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I think what makes me feel the most disgust is that the PR machines of the vested interests have dehumanised the Palestinians to the point where 10 dead Palestinians for every Israeli killed is unremarkable. Any death is a tragedy and 10 times the death is 10 times the tragedy.
Don't give me oh they hide amongst they civilians - they are the civilians just as the Jews of the Warsaw ghetto bravely fought to the bitter end the Palestinians of Gaza are doing the same.
Israel has used up its currency of WWII guilt and sympathy. The world is tired of the country thinking it can do as it pleases because the US is its ally.
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I think what makes me feel the most disgust is that the PR machines of the vested interests have dehumanised the Palestinians to the point where 10 dead Palestinians for every Israeli killed is unremarkable. Any death is a tragedy and 10 times the death is 10 times the tragedy.
Well, we have the same problem with Iraqi and Afghanistan civilians, as well as the civilians that get caught in our drone strikes.
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I don't understand why we are still there. Afghanistan is a death trap, the great game is still being played with that country, it's just that new players have joined the table.
The Afghans want to be incontroll of their own destiny (except that each tribal group wants to be the one in charge).
The Pakistanis do not want a strong united Afghanistan on its border. Rather than seeing Afghanistan as an ally and trade partner they see it as a rival and potential enemy. So Pakistani intelligence works very hard to keep the country destablised.
The Russians are laughing their collective arses off, they are making bucket loads of cash selling arms to interested parties and at the same time enjoying the fact that the US is mired in Afghanistan like it was in the 80's
The Chinese are happy the US is stuck there as well, it gives them wiggle room to supplant the US on the world stage. I wouldn't be surprised if they weren't selling weapons there either.
The Iranians would love to send the US a thank you letter for saving them money for their PR campaign to try to prove that the US is the Great Satan.
Israel is happy because it makes them strategically important to the US and turns Muslims into the bad guys for the average US citizen.
The UK are in it for nostalgia, they like to occasionally like to relive the days when they were something more than a second rate player.
The French are happy because it annoys the US and the UK to be stuck anything that annoys the English and the Americans is a good thing.
I don't understand why we are still there.
Pretty much this.
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UN tells Israel to let in nuclear inspectors
slightly off-topic
Not at all! And super awesome.
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Exactly, thejeff. All G.A. votes are is a sort of straw poll of world opinion. I dont think this is a bad thing. It still puts alot of political pressure upon Israel. And I did rather like that the even the US voted for Israel to sign the non-proliferation treaty.
Also, Happy Hannukah!
IDF precision targeting kills children
We've already done the al-Dalous, but second half of the article has more kids killed by the IDF.
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I think what makes me feel the most disgust is that the PR machines of the vested interests have dehumanised the Palestinians to the point where 10 dead Palestinians for every Israeli killed is unremarkable. Any death is a tragedy and 10 times the death is 10 times the tragedy.
Don't give me oh they hide amongst they civilians - they are the civilians just as the Jews of the Warsaw ghetto bravely fought to the bitter end the Palestinians of Gaza are doing the same.
Israel has used up its currency of WWII guilt and sympathy. The world is tired of the country thinking it can do as it pleases because the US is its ally.
As I have already stated much earlier this thread, the death qouta is not any indication to anything, really. For some reason people seem to think that the fact that Israelis are able to defend themselves effectively from the absurdly unefficient attack method Hamas is using (missile fire aimed at civilian targets) and therefore suffers a very small amount of looses dosen't mean it's being attacked any less.
Hack, according to your own formula, every death is a tragedy. If Hamas would have been able to kill more, the tragedy only increases.
BigNorseWolf - you blamed me, about 5 forum pages ago, in "teamism", that is justifying everything Israel does and laying all the blame on the Palestinians. I am really surprised at that accusation, because to me it seems that in order to think something like that you'll have to ignore about half the things I said.
My points, in snippets, were:
1) Hamas is a terrorist organaization. It has known ties with Iran and is part of the world Islamic Jihad. It's not fighting for it's people (Hamas is actualy rather cruel to Palestinians too, if a video I linked for is to be believed - I admit to have little knowledge on the subject), it's stated target is to destroy "The Zionist Enemy". Literaly destroy, killing as many as possible in the process. While Israel is taking pains to lower the death tole among Palestinians while doing battle, Hamas is targeting civilians almost exclusivley.
2) Israel is using unfair and unjustified oppression against Palestinians. It is a bullheaded and racist and religeous country which I greatly dislike.
3) There is no solution in sight to the situation around here - going around saying, "well just make peace already!" shows a great misunderstanding of the area and it's history. Palestinians refuse to even start negotiation without being promised some things that Israel is not, and can not, be willing to give (like allowing Gaza to have it's own army -while still being lead by a group stating clearly that Israel's destruction is it's goal). Meanwhile, the pigs running Israel refuse to stop building new internationaly illegalized and scorned settlements, stealing what little territory Palestinians have, ensuring that the hatred of an already opressed people continues to grow.
4) Given point 3 and point 1, I don't think any other country on the globe would act better than Israel does in this war. As we agreed earlier in this thread, every country would kill a thousand people from another country to ensure the safety of even one of it's own citizens. Hamas is threatening over 2 million people in the range of it's missile fire, and it often does more than threaten. When it does, who can really expect Israel not to react? The very existance of the racial dispute (jews vs arabs), and the opression and the entire *background* of the situation is unjustifiable, but given that it's a fact of life around here and that changing it is impossible right now...
was is atrociuos. Terrible things happen. Everey small mistake the IDF does costs innocent human lives. That's bad. However, the IDF simply has to do something, and given that it's doing it in a very responsible way. Iv'e talked with many level headed people who are awere of secret information the army has (due to serving in the army) and I don't, and all of them, without relation to each other, tell me just how hard they and their peers were working to minimize civilian casualties.
5) Some blame Israel in that it's attacks against Hamas are inherently pointless, since they are incapable of actualy destroying the organaization (without resorting to much more brutal methods) and therefore every life lost in these attacks s a stuipd, pointless waste. That's true. What's also true is that every single missile Hamas is shooting at Israeli civilians is pointless, since that method proved to not only be ineffective at achieving much of anything, it also provokes Israel to strike back, often killing Hamas operatives and sometimes killing civilians as well.
The blame for the idiotic killing is on both sides. You, and many other internationaly, seem to place it solely on Israel's side. That's unfair.
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Speaking of another subject, Gaza is now a state, according to the U.N!
I think that's great news and a historical step toward a time where actual talks of peace can happen.
To my regret, Israel has taken to steps in response to that:
1) building many more settlments in the most sensitive areas, E1 and jerusalem. Bah. That's the most idiotic thing Iv'e ever heard. It's piggish, needless, stuipd, pointless, agressive just simply evil. At least now the govrenment is admitting that those settlement are used to punish and humalitale the Palestinians.
2) Israel pulled the plug on the money it's supposed to transfer to Gaza (about 300 million NIS, equals to about $750K, we'll see what happens when the next bunch of money is due). I acutaly can see how this is kind of justified... if the U.N honestly think that Gaza is ready and worthy of being it's own soverign entity, than Israel is no longer obliged to ensure Gaza has enough money to operate... All those generous countries that donated huge amounts of money and help to Israel when it was a young country are called to be generous again and help another young country to start it's way.
I (and many other around here) do not agree with the agressive policy the government is using. Hopefuly, on the long run, the entire ordeal will do more good than harm. We'll see.
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Welcome back lord snow. Back to it then? :)
BigNorseWolf - you blamed me, about 5 forum pages ago, in "teamism", that is justifying everything Israel does and laying all the blame on the Palestinians. I am really surprised at that accusation, because to me it seems that in order to think something like that you'll have to ignore about half the things I said.
My points, in snippets, were:1) Hamas is a terrorist organaization.
Rather than needing to ignore your points, your points underscore my statements. Here is the teamism writ large. Hamas, despite winning a democratic election in a land slide, is a terrorist organization, not a government.
Why?
It has known ties with Iran and is part of the world Islamic Jihad.
What does Iran for foreign policy do that the US doesn't?
It's not fighting for it's people (Hamas is actualy rather cruel to Palestinians too, if a video I linked for is to be believed - I admit to have little knowledge on the subject), it's stated target is to destroy "The Zionist Enemy". Literaly destroy, killing as many as possible in the process. While Israel is taking pains to lower the death tole among Palestinians while doing battle, Hamas is targeting civilians almost exclusivley.
Israel isn't exactly nice to its own citizens that aren't entirely on board either.
Nobody panics when things go according to plan. Even if the plan is horrifying. If tomorrow I tell the press that like a gang banger, will get shot, or a truckload of soldiers will be blown up, nobody panics, because it’s all, part of the plan. But when I say that one, little old mayor will die, well then everyone loses their minds! - The joker.
Dead soldiers don't change anyone's minds. Its insane, but people think they're supposed to die.
2) Israel is using unfair and unjustified oppression against Palestinians. It is a bullheaded and racist and religeous country which I greatly dislike.
And how are people supposed to react to that oppression ?
3) There is no solution in sight to the situation around here - going around saying, "well just make peace already!" shows a great misunderstanding of the area and it's history. Palestinians refuse to even start negotiation without being promised some things that Israel is not, and can not, be willing to give (like allowing Gaza to have it's own army -while still being lead by a group stating clearly that Israel's destruction is it's goal).
Lets say I appoint you to the head of the isreali government and sit you down at camp david with Fayyad. In terms of peace agreements, what do you want that he can give you?
Meanwhile, the pigs running Israel refuse to stop building new internationally illegalized and scorned settlements, stealing what little territory Palestinians have, ensuring that the hatred of an already opressed people continues to grow.
Thats the plan. You know that's happening, but why are you against armed resistance to it?
4) Given point 3 and point 1, I don't think any other country on the globe would act better than Israel does in this war.
I think many other nations could solve the problem by offering the Palestinians citizenship.
Israel is in a rather unique situation in that its adherence to a genetic/religious identity is what keeps it from doing that.
As we agreed earlier in this thread, every country would kill a thousand people from another country to ensure the safety of even one of it's own citizens. Hamas is threatening over 2 million people in the range of it's missile fire and it often does more than threaten. When it does, who can really expect Israel not to react?
Right, but when the situation is reversed how do you not expect hamas to react to the threat of ITS 2.6 million people in range or israels helicopters, tanks and missles? Thats the teamism. Israels reactions are understandable self defense but Hamas' is not. Why is israel's reaction understandable but hamas' not?
The blame for the idiotic killing is on both sides. You, and many other internationaly, seem to place it solely on Israel's side. That's unfair.
The Palestinians can do nothing to change their fate. Israel gets all the blame because Israel has all the power. The fact that the major road block to a solution is Israel's insistence on keeping the government tied to race doesn't do it any favors in my book.
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BigNorseWolf,
It is true that Israel is guarding it's racial identity closely... in theory I already stated that I agree with that notion, even though it makes me feel sad and angry at the world. The fact is, Jews worldwide nead the backbone that only a Jewish nation can provide. Unfourtonatley many people in my country took the "racial identity" idea and made it into a "racist identity".
My point: the only viable solution is creating a seperate nation for Palestinians (that's why I am excited about the fact that this was declared officialy in the U.N, even though Israel is still sitting way past the 1967 borders), and that solution is only viable in theory. In practice it's a long way off.
You asked,
"Why is israel's reaction understandable but hamas' not?"
My problem is not with people who say that Hamas' reaction is not understandable - it's with people who say that Israels' is not. Somehow Hamas are called "freedom fighters" who "have no choice but to shoot", and the IDF is the big evil army without a soul.
Now, spin words as you like, Hamas is a terrorist group. It is using terrorist methods, it's motivations are not to represent the good of it's "people" but to destroy Israel - their arguments are based on religeon, the way they express themselves is strictly Jihadist. Seriously, just compare them with Al Quaida and you will see the striking resemblance. From Wikipedia:
"n June 2011, the Independent Commission for Human Rights based in Ramallah published a report whose findings included that the Palestinians in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip were subjected in 2010 to an "almost systematic campaign" of human rights abuses by the Palestinian Authority and Hamas, as well as by Israeli authorities, with the security forces belonging to the PA and Hamas being responsible for torture, arrests and arbitrary detentions.[311]
In 2012 the Human Rights Watch presented a 43 page long list of human rights violation committed by Hamas. Among actions attributed to Hamas the HRW report mentions beatings with metal clubs and rubber hoses, hanging of alleged collaborationists with Israel, and torture of 102 individuals. According to the report, Hamas also tortured civil society activists and peaceful protesters. Reflecting on the captivity of Gilad Shalit, the HRW report described it as "cruel and inhuman". The report also slams Hamas for harassment of people based on so called morality offenses and for media censorship.[312][313] In a public statement Joe Stork, the deputy Middle East director of HRW claimed that "after five years of Hamas rule in Gaza, its criminal justice system reeks of injustice, routinely violates detainees' rights and grants impunity to abusive security services". Hamas responded by denying charges and describing them as "politically motivated""
And that's what Hamas does to it's own people that it fight so valiantly to rescue from a life of abuse....
Read the rest of the Wikipedia article, too. You'll see that Hamas has only ever agreed to make a ceasefire of Israel backed away to the 1967 boarders, but it's declared intent is to wipse Israel off the map, or agreed to a more lasting peace in exchange for the right of return which again, is just not a bargaining cheap Israel could ever use. The organaization is based on agression, it's founded on the idea of conquest, and it's hands are very bloody, considering that, as you put it, "all the power is on Israels' side." If that's what Hamas does with no power at all...
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My problem is not with people who say that Hamas' reaction is not understandable - it's with people who say that Israels' is not. Somehow Hamas are called "freedom fighters" who "have no choice but to shoot", and the IDF is the big evil army without a soul.
THIS is why.
It is true that Israel is guarding it's racial identity closely... in theory I already stated that I agree with that notion, even though it makes me feel sad and angry at the world. The fact is, Jews worldwide need the backbone that only a Jewish nation can provide. Unfortunately many people in my country took the "racial identity" idea and made it into a "racist identity".
The Palestinians are fighting because you’re oppressing them. Their land is taken, their rights are taken, they live in squalor enforced at from the barrel of a gun and you won’t even let them leave. I can very easily understand why they want to blow your head off, even if from a purely rational perspective it might not be the best course of action.
At the end of the day the Israelis are fighting to maintain an idea that is paranoia at best and racist at worst. I have a hard time understanding, much less condoning, either.You have no right to be sad and angry at the world for conditions that simply do not exist as you see them. No one is going to say “Whoo hooo they can’t retreat to Israel. We got em trapped boys! Get your guns and your pickup and lets invade New Jersey!” (I suppose in England they’d have to chase you out with hardened loaves of bread or something)
Now, spin words as you like
I am not spinning words. If I was any blunter I’d be knocking over pins.
Hamas is a terrorist group. It is using terrorist methods, it's motivations are not to represent the good of it's "people" but to destroy Israel - their arguments are based on religion, the way they express themselves is strictly Jihadist..
More teamism. This is really easy to turn around.
I can just as easily say that Israel is a terrorist group. It is using terrorist methods (bombings, assassinations, sabotage, theft, intimidation,). Terrorist is a really easy label to apply.
Its motivations are not to represent the good of it's "people" but to destroy Palastine. (the difference is that Israel is succeeding) Accepting the 67 borders is hardly the destruction of Israel.
Israel’s entire reason to be is religious.
What election did al-Quada win? What territory to they control?
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*slow clap*
Human Rights Watch report on bombing of the al-Dalu family
My favorite part:
"Israel has offered different explanations for what happened. Just after the attack, IDF spokesperson Lt. Col. Avital Liebovitch described the strike as an accident that Israel was “still looking into it.” She said the intended target had been a man “in charge of rocket launching.”
Another IDF spokesperson, Brig. Gen. Yoav Mordechai, said on television the day of the strike that the Israeli military had tried to target a senior member of Hamas’s armed wing, the al-Qassam Brigades, whom he identified as Yahia Abayah. “Although I don't know the outcome, there were civilians harmed by this,” he was reported as saying.
Members of the Dalu family and neighbors told Human Rights Watch they had not heard of anyone named Yahia Abayah. His name is not listed as a killed fighter on the official websites of Hamas’s al-Qassam Brigades or Islamic Jihad’s Saraya al-Quds.
On November 27, five days after Mohamed al-Dalu’s body was found, Lt. Col. Liebovitch said that the military had targeted Mohamed al-Dalu because he was a “known terror operative affiliated with the military wing of Hamas.” She provided no information to support the claim.
The IDF did not respond to a request from Human Rights Watch for more information."
South Korea is under a much greater menace than Israel and it's not at war with North Korea.
Not to take away from your points, but I thought the Korean War was officially still happening.
*slow clap*
I actually lol'ed at the hardened loaves of bread part. Jolly good show, BNW! I second the slow clap.
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...I don't think any other country on the globe would act better than Israel does in this war. As we agreed earlier in this thread, every country would kill a thousand people from another country to ensure the safety of even one of it's own citizens. Hamas is threatening over 2 million people in the range of it's missile fire, and it often does more than threaten. When it does, who can really expect Israel not to react? The very existance of the racial dispute (jews vs arabs), and the opression and the entire *background* of the situation is unjustifiable, but given that it's a fact of life around here and that changing it is impossible right now...South Korea is under a much greater menace than Israel and it's not at war with North Korea.
Western Europe was living for almost five decades under the threat of Soviet Union nuclear warhead (still considered more dangerous than Hamas rockets...).
Several thousands Bosnians were killed in extermination camps during the 90s, nonetheless the muslim Bosnia is now at peace with the christian Serbia.I believe many other countries had found a way to make peace if they were in Israel position.
Once again, Iran having nuclear bomb will (start to) change that. Being able to destroy each other Israel and Iran will be forced to speak and listen to each other (much like the USA and Soviet Union). But it might take a little bit time as I'm afraid Iran (beyond the words) doesn't care much about Israel and Palestinia.
Only when war will become too risky/costly will Israel make definitive efforts to reach peace.The past 60 years proved us there are two ways to reach peace:
1. The balance of terror (USA-Soviet Union, North Korea-South Korea);
2. Building strong and deep economical and institutional ties in absolute respect and recognition of each other (European countries)
What I meant was, given that Israel is being shot at, it reacts by shooting back. Every single country in the world would do so. Most countries will not take nearly as much care to avoid the death of citizens on the other side of the conflict.
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@BigNorseWolf,
"Its motivations are not to represent the good of it's "people" but to destroy Palastine"
... Umm, you are awere, I hope, that Israel has (much) more than the amount of firepower it would take to raze Gaza to the ground and kill every man, woman and child living there in like, 5 days? That's without even resorting to unconventional warfare that the army is probably keeping somewhere hidden (like any other army in the world). What makes you think that Israel is willing to destroy the Palestinian people? going into all the bother with the precision targeting, spending more than we can probably efford on advanced missiles... why bother? No, if Israel was intrested in destroying the Palestinian people that would have happened already. As you mentioned yourself, Israel has all the power.
You seemed to pointedly ignore the fact that Hamas is a terrible ruler, nothing about it (except being elected, and I'd eat my hat if violance, hamula power struggles and bribery weren't involved in that election) is even remotley democratic, and it's abusing it's own people nearly as bad as Israel itself.
"What election did al-Quada win? What territory to they control?"
Oh, so if you behave exactly the same as Al-Quada except you won an election and you own a piece of land you are no longer a terrorist power group? you of all people who is quick to apply terms like "terrorists" to Israel should be aware that trivialties like being recognized as a country are meaningless - what you do with your power is everything. Hamas is behaving like Al-Quada and opresses the people it's supposed to represent. Israel is not acting like Al-Quada (if the balance of forces was reversed - if Hamas had all the power - they wouldn't hesitate for a second before exterminating Israel), and it opresses the same people as Hamas is opressing.
Israel is certianly not the "good side" of the conflict, don't take that to be my meaning... but there is a "worst side", and that's Hamas.
final point -
" Accepting the 67 borders is hardly the destruction of Israel."
read the wikipedia article more carefuly. Hamas representitives are not willing to cease hostilities if the 67 borders are reanected, they are willing to have a prolonged ceasefire. Maybe after 20 years of no fighting Hamas will not resume to it's warpath, maybe it will... but their ambition is NOT the 67 borders. That's just a milestone. Thier stated goal was (and remains) wiping Israel off the map. Imagine yourself in the position of the prime minister of Israel. Hamas are looking at you in the eyes and saying, "we want to wipe your contry off the map. We will never sop wanting that. Now, if you'll give us some of our lands back and allow us to become an actual country and build an army that will one day fight you, we promise to not murder any of your citizens for 20 years!". Can you seriously accept such an offer?
Note: that still dosen't mean I agree with most of Israel's policy regarding the Palestinian people, but... certain things I think are understandable.
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Also, some selected qoutes to demonstrate my point:
"...Ismail Haniyeh, the political leader of Hamas, said that if a Palestinian state was formed within the 1967 lines, Hamas was willing to declare a truce that could last as long as 20 years, and stated that Hamas will never recognize the "usurper Zionist government" and will continue "jihad-like movement until the liberation of Jerusalem"
"Hamas later publicly offered a long-term truce with Israel if Israel agreed to return to its 1967 borders and grant the "right of return" to all Palestinian refugees.[58]"
Agree with it or not (and I am slightly offended at you naming my fear a "unjustified paranoia"... Iv'e been outside of Israel, I know 99% of people don't really care that I'm jewish, I also know that it only takes 1 violent man or woman who DOES care about it... and it could be game over. Iv'e seen Swastikas painted on walls, Iv'e studied the holocaust much moure thoroughly than you did and have relatives who perished there, every now and then a hate crime happens in europe and I hear about it and you probably don't, plus the entire Muslim world is not all that enthusiastic about Jews right now... I still mean to live my life outside of Israel, but Iv'e seen my grandfather's eyes when he talked of the time before the country existed. Iv'e seen the fear, and Iv'e seen the intensity when he told me, "you are not nearly as safe as you might feel". And then he told me of how and why he fled Europe to Palestine to be amongst Jews. I am guessing you are a white American male. Don't judge minorities by their fears - you don't live in it, you don't get to experience it. Again, by Jewish standards I am very moderate, and I do feel safe right now... but I also know that there is a real danger that things could take a quick turn to the worst and if that happens, I need an intimidating Jewish country with an intimidating Jewish army making sure that s*&t dosen't hit the fan on a political scale), Israel is unwilling to give the right of return and become a non Jewish country, so that qoute by the Hamas is 100% meaningless.
" Mkhaimer Abusada, a political scientist at Al Azhar University, writes that Hamas talks "of hudna [temporary ceasefire], not of peace or reconciliation with Israel. They believe over time they will be strong enough to liberate all historic Palestine.""
Also that.
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"Its motivations are not to represent the good of it's "people" but to destroy Palastine"
Go back. Read this again. The entire paragraph.
I am not saying that this is the case. I am saying its very easy to SAY that it is the case, just like you can simply say anything you want about the Palestinians to label them terrorists. Your labeling of them as terrorists are the only thing justifying their persecution. I'm demonstrating that that label is incredibly easy to apply.
In other words, you can't just say "they're the terrorists and we're not so we can treat them like terrorists.
... Umm, you are awere, I hope, that Israel has (much) more than the amount of firepower it would take to raze Gaza to the ground and kill every man, woman and child living there in like, 5 days?
There are limits to what Israels neighbors will put up with.
That's without even resorting to unconventional warfare that the army is probably keeping somewhere hidden (like any other army in the world).
You're too close together for unconventional weapons. You can't hit the west bank with anything with a blast radius bigger than a paintball grenade without hitting a settlement too.
What makes you think that Israel is willing to destroy the Palestinian people?
History.
The slow and inexorable advance of Israel has been doing just that.
You seemed to pointedly ignore the fact that Hamas is a terrible ruler, nothing about it (except being elected, and I'd eat my hat if violance, hamula power struggles and bribery weren't involved in that election) is even remotley democratic, and it's abusing it's own people nearly as bad as Israel itself.
I can't tell how good they are. If you hand a government no money no power and no control is it really a surprise that you get no results? Its like handing someone a rock, telling them to cut down trees and then saying "wow thats a horrible lumberjack"
Like most elections I'm pretty sure the power struggles and bribery aren't just used by one side: they more or less balance out. Hamas didn't win by a margin small enough for me to believe that they didn't actually win.
Oh, so if you behave exactly the same as Al-Quada except you won an election and you own a piece of land you are no longer a terrorist power group?
Every revolution goes through a phase where the terrorists actually have to start to govern something.
you of all people who is quick to apply terms like "terrorists" to Israel should be aware that trivialties like being recognized as a country are meaningless - what you do with your power is everything.
And a large part of what Israel did with its power is to take other peoples land. How are people supposed to react to that?
Hamas is behaving like Al-Quada and opresses the people it's supposed to represent. Israel is not acting like Al-Quada (if the balance of forces was reversed - if Hamas had all the power - they wouldn't hesitate for a second before exterminating Israel)
Thats kind of odd, considering that the jewish population seems to have done relatively ok in the area since the 1400's at least.
Israel is certainly not the "good side" of the conflict, don't take that to be my meaning... but there is a "worst side", and that's Hamas.
Israel is the side making arguments that people need to be oppressed in order to maintain one racial groups control. I don't care how much you claim to have studied the holocaust if you don't see why that's a problem then you didn't learn a damn thing.
Bad things are bad things whether they happen to your group or someone elses.
Maybe after 20 years of no fighting Hamas will not resume to it's warpath, maybe it will...
So you have to keep oppressing people now. Definitely repress the rights of actual, existing, suffering human beings NOW. You need to fire rockets, chase people off their land, drive people into unbearable squalor now because their kids MIGHT attack you in 20 years...
Words do not exist to explain the blithering inanity behind this reasoning. You cannot blame people for what they MIGHT do at an unforeseeable future 20 years down the road.
but their ambition is NOT the 67 borders. That's just a milestone. Thier stated goal was (and remains) wiping Israel off the map.
And they can do this .... how?
I mean sure, a Rottweiler growls at you you get scared and kick it (not smart but understandable). A Chihuahua barks at you, you can't just punt the thing across the room.
Imagine yourself in the position of the prime minister of Israel. Hamas are looking at you in the eyes and saying, "we want to wipe your contry off the map. We will never sop wanting that. Now, if you'll give us some of our lands back and allow us to become an actual country and build an army that will one day fight you, we promise to not murder any of your citizens for 20 years!". Can you seriously accept such an offer?
Yes. Because 20 years is a long time to change someone's mind about whether or not I need to be whiped off the face of the earth. Times change, persons don't change but people do (usually by being replaced)
Note: that still dosen't mean I agree with most of Israel's policy regarding the Palestinian people, but... certain things I think are understandable.
If you were in charge what would you? Israel has a tiger by the tail. You're hurting the thing hanging on and you're afraid to let go.
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Agree with it or not (and I am slightly offended at you naming my fear a "unjustified paranoia"... Iv'e been outside of Israel, I know 99% of people don't really care that I'm jewish, I also know that it only takes 1 violent man or woman who DOES care about it...
Or one car accident, or one lightning strike, or one case of food poisoning, or slipping in the tub and breaking your neck.
You cannot reasonably demand a perfectly safe world as a reason for oppressing people.
and it could be game over. Iv'e seen Swastikas painted on walls, Iv'e studied the holocaust much moure thoroughly than you did and have relatives who perished there, every now and then a hate crime happens in europe and I hear about it and you probably don't
The numbers don't lie. Something like that is very rare, it just gets a lot of exposure.
plus the entire Muslim world is not all that enthusiastic about Jews right now...
I keep poking this bear with a stick. Now its mad at me. I better keep poking it so it stays away.
I still mean to live my life outside of Israel, but Iv'e seen my grandfather's eyes when he talked of the time before the country existed. Iv'e seen the fear, and Iv'e seen the intensity when he told me, "you are not nearly as safe as you might feel". And then he told me of how and why he fled Europe to Palestine to be amongst Jews.
And you don't think the world might have changed a bit in the last 60 years?
I am guessing you are a white American male. Don't judge minorities by their fears - you don't live in it, you don't get to experience it.
I do get to point out when the reality doesn't match your perception. You are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts.
Again, by Jewish standards I am very moderate, and I do feel safe right now... but I also know that there is a real danger that things could take a quick turn to the worst
HOW?
I mean under what possible sequence of events does the US go from "you're jewish? HA! no presents from santa for you!" to another holocaust?
and if that happens, I need an intimidating Jewish country with an intimidating Jewish army making sure that s*&t dosen't hit the fan on a political scale)
Under the answer to the above question, what would israel do to change things?
Israel is unwilling to give the right of return and become a non Jewish country, so that qoute by the Hamas is 100% meaningless.
Its like haggling in an arab market. They MIGHT get some of the settlements withdrawn. So they start the bidding at the right of return and haggle it back and forth from there.
" Mkhaimer Abusada, a political scientist at Al Azhar University, writes that Hamas talks "of hudna [temporary ceasefire], not of peace or reconciliation with Israel. They believe over time they will be strong enough to liberate all historic Palestine.""
Given that armies are getting more mechanized and sophisticated, not less, i don't see how waiting 20 years is supposed to get them anything.
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BigNorseWolf,
first I want to say I admire you patience and the amount of work you are putting into this thread... I mean doing all those qoute /qoute boxes takes a lot of time, and your posts are always big, so, thanks for taking me seriously :)
back to the matter at hand, Hamas is now really weak since Israel is doing everything in it's power to prevent any sort of advanced weaponry to fall to their hands. Right now, if Israel sends a rumbling tank into Gaza or a helicopter above it's skies we can rest assured there's not a damned thing Hamas can do about that. However, give them their own country and the right to build an army... suddenly the playfield is much more even. In 1948 the zionists of the time were able to defeat the armies of Eygpt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon AND the palestinians themselves thanks to some small amounts of "modern" weapons provided by the U.S and other nations at the time... there is no doubt at all that facing an army is more dangerous than facing a group of not well trained Jihadists firing ineffective rockets and digging tunnels under a fence. Hamas is a threat right now but not an existantial one. Give it 20 years to raise an army...
I hate doing this, but I will use the following link to underline my point- short term concessions to an enemey who is saying clear as day what his intentions are can breed a monster.
Note to avoide an argument about this point: diffrent times, diffrens situations, I know this well, but there are some smilarities.
"there are limits to what Israels neighbors will put up with."
are there, though? Right now as I am typing this, dozens of people are being slaughtered every day in Syria. Al-Assad is shaping up to be the worst butcher this part of the world has known in those past hundred years, hack, maybe even ever. He and the rebel forces are fighting, citizens are being blantly and delibarately shot at. And like the rest of the world, the Arab countries around us remain silent about it (except for Hizzbalah which actualy supports Al-Assad :P).
That situation has been going on for how long, now? according to wikipedia there are already 40,000 dead and they just keep on piling up.
And you know what? even if the Arab countries around us would really against Israel... it wouldn't do much. Over the past 60 years Israel has one 3 seperate wars against all the Arab countries at the same time, and in each such succesive occasion those countries were bloodied worse - I am talking about the war of indapendance (1948), the six-day-war (1967)and the Yom Kippur war (1973) that officialy only involved Israel, Syria and Eygpt but many other countries across the globe (including, I just found out, North Korea) sent help in the form of entire regiments I Iraq and Iran were the biggest of the generous doners).
Yeah, Israel is not afraid of the surrounding neighbours and they truly don't seem to give a rat's ars about the fate of their kin and blood. Right now eygpt is busy trying to stablize itself after the revolution it experienced, in Jordan they are busy asking themselves if they prefer to live under their king or his cousin (seriously), Lebanon has been silent for a long time and it seems Hizzbalah had enough of fighting Israel for the time being. So I repeat, if Israel had an intention to raze Gaza, now is a wonderful chance to do so.
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I am guessing you are a white American male.You're wrong, I'm from western Europe, don't think Nazi were only killing Jews, don't think Christians were not suffering. Don't forget people were risking their lives to protect Jewish families. Don't forget German disabled were the first to experience Nazi monstrosity.
You studied Holocaust so you know this.
If you know a bit about European history you know that war is never a long term positive issue. The problem is not that you're stronger than Palestinians, the problem is that you humiliate them and humiliated people are dangerous. Can you be sure you'll be forever the strongest?Hamas will not survive a peace with Israel.
Without a war to hide its incompetence Hamas will loose all support from Palestinians very quickly.
If Israel makes peace (a real one), Hamas will make its best to end it and, if Israel is able to handle this bloody provocations Hamas will "disappear".
Angstspawn, I was refering to BigNorseWolf at that post, I don't really know you as much as I know him :P
About Hamas losing power - that's what I think will happen, too, but I'll be hard pressed to say that it's a safe bet to make. You are talking about the risk of creating a powerful, purposeful army that might not fight by the pretty rules the U.N set up to make sure warfare remains civilized. I mean, who's to say Hamas will actualy wait the promised 20 years? They know they can't rule in a time of peace just as much as you and I know that, what's to stop them from using 3 - 5 years preparing a mighty army and then start fighting again? And let's say we in Israel see them preparing an army and training it beyond what's agreed upon - do we attack? what did we achieve by all that? No, this kind of risk is grand on a historical scale, you can't really just handwave a reason why it's a good one without examining everything kown about the situation very carefuly... and I assure you that Israeli prime ministers over the years had access to knowledge you and I can't access. They all (left wing prime ministers as well as the modern right wing extremists) came to the conclusion that this is a bad idea. Consider that.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I still think there's one very crucial question that hasn't been answered yet.
How can you (general Jewish you) justify doing to someone else what you decry has been done to you in the past (and has sought amendment for - to the point of getting a whole country (which apparently wasn't enough))?
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About the entire holocaust thing, and fear of persecution:
BigNorseWolf, I never said anything about America, that has always been the safest place in the world for Jews, I believe. But Europe? Russia? did you watch Fiddler on the Roof? well, the scene where the Tzar sends his troops to rough up Jew Town are evrey bit as accurate as the parts about the Jews being a secluded racist community. You asked me if I don't think the world has changed in the past 60 years. I'll replay that in certain aspects, the world hasn't changed much in 10,000 years (Yeah, I know that that's before Jews exsited, I'm not talking about persecution against Jews specificaly). It's easy - REAL easy, to turn humans into clans killing each other for the most moronic reasons. Ever since the onset of the christian religeon in the western world, Jews rarely enjoyed any sort of fair treatment anywhere. And just when it seemed that the world was becoming civilized? in the 20th century Europe showed it's darker nature and we all know what happened there. Bad thing is it wasn't just the Germans who suddenly woke up one day with evil in their souls and started the most methodological mass murder in the history of mankind, they were nearly always aided by the local community they captured in collecting the Jewsa and usualy in killing them as well. The worst concentration camps and death camps were located in Poland and manned by Polish soldiers, not proper Natzis. The mowing down of hundreds of thousands with orderly machine gun fire was performed usualy by local russians. Holland, the president of France, recently took historical blame for France taking an active part in the Jewish Hlocaust. During the war, even in places where the Natzi army never set foot, Jews were attacked by mobs, their houses and possesions stolen and them having to run for their lives through a war torn land.
decades later, just a little bit of time before Stalin died,[url = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctors%27_plot#Speculation_about_a_planned_deportation_of_Jews] he decided to join the fun too.[/url]
Documantries Iv'e seen also clearly show Jewish hatred and prejudice in south U.S, along with hatred of black (I'm not really sure what the proper term is these days) and gay and communist... Jews just seemed to be tucked along to hate lists, because it's easy.
Now I'm not really picturing a situation where a thug is about to assault a Jew and then think better of it because Israel exists. I am picturing a situation where no country would dare abuse Jews the way theu used to when the proverbial blade of the Mossad assasin is never far from the governer's throat, when Israel is in charge of a big army and has an A bomb in case that's needed. I know, I sound all militaristic and offensive but that's kind of the point. Israel had worked hard over the years to become an intimidating presence in the world, exaclty for that reason. It's not abusing it's power (except in the local conflict), it's not actualy threatening to use it's A bombs (unlike Iran, for example), but it's there, and everybody knows it. Guess what? that's reassuring. And you would be reassured to, in my place. Can you sincerly think otherwise?
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I still think there's one very crucial question that hasn't been answered yet.
How can you (general Jewish you) justify doing to someone else what you decry has been done to you in the past (and has sought amendment for - to the point of getting a whole country (which apparently wasn't enough))?
On a conceptual scale there is no excuse whatsoever to opress any people, and that has nothing to do with the fact that Jews were opressed themselves. There's simply no excuse for some of the crimes Israel is commiting.
On a pragmatic scale though, given the reality right now, SOME of the opresion is a necessity of reality. Right now there's a whole group of people living in Gaza who are out for Israeli blood. So the long lines at the gates of the security fence? kind of a necessity, you have to double check every single car. The fence itself? before we built it there was a crushing wave of suicide bombers who struck several times a week. Thing in Gaza have been getting worse and worse lately and that's because with every escalation in the conflict Israel took more and more severe measures to ensure the safety of it's citizens. Ever been to an airport? remember all the redundant security measures meant to ensure NOTHING can get past them and take down an aircraft? Everywhere in Israel is like that. To enter a shopping mall or a train station you go through a metal detector and an x ray scanner checks your bag, or if you are in a car you are stopped and your baggae is examined. And those are the protocols withing Israel itself - obviously on the border things are more intense.
Since there is no agreement that could lead to a quick peaceful solution of the conflict (The most problematic issue is the right of return), Israel can be understood in taking extreme measures to prevent attacks on it's population.
Can you understand that in sympathise with that? if you can't then there's no point in us talking because that's the reality around here. If you can then you'll see that (some) of the opression is a necessity and that the Palestinian people are a victim of circumstances. It just seems that there is nothing else that can be done right now.
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I still think there's one very crucial question that hasn't been answered yet.
How can you (general Jewish you) justify doing to someone else what you decry has been done to you in the past (and has sought amendment for - to the point of getting a whole country (which apparently wasn't enough))?On a conceptual scale there is no excuse whatsoever to opress any people, and that has nothing to do with the fact that Jews were opressed themselves. There's simply no excuse for some of the crimes Israel is commiting.
On a pragmatic scale though, given the reality right now, SOME of the opresion is a necessity of reality. Right now there's a whole group of people living in Gaza who are out for Israeli blood. So the long lines at the gates of the security fence? kind of a necessity, you have to double check every single car. The fence itself? before we built it there was a crushing wave of suicide bombers who struck several times a week. Thing in Gaza have been getting worse and worse lately and that's because with every escalation in the conflict Israel took more and more severe measures to ensure the safety of it's citizens. Ever been to an airport? remember all the redundant security measures meant to ensure NOTHING can get past them and take down an aircraft? Everywhere in Israel is like that. To enter a shopping mall or a train station you go through a metal detector and an x ray scanner checks your bag, or if you are in a car you are stopped and your baggae is examined. And those are the protocols withing Israel itself - obviously on the border things are more intense.
Since there is no agreement that could lead to a quick peaceful solution of the conflict (The most problematic issue is the right of return), Israel can be understood in taking extreme measures to prevent attacks on it's population.
Can you understand that in sympathise with that? if you can't then there's no point in us talking because that's the reality around here. If you can then you'll see that (some) of the opression is a necessity and that the Palestinian people are a victim of circumstances. It just seems that there is nothing else that can be done right now.
You're handily ignoring that the cause of all of the above is because you (the Israeli state) is the reason you are getting attacked. Constant expansion, no acknowledgement of being the guilty party in much of this, making life miserable for people who were there in the first place etc. - apparently Israelis can't fathom that this might be the cause of why they are attacked all the time.
So you're trying to justify the "security measures" you have to take by pointing to the attacks, which happen because of said "security measures" - it'sYOU (the Israeli state) have key to all of this. Going back to the '48 or '67 border would be a first step.
Just throwing your hands up and saying "Well, that's how things are" isn't going to change things one bit - except ensure the slow destruction of Palestinian territories.
If you (the Israeli people) can't convince your politicians that this has to happen, then you have to live with the consequences of your inaction and you have only yourself to blame, not the Palestinians.
So, if you're really interested in stopping all of this, now is the time to start organizing people. Hold protests, write your government, gain traction among the people. If things are so hard with constant bombardments I'm sure you should have no problem finding lots of people who are tired of it, right?
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On a pragmatic scale though, given the reality right now, SOME of the oppression is a necessity of reality.
G*&#*!mit NO!.
There is always... ALWAYS an excuse to oppress someone. There is always a reason you can use to justify the "neccesity" of treating someone in a manner you would consider deplorable if it were done to you.
These people are savages! Civilize them and Christianize them... by making them work in our gold mines of course.
Oh look. They seem to be attacking us. Well I suppose we have to "Defend" ourselves now. Put the survivors in the gold mines.
Hey, we need people to farm the land or we'll starve to death. That of course gives us the right to go to africa, kidnap people, kill about a third of them on the way here and make them farm crops for us.
And hey, once we've done that we have to keep them in chains. After all if we let them out they might be mad at us for some reason... like putting them in chains.
Hey, that communal herding society isn't really "using" that land. Look at all the open space. Lets move people onto it while they're not there.
You're not supposed to study history for its own sake. You're supposed to learn from it so you don't keep falling for the same damn fool excuses people have used in the past the second someone slaps a new coat of paint on it.
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@Angstspawn,
1) yes more non Jews tha Jews were killed in WW2, but there are a LOT more non Jews than Jews in the first place. If you look at percantages a VERY large percantage of the European Jews were killed. We are talking of 6 million souls here, which only left only as much as a couple million in Europe - I'd say more than 50% of the Jews in Europe were murdered.
2) There was no Israel during WW2 and many of the survivors of the holocaust escaped to Palestian so yes, Israel has a claim on those dead. As I said before, it is rare to meet someone who dosen't have a relative remembering the holocaust.
3) Israel is not entitled to help other people in far away places any more than any other country. It *might* be expected to sympathise more, but that's about it. Like your country and the dozens of other countires who did nothing about Cambodia, "we" have our own problems. By the way, Israel *is* always in the front lines of rescue missions from natural disasters like the recent earthquake in Haiti or the tsunami in Japan. "We" just don't send our army to participate in local conflicts.
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On a pragmatic scale though, given the reality right now, SOME of the oppression is a necessity of reality.G++%$+mit NO!.
There is always... ALWAYS an excuse to oppress someone. There is always a reason you can use to justify the "neccesity" of treating someone in a manner you would consider deplorable if it were done to you.
These people are savages! Civilize them and Christianize them... by making them work in our gold mines of course.
Oh look. They seem to be attacking us. Well I suppose we have to "Defend" ourselves now. Put the survivors in the gold mines.
Hey, we need people to farm the land or we'll starve to death. That of course gives us the right to go to africa, kidnap people, kill about a third of them on the way here and make them farm crops for us.
And hey, once we've done that we have to keep them in chains. After all if we let them out they might be mad at us for some reason... like putting them in chains.
Hey, that communal herding society isn't really "using" that land. Look at all the open space. Lets move people onto it while they're not there.
You're not supposed to study history for its own sake. You're supposed to learn from it so you don't keep falling for the same damn fool excuses people have used in the past the second someone slaps a new coat of paint on it.
Now you are just being silly.
I have to take the train to get to the university where I study. At the entrance to the train is an armed man. I give my bag to him, and he puts it in an X-ray machine. Meanwhile, I walk through the frame of a metal detector. That kind of machine tends to not be very relayable so sometimes it beeps even though I have no metal on my person. The armed man then picks up his handheld metal detector and swoops it over my body (including over some private parts of it), and only after I get his O.K I can pick my bag (whose contents, which are generaly my buisness and nobody else's) have been viewd by strangers. The entire process is humiliating and it bypasses several of my most basic rights. I have been through opression. By my very own govrenment, no less.
Now obviously I can see why the entire process is required. Actualy, I'm happy to comply because I know everyone has to go through with it meaning the train ride will be safe. There is a very, and let me stress this point, VERY legitimate reason to opress me.
What Palestinians have to go through when they enter Israel is much the same, really. Except in that case security is tighter, to reflect the fact that the risk is greater. Not only are the soldiers at the border responsible to ensure that nothing dangerous slips through unnoticed, they are also in constant danger - they know they are very juicy targets for a Jihadist shooter. They have to stay very vigilant, very awere. They search cars, they allow dogs to try and smell any hidden gunpowder, they use metal detectors and when anything looks suspicious they are allowed to require a Palestinian to do all sorts of humiliating actions like stand facing a wall surrounded by armed soldiers while they are being searched. It's veyr unpleasent to watch and I'm sure it feels bad to go through, but you MUST see that this opression is only a more serious form of the one I go through as I want to enter a train station.
You are talking about how illegitemate it is to enslave a people or to conqure it. I agree, 100%, and I have said like 1,000,ooo times already that I am opposed to the imperialistic attitude of Israel. HOWEVER, some of the opression (NOT the conquest) is a legitimate means of safety. If you refuse to acknowledge that, we are at an impass.
Let's play a roleplay game. You are the ultimate authority in Israel. Your word will become the reality in the region. You now have to make some desicions. What do you change? what do you do diffrently. Choose carefuly because every life lost on every side of the conflict is your responsibility. And please be realistic about it - you SHOULD prioritise the needs and safety of your people more than that of other people, just as you would do if it was your country we are talking about, not Israel.
What do you do?
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You asked me if I don't think the world has changed in the past 60 years. I'll replay that in certain aspects, the world hasn't changed much in 10,000 years (Yeah, I know that that's before Jews exsited, I'm not talking about persecution against Jews specificaly).
60 years ago was 1952.
When Schools in the US were segregated.12 years before Nelson Mandela was imprisoned in South Africa.
Aboriginal people in Australia did not have the right to vote.
Japan was not a member of the United Nations and was still under occupation.
Germany was split in two between the US and the Soviets.
And a myriad of other things.
So it's a bit of a fallacy to state that the world hasn't changed much in 60 years...
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Lord Snow,
How about we play a slightly different game. You are the ultimate authority in Palestine. Your word will become the reality in the region. You now have to make some desicions. What do you change? what do you do diffrently. Choose carefuly because every life lost on every side of the conflict is your responsibility. And please be realistic about it - you SHOULD prioritise the needs and safety of your people more than that of other people, just as you would do if it was your country we are talking about, not Palestine.
What do you do?
BigNorseWolf,
first I want to say I admire you patience and the amount of work you are putting into this thread...
Pffths. this is easy. you're the one trying to dance with multiple people.
back to the matter at hand, Hamas is now really weak since Israel is doing everything in it's power to prevent any sort of advanced weaponry to fall to their hands. Right now, if Israel sends a rumbling tank into Gaza or a helicopter above it's skies we can rest assured there's not a damned thing Hamas can do about that. However, give them their own country and the right to build an army... suddenly the playfield is much more even.
They are not going to become an existential threat. You took on 6? entire countries worth of armies in 67. Since then you've been getting better toys and their toys have been rusting away in the desert.
I hate doing this, but I will use the following link to underline my point- short term concessions to an enemey who is saying clear as day what his intentions are can breed a monster.
And what about every single time where concessions have ended a war or prevented one?
are there, though? Right now as I am typing this, dozens of people are being slaughtered every day in Syria.
Yes, by other arabs.
Me against my brother.
Me and my brother against my father.
Me, my brother and my father against our uncle.
Me, my brother, my father, and my uncle against a stranger.
Leaders in the area don't want to come down too hard on syria because they realize they're perilously close to being in that situation themselves and they don't want to set a dangerous precedent.
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Lord Snow,
How about we play a slightly different game. You are the ultimate authority in Palestine. Your word will become the reality in the region. You now have to make some desicions. What do you change? what do you do diffrently. Choose carefuly because every life lost on every side of the conflict is your responsibility. And please be realistic about it - you SHOULD prioritise the needs and safety of your people more than that of other people, just as you would do if it was your country we are talking about, not Palestine.
What do you do?
Personaly I'd first change my goals from "wipe out the zionists and thier nation" to "having a nation of my own, preferably one with the 1967 borders". I will make that intention 190% clear to anyone willing to lend me an ear. I will work as great a pressure as I possibly can on the U.N to try and bring Israel to direct talks with me. I'd NOT insist on the Right of Return since that's just not as important as gaining indapendance. I'd gladly agree to a program that keeps my army at check for, say, the first 20 years of my rule, and keep my gates open and inviting to inspectors assigned by neautral U.N members who could make sure my intentions are pure.
All that's on the grand political scale though. My first order of action would be to divert all the money and resources used in the present to buy weaponry to more useful places, and use it to start lifting my people out of their poor shape. Public health systems and public schools would be my first order of priority. I'd haggle and bag until countries around the world would agree to help me by financing the studies of a selected few of my smartest citizens in unversities abroad, so that they may one day come back and lay the foundations of the society I'm trying to rebuild, but also start to mingle with the international society and make sure that the issue of the unjust conquest of my people is on as many minds as possible.
and most importantly I'll stop shooting. If I am being realistic and want to prevent as much of my citizens from getting killed I'd stop shooting at the people with the big bad airplanes that rain down tons tons of explosive on my populace.
Out Of Character: if all that I said could happen, I am certain there would be peace. I am also awere that many of the things I mentioned are not achievable in reality. power groups like Iran and the Muslim Brotherhood have an intrest in the continued conflict in Israel and they would not allow a truly peaceful regieme to replace Hamas. Maybe even the people themselves, the Palestinians, would not see the wisdom in a peaceful solution and would rather keep on fighting out of anger at the treatment they are getting.
Much like Israel, Gaza is rife with malign political powers who do everything in their power to keep the heat going in the conflict. Realisty is COMPLEX, the solution is nowhere in sight, and people are set on paths of mutual killing. That's sad and true.
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Yeah. More serious in the way...Now you are just being silly.
I have to take the train to get to the university where I study. At the entrance to the train is an armed man. I give my bag to him, and he puts it in an X-ray machine. Meanwhile, I walk through the frame of a metal detector. That kind of machine tends to not be very relayable so sometimes it beeps even though I have no metal on my person. The armed man then picks up his handheld metal detector and swoops it over my body (including over some private parts of it), and only after I get his O.K I can pick my bag (whose contents, which are generaly my buisness and nobody else's) have been viewd by strangers. The entire process is humiliating and it bypasses several of my most basic rights. I have been through opression. By my very own govrenment, no less.
Now obviously I can see why the entire process is required. Actualy, I'm happy to comply because I know everyone has to go through with it meaning the train ride will be safe. There is a very, and let me stress this point, VERY legitimate reason to opress me.
What Palestinians have to go through when they enter Israel is much the same, really. Except in that case security is tighter, to reflect the fact that the risk is greater. Not only are the soldiers at the border responsible to ensure that nothing dangerous slips through unnoticed, they are also in constant danger - they know they are very juicy targets for a Jihadist shooter. They have to stay very vigilant, very awere. They search cars, they allow dogs to try and smell any hidden gunpowder, they use metal detectors and when anything looks suspicious they are allowed to require a Palestinian to do all sorts of humiliating actions like stand facing a wall surrounded by armed soldiers while they are being searched. It's veyr unpleasent to watch and I'm sure it feels bad to go through, but you MUST see that this opression is only a more serious form of the one I go through as I want to enter a train station.
yeah, funny how security got WAY tighter after the second intifada, during which 1000 Israeli citizens were killed and 6000 injured. One can wonder why security is so tight. The security fence? didn't exist before that. MANY of the roadblocks and the most humiliating procedures taken in them? a direct result of that. It's NOT a game, it's war.
I now what "oppression" i "suffer" is nothing compared to that of Palestinians, but I beg you to understand it's only more extreme measures taken in more extreme circumstances.
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@BigNorseWolf,
"They are not going to become an existential threat. You took on 6? entire countries worth of armies in 67. Since then you've been getting better toys and their toys have been rusting away in the desert."
Stop dancing around that issue! Hamas having access to a more advanced army = more, maybe even MUCH more, Israeli killed, considering that they are explicitly saying, "we want Israel destroyed, no long term solution is possible". Yeah, sure, Israel took down 6 countries at once - it also suffered thousands of casualties and immense damage. As an offhanded example, large parts of Israel are still very dangerous because the Syrian army laid landmines in it while retreating in the 1973 war - every now and then, someone gets killed by stepping on a mine the army missed, and there are large fields closed by a fence because they are full of landmines nobody is willing to risk their life by lifting.
Fighting an army is ALWAYS dangerous, never matter how many times you won in the past. Also, I'm pretty sure an actual army will force Israel into the kind of fighting where more Palestinians get killed too, not only more Jews. You can't seriously suggest a militaristic country ruled by Hamas is a good idea.
Also I checked - Hamas is recognized as a terrorist group by the U.S the European Union- from wikipedia,
"Hamas is officially declared as a terrorist organization by the United States and the European Union..."
Now I don't know just how far your political education goes but international experts seem to say that Hamas are terrorists, and they are proffesionals who actulay studied the case closely, giving their full time to the issue. I'd wager on them being right, if I had to.