so your attack penalties stay manageable.
And that errata came about because some stupid people back in the 3.5e days thought that Powerful Build alone was overpowered.
It was on races that were not only already a bit overpowered (Goliath especially), but also had strong synergy with that racial in particular.
|
|
I would sadly say no as the ability specifically says Weapons sized for the character.. IE medium sized creatures..For someone with Exotic Weapon Proficiency, does the Bastard Sword not function as a one-handed weapon?
If this is indeed true, wouldn't he/she be able to wield a Large Bastard Sword in one hand with a small penalty, then?
** spoiler omitted **
Pretty much that is the reason people are complaining.. as it just doesnt work...
But wasn't the OP talking about their other over-sized weapon ability and not Jotungrip?
Jotungrip isn't very good, it's true. The most effect you could get was if you can wield two greatswords for a fairly large accuracy penalty. I suppose 2d6 beats 1d8 or 1d10 for each hand's damage, but since the penalty doesn't reduce further you're always going to be taking a -2 on top of two weapon penalties (plus extra off hand penalties if you use two greatswords). Your best bet would be to use a one handed greatsword and a light martial or exotic weapon as your other hand, so your attack penalties stay manageable.
.. Or a Heavy Bashing Shield with the Shield-Enhancing Featline..
Jotungrip isn't very good, it's true. The most effect you could get was if you can wield two greatswords for a fairly large accuracy penalty. I suppose 2d6 beats 1d8 or 1d10 for each hand's damage, but since the penalty doesn't reduce further you're always going to be taking a -2 on top of two weapon penalties (plus extra off hand penalties if you use two greatswords). Your best bet would be to use a one handed greatsword and a light martial or exotic weapon as your other hand, so your attack penalties stay manageable.
.. Or a Heavy Bashing Shield with the Shield-Enhancing Featline..
That'd be pretty interesting actually, since Shield Mastery negates penalties for two weapon fighting with a weapon and shield, while Shield Bash lets you keep your shield bonus to AC so there are no penalties of any sort for doing so.
Anyway, while currently Jotungrip and Massive Weapons don't synergize you just use Jotungrip for two-weapon Titan Mauler builds and Massive Weapon for two-handed weapon builds.
But, like I said, the original post is about the Massive Weapons ability, which is more useful, since at high levels there's no penalty to using it at all, unlike Jotungrip.
So in your link to jason nslsons response he states what he meant for the ability to do, way cant we get an offical errta then?
I tapped the FAQ both here and on Jason's original RAI post. Hopefully this gets fixed. Replacing trap sense isn't all that big of deal, but having any replacement power turn out to be only very situationally useful, seems counter productive.
While I am not arguing or disputing the "you can't wield a large greatsword" rule. Just thinking. Doesn't Jotungrip turn a 2 handed weapon to a 1 handed weapon, meaning that then that 1 handed weapon when sized up would turn into a two-handed weapon? Much like Katanas with the EWP?
Doesn't Jotungrip turn a 2 handed weapon to a 1 handed weapon, meaning that then that 1 handed weapon when sized up would turn into a two-handed weapon?
Jotungrip only works for appropriately sized weapons.
FAQ'd.
My GM actually allowed me to change my archetype (only at lvl 2) for my barb since discovering how lackluster it actually was.
I wonder if I should ask my player to change his mind about the Archetype.
Doesn't Jotungrip turn a 2 handed weapon to a 1 handed weapon, meaning that then that 1 handed weapon when sized up would turn into a two-handed weapon?Jotungrip only works for appropriately sized weapons.
A simple fix to this whole problem would be to say that Jotungrip lowers the type of weapon one step, i.e. 2-h becomes 1-h, 1-h becomes light, but nothing can be stepped lower than light. At that point the large 2-h greatsword would still be useable, because the Jotungrip ability would lower it to 1-h, and the size would raise it back up to 2-h. I believe this was always the intent of this particular archetype.
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
" The massive weapon class feature allows her to use oversized weapons with decreased penalty, but does not allow her to use two-handed weapons of that size in one hand."
I'm failing to see how this statement doesn't allow me to use a large sized GS with TWO hands...?
That statement doesn't. This one does:
The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder's size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. For example, a Small creature would wield a Medium one-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon. If a weapon's designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can't wield the weapon at all.
I must be slow. I'm still confused.
A weapon is altered by one size for each step away from the wield it is. So a large dagger wielded by a medium creature is a 1-handed weapon. If it took another step, it would become a two handed weapon. A large great sword wielded by a medium creature is impossible as it takes a step past 2-hands and thus becomes unusable, which I think is stupid for this archetype, as I personally thing that it saying that I become skilled in the use of them means I should be able to use them.