Do multiple castings of a ongoing spell increase the save DC?


Rules Questions


Scenario:

Round 1: A druid with 18 Wisdom casts Entangle on an area. Reflex save of 15 (10 + spell level 1 + 4 WIS) negates entanglement.

Round 2: The druid casts a second Entangle targeted so that portions of the two areas overlap.

The save DC outside the areas of overlap is obviously 15. But does it increase within the area of the area of overlap?


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

No, you've got two different instances of the spell, not one more powerful instance.

What it would do is require anyone within the area of overlap to make two Reflex saves for each spell, which would slightly increase the chances of them failing.


That makes sense, thanks.

I might house-rule it as single saving throw with a +2 on the DC, just to keep things speedy. Gameplay slows down a little bit for every extra die roll.


I would not evey make you save twice. If cast bull STR i get +4 STR not +8.


you're trying to use the rules for poison, which work this way for multiple doses.
but magic, or anything else doens't work this way.
PLAUSIBLY you could claim that magical poisons (cloudkill, etc) would work this way even though they don't otherwise use the rules for poison, they still qualify as poison for this purpose... that was kind of an area where the 'borders' between rules sub-systems wasn't 'cleared up', namely effects that are identified as poison (and thus should qualify for poison-specific saving throw bonuses, e.g. of dwarves) but otherwise aren't using the poison-specific rules (e.g. # of cures to save, etc). hit FAQ for that issue if you want, but for the general issue, NO, spells in general don't increase in DC like that, doing so would be 100% house-rule territory.


I did say it would be a house rule if I decide to do it that way. The mechanical effect is much the same in this case.

Making 2 saves against 2 distinct entangle spells means you're slightly more likely to fail a save.

Increasing the DC by 2 means you're slightly more likely to fail the save, but you only have to roll once.

The reason I ask is that I have a very large battle planned involving 72 combatants who will be fighting in an area of five contiguous heightened Entangle effects.

19 of the combatants will have the Mystic Stride feat, allowing them to move freely. I don't have to worry about them.

4 of the others are PCs -- or rather, a PC plus her animal companion, her cohort, and the cohort's familiar. The player will of course be doing their saves.

The other 49 will be showing up in waves of 7. But even so, I really don't want to have to roll 35 reflex saves/strength checks every single round. It would rapidly drive me mad.


Tinalles wrote:
The other 49 will be showing up in waves of 7. But even so, I really don't want to have to roll 35 reflex saves/strength checks every single round. It would rapidly drive me mad.

Then don't put in all of those entangle spells. You overlap spells, you have to make multiple saves. You don't want to make multiple saves, don't overlap spells.


Or I could put them in because it's tactically vital if my PC is to have any hope of surviving, and house rule it to keep my sanity. :-Þ


Rather than make a new rule just for one battle I would just decide who failed and who did not, or not use that spell.


Tinalles wrote:
Or I could put them in because it's tactically vital if my PC is to have any hope of surviving, and house rule it to keep my sanity. :-Þ

Use a "dice computer table" or throw the dice before. One of my players do that and it fastens the game.


The overlapping areas would not incur additional saves - the wavy/grabby plants in the area don't get to snatch at passersby extra times just because there is multiple spells going on.

I like the idea of adding to the DC (have thought of doing that for simultaneous cast spells), but nothing in the rules for it of course.


Each spell requires a save by the rules.

By the rules the casting of certain spells requires a save. There is no rules exception saying that if the spells take up the same space that the second casting can be ignored.


Defraeter wrote:
Tinalles wrote:
Or I could put them in because it's tactically vital if my PC is to have any hope of surviving, and house rule it to keep my sanity. :-Þ
Use a "dice computer table" or throw the dice before. One of my players do that and it fastens the game.

I would say at this scale it's perfectly ok to preroll the saves for your NPCs.

Make a table (with excel probably) for all the NPCs and roll 5 or 10 times. You could even use the excel random function if you like. Then print it out and have it ready. Maybe mark those saves that fail or those that pass so you see it at one glance?
Then for the game place another piece of paper on top of it, hiding the combat rounds not used yet, so you don't accidently see the results of next round and get influenced by it.


I like that idea, Quatar. I think I'll do that. Thanks!


Tom S 820 wrote:

I would not evey make you save twice. If cast bull STR i get +4 STR not +8.

There are also clear rules in play about how bonuses stack, so Bull Strength would fall under those rulings; never seen anything about what we're talking about now, but yeah, seems like it would have to save vs both.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 8

if there were 5 feet of separation from each AoE, a creature moving between both of them would be required to make a save in each AoE... there is no difference between that scenario and a scenario where both effects share an overlapping border. There is no zone of extra-entangly area where the effects overlap, just another save.

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