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However, Hamas is attacking Israel on it's home ground. Many of the places Hamas wishes to "liberate" have been captured so early on by the newly founded Israel that for all intents and purposes they are now part of it - Israelis, not Palestinians, where the ones constructing the cities and creating the agriculture and the civilian Infrastructure. Palestinians living in Gaza today have never actualy been to the cities they claim are theirs by right.
I don't want to discuss who has the moral highgroung about being the "legitimate" owner of these lands because frankly both sides of the argument seem silly to me. However you look at it, Hamas is not trying to shake an empire of a piece of god forsaken, far away land. They are trying to take the houses where people grew up - citizens in Israel have actual, real connections to these places.
And that's why the attacks Hamas launches are all but pointless. They will never be enough (on their own) to make Israel concede those lands. If there is to be any chance at all for the Palestinians to reclaim even part of their lands, it'll have to be through diplomacy. It's a way that seems impossible for now and it requires much to change before it can work, but it's the only way.
My point? The attacks initiated by Hamas are every bit as pointless as those initiated by Israel. They are inaffective at achieving thier supposed target and only succed in making things worse by forcing Israel to retaliate, furthering the war and costing more lives.
So, if Hamas renounced violence and attempted serious diplomacy, what do they have to offer Israel? What terms are they negotiating? What have they got to induce Israel to give them anything?
And of course, how long will they have to remain completely peaceful under the blockade and how many other concessions will they have to make before Israel even is willing to begin talking to them?
In past periods of ceasefire or even relative peace, what has Israel actually given up? Has peace...
Well, I think the problem here is rooted in the fact that there are two goals that the Palestinians have:
1) stop Israeli opression
2) reclaim not only the land that illegal Jewish settlers have taken over time but also large areas that are nowdays as much a part of Israel as Tel Aviv, since in 1948 or even maybe as late as 1967 these lands did not belong to Israel
these two goals are not the same, and to me it seems that goal 1 should have a much higher priority, but that's not the case. If all Palestinians aspired to was goal 1, then I believe that yes, eventualy, after a prolonged period of peace (and I'm not talking decades, I'm talking years) they'll gradualy start getting their freedoms back and live better lives. Even if Israel would be hesitant to give such things, international pressure can play a huge part in this.
However, Israel has not intention whatsoever of conceding back grounds that are now part of it. I don't know if that's justified or not (regardless, I don't think that's SMART [which is very diffrent from justified] - I would gladely have traded some real estate to end this stuipd conflict, but maybe that's just me), but that's how it is. Our very homeland is under attack and something as meagre as the rockets Hamas fires is not remotley close to forcing a nation to concede it's own grounds.
That's why the approach taken by Hamas - that they refuse to consider any sort of agreement that dosen't include goal 2 - means they have to threaten Israel in the first place.
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What point did I miss? I'm not talking hypotheticals, unlike some. If Hamas cared about its people it would have made peace a long, long, long time ago.
But Hamas doesn't care about children being blasted to pieces by missiles - it cares about maintaining control over Gaza and extending control over the West Bank. Shooting missiles at Israel only invites destruction, death, and horror. These are the things that Hamas thrives on, not the hard work of getting people drinking water and electricity. When they fail to provide for the people of Gaza, they start to see their control slipping away - and that's when Hamas starts another war.
Fatah has gotten PEACE. I know that's hard for people to imagine as a benefit, but the Israelis are not firing artillery into Nablus, are not driving tanks through Jenin, etc. What does that get those people? Oh... peace. That's an enormous benefit. I imagine most people in Gaza would really appreciate that right around now.
The Palestinian Authority is receiving millions and millions to build up its capacity to govern. It is actually kind of working. Hamas is receiving air strikes.
Peace is the end game. Why not start with it too?
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BigNorseWolf -
The U.S was founded on grounds claimed by Europian countries. The revolution against Britain that led to it's indapendance is a little similar to how the Zionist of the mid 20th century fought against the British (but on a larger scale, I think). Those two revolutions had something very important in common that the Hamas agression lacks - they were revolutions against some of the most remote outpost of a great imperialistic nation.
I don't see what the proximity of the imperialistic nation has to do with anything. Oppression is oppression, whether its from a neighbor or from halfway across the world.
The interest Britain had of holding grounds on America or in what was called Palestine back at that time was one of power and finance, or of pride or something (never did figure out the emotional arguments for imperialism, it just seems silly).
Money my dear boy. The British elite owned stock in the trading companies and the British factories that were benefiting from Britains Planned economy.
However, Hamas is attacking Israel on it's home ground.
If you are fighting an oppressor there's nothing that says you can't cross the border to hit them back.
I don't want to discuss who has the moral highgroung about being the "legitimate" owner of these lands because frankly both sides of the argument seem silly to me.
This isn't just about who had what land when. This isn't just about some cycle of violence going back to great grandpas day. This is about what Israel does on a daily basis.
Israel keeps expanding the settlements: its an ongoing land grab.
Israel has control of an area and refuses to allow those people in it to vote.
Israel maintains a blockade around the palastinian areas (either by itself or via threatening its neighbors)
Israel will not issue passports, or allow another country to issue passports for them.
Israel allocates the water to the settlers in the west bank
This is not some distant past where you can squabble over who's at fault. Its now... every... single.. day.
And that's why the attacks Hamas launches are all but pointless. They will never be enough (on their own) to make Israel concede those lands. If there is to be any chance at all for the Palestinians to reclaim even part of their lands, it'll have to be through diplomacy.
Even you, a self described moderate, are perfectly fine with 10 of them dying to save 1 of you. You say that you don't want to get into the who did what first issue but you are eminently willing to justify Israels actions as a reaction to something the Palestinians while simultaneously ignoring the things Israel his done that the Palestinians are reacting to. You want to put Israels actions in context and explain it as something that it has to do without giving the same benefit of the doubt to the Palestinians.
What are the Palestinians supposed to negotiate with? What is their bargaining chip? Are they supposed to get on their knees and say "pretty please stop abusing us?" If the basic human decency required to have that request granted actually worked they wouldn't need to ask.
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Everything is dependent on Israel's good will. They have all the guns and all the power. The Gazans, huddling in darkness, eating food off the back of aid trucks, terrified of when militants are going to start seizing their teenage sons don't have power.
The Palestinians have no bargaining chip. They are too poor, too fragmented, too weak. Do you think that Israel is scared of the amount of violence that the Palestinians can do to them? Not really - not since they built the security walls.
Peaceful resistance is better than violent resistance. Yes, the Palestinian Authority is losing bits of territory to settlers - but they are building the capacity to become a trustworthy negotiating partner in the future. They are building infrastructure. They are doing the things necessary to make a future for their people.
Hamas is not. Hamas cannot - because it exists only to make war. It is a war they cannot win, but they cannot exist without it and so they carry on, heedless of the consequences.
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BigNorseWolf, I fear I didn't get my intention through what I wrote.
The sole intention of the post you repleid to was to justify the last claim in it - that Hamas is incapable of winning the violent war it's fighting, because unlike what happened with the U.S and Israel fighting Britian, Hamas is not trying to convince a great empire who's intrest in it's territory is a financial one, it's trying to intimidate large sections of the populace of Israel out of their homes. That's very diffrent.
Hamas attacks, with no chance of ever winning (because, again, their capabilities are not nearly enough to make Israel even consider to give them large swaths of land as they want). Those attacks lead to Israeli retaliation which results in dead Palestinians.
Agian, my sole point is, people are blaiming Israel for pointless use of force since it's obvious that the force Israel is willing to deploy is not enough to wipe out armed resistence in Gaza. I'm saying the same goes the other way around - Hamas should also be blamed for pointless use of force since it's obviously not effective (I'd say it's even less effective since, as you pointed out, their land is still stolen bit by bit by Jews).
From a pragmatic point of view, the attacks Hamas initiates are every bit as pointless as those the IDF initiates.
Now you also say that the threat Hamas can muster against Israel, meager as it is, is the only bargaining chip the people of Gaza have. I would like to refer you to my replay to thejeff (that's my previous post in this thread) where I explain why, in my opinion, Palestinians don't need a bargaining chip at all. The short version is that if Palestinians were willing to seperate their claims for their ancestors land from their claims to basic human rights, they'd have a MUCH easier time getting those human rights, as long as they prove they can be trusted by not initiating any sort of agression. Please, read my previous post.
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Our very homeland is under attack and something as meagre as the rockets Hamas fires is not remotley close to forcing a nation to concede it's own grounds.And the Palestinians homeland is not merely under attack, but being taken piece by piece.
When you say "illegal" settlements, do you mean only the ones Israel considers illegal or all the settlements in the occupied territories which are considered illegal by the international community.
See my response to BigNorsWtolf, it's relevent to your posts as well.
When I say illegal settlments I mean some middle point between the two conceptions of the issue. Some settlments I consider legitimate to Israel are not considerd so by the U.N - that is because those place were taken by Israel in wars back in 1967 or in 1948, so by technical international law they don't belong to Israel. as it stands, though, the settlments in these areas were built by Israeli citizens and except the very old, no one in Gaza ever lived in them. To me that is enough to consider these grounds as belonging to Israel, and I find it odd that Palestinians wish to "return" to those lands. Just like I find it odd in the first place that Zionists wanted to "return" to Israel. I just don't get it.
Anyway, back on track. As I said some settlments the U.N considers illegal are just part of Israel, that's how the day-by-day fact around here. However, some settlments that Israel considers legal are most certainly not, and are obviously by religeous Jewish imperialism (the claim is that, since in the old testiment it's written that certain areas belong to the Jewish people, it is our holy right, or even duty, to claim them again. That's twisted and disgusting if you ask me).
You are forgetting the most important platform of hamas:
We're not the other guy.
Sometimes that's enough to win an election.
Peaceful resistance only worked on the British because the British were in it for the cash (and in all honesty it was a mixed system-there was a lot of stick to go with ghandi's carrot). Its like THX 1138: Beating the system that wants you dead is completely impossible. Becoming more trouble than you're worth on the other hand may be possible...if the other persons investment in the conflict is completely rational.
The Israeli's do not need the Palestinians for anything. They can sit at home and do nothing, refuse to work, boycott etc and israel (as a whole) won't care.
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You are forgetting the most important platform of hamas:
We're not the other guy.
Sometimes that's enough to win an election.
Hamas isn't campaigning that way though, are they? This isn't Mitt Romney v. Obama with concession speeches and whatnot. These are parties who shoot each other with guns, in the streets. Remember how exactly Hamas is in charge of Gaza? They staged a coup and destroyed the PA's power there with military force.
Both sides are playing for keeps.
Hamas wants the Islamic World to recognize it was the true standard bearer of the resistance. They also want to keep the people of Gaza starving and terrified. These are two parties with diametrically opposed visions of the future and different visions about how to get there - they aren't arguing over a 1-cent titanium tax.
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BigNorseWolf, I fear I didn't get my intention through what I wrote.
I got the intention. I just don't think you're right.
all. The short version is that if Palestinians were willing to seperate their claims for their ancestors land from their claims to basic human rights, they'd have a MUCH easier time getting those human rights,
This is a canard.
I'm willing to give that you believe it, but there is no way that this is a genuine sticking point in negotiations. Its just an excuse to continue the land grab. If the excuse went away there would be another right behind it.
The Palestinians claims for the 48 borders matter about as much as a fart in the wind. Israel knows this. Israel is not giving up any land except by its own choice. No sane person on either side is going to dispute this, even if they don't want to acknowledge it.
Agian, my sole point is, people are blaiming Israel for pointless use of force since it's obvious that the force Israel is willing to deploy is not enough to wipe out armed resistence in Gaza. I'm saying the same goes the other way around - Hamas should also be blamed for pointless use of force since it's obviously not effective (I'd say it's even less effective since, as you pointed out, their land is still stolen bit by bit by Jews).
If its their only bargaining chip then its not completely ineffective. (see below)
Now you also say that the threat Hamas can muster against Israel, meager as it is, is the only bargaining chip the people of Gaza have. I would like to refer you to my replay to thejeff (that's my previous post in this thread) where I explain why, in my opinion, Palestinians don't need a bargaining chip at all.
HorseFeathers.
There is NO reason to believe this. NONE. I am sitting a thousand miles away in the safety of new york. I haven't had my land stolen, i haven't had to go through an isreali check point, i haven't had to dig through the rubble of what was once my home, and no one I know has been arrested or shot for demonstrating against Israel.
And I don't believe you.
You want... well for that to work you actually NEED the Palestinians, who HAVE gone through all of that, to believe you for.. some indeterminate length of time. You want the Palestinians to sit on their hands and behave while Israel says "not this year, maybe next year, no maybe next year" time after time while the settlements keep going up...for HOW long? You don't just need some Palestinians to buy it, you need to sell them ALL on it or they're going to turn to some Iranian guy standing on the corner flashing his trench coat "hey man, wana buy a rocket?".
What has Israel ever done to garner that kind of blind faith? As I said before: if Israel was good enough to give the Palestinians basic rights because its the right thing to do they would have done it already.
The short version is that if Palestinians were willing to seperate their claims for their ancestors land from their claims to basic human rights, they'd have a MUCH easier time getting those human rights, as long as they prove they can be trusted by not initiating any sort of agression. Please, read my previous post.
You should not have to claim basic human rights. They should go without saying.
Hamas isn't campaigning that way though, are they? This isn't Mitt Romney v. Obama with concession speeches and whatnot. These are parties who shoot each other with guns, in the streets. Remember how exactly Hamas is in charge of Gaza?
Yes, by winning an election. If the other government wouldn't give up power then they have earned a right to throw them out, violently if need be.
Yes. And they shot at each other in the streets. They dispute elections - there are no concession speeches - there are armed men blasting away with AKs.
Yes but one of them is an armed man enforcing democracy and the other is an armed man opposing it. That makes a difference.
Equating the two, or just saying that all violence is bad, simply leaves you vulnerable to the most stubborn or violent person doing what they want with no way of stopping them.
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BigNorseWolf, Gaza and Israel are not alone in this world. If there would be no agression from Gaza, any diplomatic channels they open can start working real pressure on Israel to stop a (now needless) opression.
It is also not true that "You should not have to claim basic human rights. They should go without saying.", not in the reality around here. The official (and somewhat true) justification for opressing Palestinians is for the safety of Israelis. If Palestinians would pose no threat, that justification would vanish.
Someone is a known murderer? you lock him in prison, taking many of his basic human rights (like the right for freedom of movment etc.). Israel is willing to "lock in prison" everyone in Gaza just to make sure that the real murderers among them are looked up. Not saying that it's a good thing, just saying that this is what's happening. Hamas firing rockets is never going to change that. Hamas being peaceful and working diplomatic international pressure just might.
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BigNorseWolf, Gaza and Israel are not alone in this world. If there would be no agression from Gaza, any diplomatic channels they open can start working real pressure on Israel to stop a (now needless) opression.
It is also not true that "You should not have to claim basic human rights. They should go without saying.", not in the reality around here. The official (and somewhat true) justification for opressing Palestinians is for the safety of Israelis. If Palestinians would pose no threat, that justification would vanish.
Someone is a known murderer? you lock him in prison, taking many of his basic human rights (like the right for freedom of movment etc.). Israel is willing to "lock in prison" everyone in Gaza just to make sure that the real murderers among them are looked up. Not saying that it's a good thing, just saying that this is what's happening. Hamas firing rockets is never going to change that. Hamas being peaceful and working diplomatic international pressure just might.
So, by extension, are you then advocating that Israel be blockaded by the rest of the world, it's citizens denied freedom of movement due to Palestinian deaths at the hands of Israeli citizens who were not active military? And by further extension, should then not EVERY country be placed under the same conditions due to the fact that there is no single country in the world where murder does not occur?
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BigNorseWolf, Gaza and Israel are not alone in this world. If there would be no aggression from Gaza, any diplomatic channels they open can start working real pressure on Israel to stop a (now needless) opression.
Israel has demonstrated that it doesn't give two figs for the rights of the palastinians. Why would it suddenly start caring what the international community thinks?
It is also not true that "You should not have to claim basic human rights. They should go without saying.", not in the reality around here.
And you're doing a wonderful job of demonstrating why. You help to create that reality. You continually advance the position of isreals moral superiority. Case in point...
Someone is a known murderer? you lock him in prison, taking many of his basic human rights (like the right for freedom of movment etc.). Israel is willing to "lock in prison" everyone in Gaza just to make sure that the real murderers among them are looked up.
You have demonstrated no difference,morally, between Israel and the Palestinians required to treat the other person as the murderer. You continually spin things so that its all the palastinians fault, without regard for the fact that you have, at best, moral parity between the two.
Israel has the right to exist and has the right to defend that right violently, but the Palestinians do not.
Palestinians attacking Israel are criminals, but Isreali's attacking Palestinians and wracking up a 20 to 1 body count are soldiers.
Israel cannot be held responsible for the actions of all of its settlers, but all Palestinians can be held responsible for a few yahoos shooting rockets.
Using illegal violence in service to Israel makes you a freedom fighter. Using illegal violence for the palastinians makes you a terrorist.
Committing acts of terror makes you not a real freedom fighter when you're on the Israeli side, but the Palestinian side doesn't get that exception.
Its one hell of a trick crying -help help i'm being oppressed i need to defend myself- while y'all are killing them 20 to 1 AND are currently in the process of stealing their land. If two people are punching each other and the 300 pound galoot has the 100 pound weaklings wallet in his hand, "I'll stop punching him after he stops punching me for a while, really" becomes a bit of a far fretched claim.
Do you not even see the pedestal that you have Israel on?
Not saying that it's a good thing, just saying that this is what's happening. Hamas firing rockets is never going to change that. Hamas being peaceful and working diplomatic international pressure just might.
What behavior or action in Israel's past are you basing that on? If the horror of what Israel has done to the Palestinians already wasn't sufficient motivation to give them rights then I highly doubt that international pressure will.
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It's very easy to hurl accusations at Israel when we sit well and far removed from the situation. I don't think I would ever have the gonads to spit a lecture at someone who has seen first hand a region I have seen only from the safety of my living room. Lord Snow has offered us a bit of insight, from the Israeli perspective, I think very few of us would be qualified to tell him that we know better.
It's also, ya know, the opinion of an Israeli.
Now if there are any Palestinian Paizonians, bring them on!
Since, presumably we'd be able to take him/her at their word as well...
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It's also, ya know, the opinion of an Israeli.
Now if there are any Palestinian Paizonians, bring them on!Since, presumably we'd be able to take him/her at their word as well...
Note I did say from an Israeli perspective. I honestly would love to hear from a Palestinian as well. Like in most things I think the crux of the matter would lie in both sides. From the handful of Palestinians and Israelis I have met in RL, I have found both groups to be good honest folk. Now the governments of those folks... well, I have no experience with those. *shrugs*
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It's very easy to hurl accusations at Israel when we sit well and far removed from the situation. I don't think I would ever have the gonads to spit a lecture at someone who has seen first hand a region I have seen only from the safety of my living room. Lord Snow has offered us a bit of insight, from the Israeli perspective, I think very few of us would be qualified to tell him that we know better.
Insight yes, but what I'm not seeing is anything more than teamism. The things "my team" does are ok only because they're my team. If lord snow were on a different team he could have almost the same arguments aimed in the opposite direction and they would work just as well. Thats a problem with his position I cannot ignore for an argument from authority.
Israeli/Palestinian cooperation musical interlude.
meatrace - close... but P-Thugg is Lebanese, and Macklovitch is Canadian :P
I prefer this one :P
Well they're both Canadian. That doesn't blunt the joke, which they themselves made...
Except their joke was about Arab / Jewish partnership... not Israeli / Palestinian.
Yes - nice joke, but lets be accurate ;)
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Except their joke was about Arab / Jewish partnership... not Israeli / Palestinian.
Yes - nice joke, but lets be accurate ;)
Really? Is that what this thread has devolved into? Someone correcting me on a joke?!
Especially in early interviews, you guys talked about how you musically came from very different backgrounds.
meatrace - the point is that you got both of their nationalities wrong.
Not every Arab is Palestinian and not every Jew is Israeli - and I wouldn't have needed to correct you if you were actually right...
meatrace - the point is that you got both of their nationalities wrong.
Not every Arab is Palestinian and not every Jew is Israeli - and I wouldn't have needed to correct you if you were actually right...
No, the point is that it's a joke, and I was quoting someone else. Go correct them. I mean, in the interview, Chromeo didn't bother to correct them.
I said they have been referred to as the only successful Israeli Palestinian partnership. I then show you where the quote was taken from. They were, indeed, referred to as such. So...what part of my statement was wrong?
Also, go fly a kite.
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meatrace - the point is that you got both of their nationalities wrong.
Not every Arab is Palestinian and not every Jew is Israeli - and I wouldn't have needed to correct you if you were actually right...
No, the point is that it's a joke, and I was quoting someone else. Go correct them. I mean, in the interview, Chromeo didn't bother to correct them.
I said they have been referred to as the only successful Israeli Palestinian partnership. I then show you where the quote was taken from. They were, indeed, referred to as such. So...what part of my statement was wrong?
Also, go fly a kite.
I thought it was funny if that helps. :P
Well they're both Canadian. That doesn't blunt the joke, which they themselves made...
Technically there if I was being a pedant. But if I mistook your intent with that statement then I'm sorry (note that is sincere).
I would take you up on the instruction to fly a kite but unfortunately I am unable as:
a) it's dark out.
b) there's no wind
c) I don't own a kite
Also, Chromeo are indeed awesome, and it is both ironic and sad that they'd be unable to do a gig in either Lebanon or Israel:
V: Do you ever wish you could go back to Lebanon and do a show?
P: (laughs) Yeah. Actually, my cousins called me yesterday from Lebanon. They saw an article about us in The New York Times, and were like, “When are you coming to do a show here?”
Both: (laugh)
V: You could bring some peace and love over there!
P: Yeah. I mean, I don’t think Dave can even get into Lebanon, because he’s Jewish. It kind of sucks. I can’t go to Israel, and he can’t go to Lebanon. (laughs) We’ll have to find some middle ground somewhere.
Interview
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don't think I would ever have the gonads to spit a lecture at someone who has seen first hand a region I have seen only from the safety of my living room.
I think the word you are looking for is "chutzpah."
Amusingly wikipedia states:
The cognate of chutzpah in Classical Arabic, ḥaṣāfah (حصافة), does not mean "impudence" or "cheekiness" or anything similar, but rather "sound judgment."
Ooh!
[Adds to useless fact file]
Ooh!
[Adds to useless fact file]
If it wasn't for the internet I would only know useful stuff.
You have a file for them? I usually just toss them in the corner in a big pile... occasionally it's nice to swim around in them Scrooge McDuck style.
[Now that other people are up and about at Chez Goblin, starts rockin' to the Chromeo tunez]