Goblin Squad Member
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My perspective is that, since PFO is open-ended, it doesn't matter. The reason you need respecs in WoW is because you only have a fairly small number of points to spend in your talent trees. With PFO, you never run out of points, so when you want to try something new you just start developing along those new lines.
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Goblin Squad Member
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To back up Nihimon with a similar perspective, in PFO you'll never need to "unspend" points in order to go down a new path. If you're interested in a different path of advancement, will not give up the skills you've already acquired, you'll just continually add to your knowledge base.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As mentioned, skills we all doubt will ever be implimented. Stats from the sounds of it goblinworks is still juggling ideas around, but quite possibly leaning towards some form of point buy. It's worth noting that stats themselves do nothing except speed up training time. A 10 str fighter with merit badges A, B, C and D will hit no less hard than a 18 str fighter with merit badges A, B, C and D, though he will probably get those badges in far less time.
Judging by Ryan's posts, he does not intend for their to be a respec at the start, and possibly not for years down the road, and even then they will likely have a time between respecs that is measured in years to keep the decision of stats as actually a meaningful decision.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My perspective is that, since PFO is open-ended, it doesn't matter. The reason you need respecs in WoW is because you only have a fairly small number of points to spend in your talent trees. With PFO, you never run out of points, so when you want to try something new you just start developing along those new lines.
+1
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Goblin Squad Member
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There was a big problem in EVE. There were skills that you trained to speed up the rate that you trained skills. Training all of them through their various permutations to max level took about 6 months. You could reduce that if you had high attributes in the areas that affected the time it took to train those skills.
So there were a LOT of bizarrely built PCs in EVE. The respec system cleared that up after the learning skills were finally removed.
The other problem in EVE was the in intuitive mapping between attributes, skills, Nd the stuff you would want to do in the game. So people faced a lot of situations where the choices they made as new players were really sub-optimal through ignorance.
Respecting alleviated that problem too.
Hopefully we will avoid the latter, and we'll never do the former.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ok Ryan I can deffinitly see how that works but what about multi-class characters such as fighter/monk or wizard/cleric will they reach a point that will not allow them to max out those seperate skills/class because they are taking on to many choices at once or will it just take longer to complet those and eventually master both?
Well at least per description of attributes, the only thing they effect is the speed of training skills, and the saves. I don't believe I have heard anything along the lines of any attributes possibly being pre-reqs etc... so per current data, there is absolutely nothing preventing one from maxing out all 11 roles, beyond the ones that go against their attributes will take longer (well that and that maxing out the role you are optimized for takes 2.5 years, so maxing out everything including ones you aren't optimized for attribute wise... will probably take 30-50 years.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It will be interesting to see how the skill system works, particularly in regard to multi-classed characters. In PnP if you want to be a multi-classed character, then how long (i.e. how much XP) it takes to ‘train’ as a new class is directly based on the total character level of the PC. For instance if you have a 3rd level Fighter and you want to gain a level as a rogue, then you need 3000 xp to go from a 3rd level character to a 4th level character.
It hasn’t been specifically touched on yet, but it sounds like that time to train skills will be independent from other skills a PC has. Therefore whether you’re ‘3rd level’ or 20th it would take the same amount of time to acquire the relevant skills to gain the abilities of another class.
Something else that could impact of the time it takes to acquire a new class level, is if the new class has any skills in common with the current class. Take for example the case of a Ranger. It may share some common required skills with the rogue class. If this is the case then it could act as a short-cut to gaining a new class level.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I take it then that the time to train skills to earn the merit badges and abilities of a new class 'level' is the same regardless whether a 20th 'level' equavalent character trains in the skill or a 5th level equalvalent trains in them.
I.e it will take the same time for a 20 level fighter to train to become a 1st level rogue, as it would take a 5th level fighter. I know that level is the wrong word. However, I'm sure you understand what I mean.
Perhaps we need a replacement term that fits PFO system.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The skill "Backstabbing 101" will not take more or less time to train based on your other skills; it may take more or less time based on your own dexterity and/or intelligence.
That is my understanding as well.
I’m certainly not against it, if that is how the system would work in practice. I do wonder how this will affect classes that traditionally have a cross-over of skills.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There are no class levels in Pathfinder Online. Because there are no classes.
Ryan, just curious, but why spend so much effort trying to change this terminology?
As I understand it, I'll be able to play a Wizard. In most other games, including PFRPG, that's a Class. Wouldn't it be simpler to say that PFO will have "Unlimited Multi-Classing", or something like that?
I'm not trying to nag or doubt you, I'm just hoping you might give us a paragraph or two on why the change in terminology is important.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In UO and contemporary games there were no classes, only a vast amount of skills that you could train to build the character that you liked.
Problem was that the skills were also vastly different in terms of usability and it was generally hard to know which skill would benefit you most.
Now there are two solutions to this problem:
1. Make skills clearer and more equal in power and usability
2. Limit the number of skills drastically, group them and let them advance automatically - call this construct a "class".
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CEO, Goblinworks
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@Valkenr - if we find that some character abilities are a problem from a balance perspective we'll be very open to fixing that.
But that's different than a respec, where people assume you get to rebuild the character from scratch, or how it's used in EVE, which meant re-balancing your ability scores. I don't think (I sincerely hope) that we'll have to do that kind of a major change.