I think the point is that Zen Archers even more so than regular monks already have a very high AC potential (high WIS plus some Dex plus monk AC bonuses) and could already a a monk spend a ki for a +4 to AC for a round (against all attacks) vs snake style that requires a likely weakening of your attack (another attack at full flurry BAB for a zen archer is quite excellent dpr) plus a monk often has other skills to spend points on (though admittedly sense motive and a high WIS character do synergize well). My zen archer has a lot of uses for swift actions already w/o any style feats.
Vestrial wrote: I know your guide isn't a level 20 only exercise, but all of your advice, and the entire build itself, revolve around high-end play. (every single counter you've made has explicitely referred to high end play) This is the relevant point to me. First off, as originally stated, I don't build with the presumption of magic items available to me at will - I try to build the character naked. Naked, I don't see the Zen Archer having a ridiculously high AC, particularly at lower levels... which leads me to my second point, that the vast majority of play will take place between 2nd and 12th level or so. Under those circumstances, with the understanding that I only have to worry about using Snake when I'm actually attacked, it seems to me to be the ideal choice.
Rycaut wrote: I think the point is that Zen Archers even more so than regular monks already have a very high AC potential (high WIS plus some Dex plus monk AC bonuses) and could already a a monk spend a ki for a +4 to AC for a round (against all attacks) vs snake style that requires a likely weakening of your attack (another attack at full flurry BAB for a zen archer is quite excellent dpr) plus a monk often has other skills to spend points on (though admittedly sense motive and a high WIS character do synergize well). My zen archer has a lot of uses for swift actions already w/o any style feats. Very high AC potential? I guess. Even with rolled stats, (19 wis, 17 dex at level 5), my AC is 19. Goes up to 23 with mage armor. I guess that is pretty damn good. But my sense motive is also 19. On an average roll that's 29. I go from having a 35-40% chance of getting hit for half my hp in one shot, to 5%.
So how many is too many options? You say you have 'a lot' of uses for swift actions. I see one: Extra attack. The rest are more or less non-options, or are highly situational. (and having another option doesn't diminish the utility or availability of those others. You can always only do one per turn).
And how many combats do you have per day, that you freely blow your ki every single round, and couldn't possibly skip a turn to avoid taking a greataxe to the face?
Vestrial, it's great that you enjoy playing your character, and that you find him (her?) a deep and immersive experience. However, a number on your character sheet does not make your character deep. Sense Motive is not a shallower skill than Profession (Carpenter); nor is Climb a shallower skill than Sense Motive. Your character is as deep as your roleplaying capabilities and investment make him. You don't know that my zen archers are shallow, any more than I know yours are Tolstoyan creations.
A 12th level zen qinggong archer, built with one of the three feat plans outlined in the guide, and with two easy-to-live-with vows, has 19 ki points and 9 ki spends. 6 of these spends require swift actions. They're all useful, and the majority are so good that the zen archer is already faced with big dilemmas in spending his single swift per round. Extra attack vs unarmed damage is the hardest choice, but ignoring total cover and ignoring total concealment are also superb, and when you need them they're priceless - though qualified, because they block you from doing full ki damage/attack routines.
At 12th, you also have barkskin (+5, 2 hours, standard) and +4 dodge (swift, 1 full round). With barkskin (a paltry expenditure of 3 ki for 6 hours) you already have AC33, touch 28. This is more than competent (a competent total AC being 20+level). You'll rarely need to expend a swift ki for extra AC, but if you do, you can raise your AC to 37 (touch 32) for an entire round for 1 ki. In addition, the +4 dodge bonus applies to CMD, which matters for archers (grab and sunder both being nasty for you). At 12th the guide's main example character has a CMD of 44: the +4 ki point raises this to an excellent 48. With 19 ki, you can be spending 4 in each of four combats per day, with three to spare for 6 hours of barkskin. This is more than enough for a tough adventuring day.
Swift/immediate actions are one of the most severely rationed action groups in the game. The zen archer already has hard choices to make with his ration of one per round. Snake Style is an okay option at first glance, but it becomes a fairly poor choice for a zen archer because it runs into the carcrash of swift options the class already has. As if that weren't enough, it is unnecessarily shoring up two of the zen archer's best defences - total AC and touch AC. Meanwhile, it does nothing for CMD (which matters, as pointed out above), and it only lasts for one attack. +4 dodge - should you ever need it - lasts an entire round, and applies to three defensive scores.
None of this detracts from the fact that Snake Style isn't a terrible choice - and if you find it makes your character deeper, there is that for it (though see above). I think you're on the right track, insofar as investing defensive feats in the zen archer is a good idea, because the class can stand up to melee (and thus flurry consistently) with a sufficient and affordable investment. But the zen archer isn't the ideal platform for snakiness, because that style replaces scores that aren't remotely in need of replacement, and because it competes for severely limited actions for which the archer already has multiple splendid options.
I didn't say anything about 'shallowness' or 'deepness,' whatever that means. It's about breadth of abilities. You invest every single ability into combat, for a character that is extremely potent in combat without spending a single feat. I prefer a more rounded approach. Not better, just different. I would get very bored playing your build.
You also vastly overstate the value of the different uses of ki, and the difficulty in deliberating over which to use. It's usually a non-decision-- You use the one that's best for the situation. Your claim that extra attack vs unarmed damage is the 'hardest choice' is outright false. It's a simple question of math-- It requires no real-time debate during combat. And as for all the other options, do you seriously often find yourself needing to go defensive while you fire at someone at extreme range who's under cover?
Snake vs +4 deflection is no different than the other choices. It is usually clear which is better to use-- If you're being attacked by multiple enemies with moderate bonuses, +4 is better. If you're going to be attacked with a maneuver, +4 is better. If you're being attacked once or twice by a baddie with a high bonus and high damage, or by a touch spell, snake is better.
Stop trying to make this a 'ki vs snake' argument, becuase it's not. They both have their uses, and neither detracts from the other. Having both in your bag of tricks only makes the character more powerful. Even by your own rationing of ki, you only have 4 to spend per combat. That leaves several rounds a day unaccounted for. Not to mention, 12th level is months of play for most people. From 3-10 you have even less, so there are more rounds in which to use snake debate-free.
The real question is snake vs toughness, and I'm sorry, snake wins, hands down. You keep saying snake is a 'poor choice.' It's not in the least. For the first half of the monks career, the monk with snake is vastly more survivable than the one without. That snake's utility drops to uselessness late game is a dubious and ultimately irrelevant point of contention.
Oh yeah, and at level 5, Snake has already saved my party from tpk once, kept me from going into the red at least 3 times, and let me solo an assassin who otherwise would have likely killed me. So yeah, I'll let you know when I start regretting taking it... :p
Vestrial wrote: You also vastly overstate the value of the different uses of ki, and the difficulty in deliberating over which to use. It's usually a non-decision-- You use the one that's best for the situation. Your claim that extra attack vs unarmed damage is the 'hardest choice' is outright false. It's a simple question of math-- It requires no real-time debate during combat. I did the DPR calculations on this accounting for the monks robes and size changes (assuming the monk had large arrows he dropped before enlarging). I never found a level where it was more advantageous to take the dice over the extra attack during a full attack action. Certain high DR situations might change this, but I doubt it since clustered shot is so high on everyones list.
Interesting ideas here guys, thanks.
Glad it's useful, DrDeth.
Lastoth, it sounds like your DPR calc doesn't factor in Boots of Speed, which are a key item for a zen archer (and a bargain at the price), or the zen archer's high chances of criticals (high because triple-roll Perfect Strike and flurry give so many attack rolls, and Improved Critical can be taken at 10th as a monk bonus feat). Because the boots are haste-based, their extra attack doesn't stack with the archer's ki-spend extra attack (though it will with the basic flurry, and very nicely too). From 15th level, with boots and the robe, a zen archer is doing 2d10 per arrow, and is better off with unarmed damage whenever he uses his boots.
Vestrial...chill, dude. You've found a schtick that works well for you at 5th level: that's great; have fun. You asked the boards why Snake Style wasn't a good choice for a zen archer, and I've told you: feel free to disagree, but there's no value in getting snippy about it (which is how you're coming across). Snake Style won't work so well as your character progresses, because your AC will become excellent in itself and doesn't need propping up with a feat-bought alternative. Your range of swift action ki abilities will become marvellous, but will present you with multiple dilemmas in themselves. Your points about 'breadth of character' and 'boringness' don't have anything to do with this twofold issue. A character has as much breadth and interest as you allow with your roleplaying abilities; it has nothing to do with numbers on the page.
porpentine wrote: Vestrial...chill, dude. You've found a schtick that works well for you at 5th level: that's great; have fun. You asked the boards why Snake Style wasn't a good choice for a zen archer, and I've told you: feel free to disagree, but there's no value in getting snippy about it (which is how you're coming across). Snake Style won't work so well as your character progresses, because your AC will become excellent in itself and doesn't need propping up with a feat-bought alternative. Your range of swift action ki abilities will become marvellous, but will present you with multiple dilemmas in themselves. Your points about 'breadth of character' and 'boringness' don't have anything to do with this twofold issue. A character has as much breadth and interest as you allow with your roleplaying abilities; it has nothing to do with numbers on the page. I actually didn't ask the boards why snake wasn't a good choice. I asked you why you chose toughness over snake, and then you explained that snake was 'a poor choice,' and then failed to offer a convincing argument that didn't involve high level play. Snake is categorically better than toughness for at least the first half of the zam's career (in terms of levels. It's probably more like 90% in terms of real life time). It is just flat out better. Yet you stubbornly cling to this absurd notion that having multiple options creates a 'dilemma.'
Breadth is absolutely related to the 'numbers' on the page. The numbers on a page are an abstraction of the abilities of the character as a whole. Your numbers are tightly focused on one single aspect of play, ergo the character lacks breadth of ability. You can absolutely ignore those numbers and RP whatever you want, of course. Many players roleplay their 7 charisma character as a charming, likable fellow. Or that 7 int as a rather cunning tactician on the battlefield. You can roleplay that your character never misses a thing, and that it's virtually impossible to pull the wool over his eyes. For mine it's actually true. I get the benefit of RP, and the statistics to use if/when the time comes to roll dice. You can say your zam is the 'rogue' of the party, but mine can actually disable traps and pick locks.
You are only concerned about the statistics in so far as they affect combat, and that's fine. But the numbers absolutely have out of combat bearing as well, and some of us care about those also.
And most of us don't play to 20. So if you want to build your character with high level play as the focus, great. But to tell others they make 'poor choices' because said choices don't fit into your conception of the 'optimal' level 20 build is more than a little condescending.
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