RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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Can a character with the shield slam feat make an attack of opportunity against an enemy charging past him with his shield and, using the free bull rush granted by shield slam, effectively prevent the enemy from being able to "charge in a straight line" and foil the charge? If so, what happens to any remaining actions the enemy has after the charge is foiled? Can he opt to simply complete his movement? Does he get his standard action "refunded" since the charge could not complete? Does he end his turn in whatever square the bull rush left him in?
There's not enough RAW on interrupted charges.
Here's how I do it. The charging character determines that he has a straight line to his target by visual inspection. Thus, there may be an invisible impediment to his charge that he doesn't know about.
Let's say there appears to be a valid charge path. The charger begins his charge. As he enters each new square along his path, he re-evaluates his charge path. As long as he chooses to enter the next square along the shortest straight path to his target based on his current observation, he's good.
So if something causes him to involuntarily be shifted from his path, he can still continue moving along the most direct straight line to the target. The DM *might* (as a house rule) allow him to complete the "charge" but give no benefit because his momentum was interrupted.
See also this thread.
There's not enough RAW on interrupted charges.
This is true, but I think I would rule it differently. The charge rules state that anything hindering your path makes charge impossible. As soon as the charge is interrupted by the shield slam, it has clearly been hindered. As RAW doesn't quite cover this, I am going to go with realism. The charger put everything into a run and was violently knocked off his intended path. I say the turn is over here. That may seem harsh, but I think that would be a reasonable response to being knocked back while moving full speed. Also, I don't think this would be a regular enough occurrence to be an unbalanced ruling. Remember, the charger could have charged the player with the shield as he clearly is closer but chose instead to run past him and provoke an attack of opportunity.
If you need game precedence, think of a wizard who is interrupted while casting a full round spell. He did not choose to abort this action and thus retain his move. He was violently interrupted during a span of 6 seconds. That is the nature of a lost action. I don't see why charge would be any different. Admittedly, this is just my two copper on the matter.
The wizard gets a concentration check to complete the casting anyway, despite being damaged. What does the charger get ?
The wizard gets a concentration check to complete the casting anyway, despite being damaged. What does the charger get ?
A fair question, but the answer is nothing. Casting is not charging. I used it as a simple example of precedence for losing an action. To be interrupted, the wizard needs to be damaged and fail the concentration check. For the charge to be "interrupted," the charger just needs to have his path obstructed or hindered in any way. Only one thing needs to happen to make a charge illegal. Two things have to happen for the spell to fail. In my experience, I have seen far more casters lose spells to damage than warriors lose charges to obstructions.
However, I kind of like the idea of giving the charger some save or check like a wizard's concentration to salvage his turn or remaining move. I wouldn't let him continue the charge, but I would allow him to complete his double move or take a standard if he had not already moved more than his speed. This might be a fun house rule, but it is clearly not RAW. Anyway, still just my two copper.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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The reason I ask is because I have a Shield Slam user who likes to "screen" for his wizard and archer companions by interposing himself between enemies and them. Combined with enlarge person, he's able to effectively cut off a lot of charge lanes. It's the same principle as using a reach weapon and tripping, but I like the higher AC of the shield-based build. I just wondered if it was able to effectively prevent charges as well as a trip build.
Fate, after the first bad-guy gets his charge spoiled, the others are going to twig onto what he's doing (unless they're mindless undead, for example). Sometimes move-moving is better than charging.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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Fate, after the first bad-guy gets his charge spoiled, the others are going to twig onto what he's doing (unless they're mindless undead, for example). Sometimes move-moving is better than charging.
Yeah, but even still, they've got to use a lot of movement to circumvent my threatened area (since I'm usually 3-4 squares in front of my allies). Then, if they do get into melee with my squishy friends, on my turn, I shield slam them away, my allies are no longer threatened, so they take their movement to be on the other side of me again.
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
I don't think the RAW of Charge actually allows this.
[you] move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent
... nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles).
You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent.
Difficult Terrain or Obstacles are changing the cost to move thru a square, which isn't happening here.
Being Bullrushed isn't hindering your movement, it's giving you FREE (unwanted) movement.Charge doesn't actually have a requirement that you can move only in a straight line...
Moving directly towards the closest valid square usually RESULTS in that,
but if the target Readies an Action to Move (during your Charge), you should still be able to continue the Charge because you can still move directly towards them, so while continuing the Charge you are always following the rule even if your actual path is curving. Being Bullrushed during a Charge is basically the same thing.
That's RAW, I don't know RAI. Charge is written kind of strangely, some lines being written as conditions that must apply as you are doing the action, some as 'pre action checks' or with reference to 'starting position' (e.g. ally squares blocking a Charge)... Which may not technically apply (to prevent the Charge) if they come into play AFTER the Charge is initiated.
That said, I can see why it makes sense to read that 'straight line' out of Charge, and I would definitely consider playing it that way... But given that doing so is itself a stretch of the actual RAW, I would likewise be accomodating of other aspects of RAW, and say that if you haven't yet moved more than your Move Speed, that the Charge Full Action becoming 'illegal' means the Full Action 'collapses', and you would have a Standard Action remaining unless you've done anything else besides Move (e.g. used the Hurling Charge Rage Power to make a Charging Ranged Attack). During the period where things were happening in the direction of you completing the Charge, you would suffer from the AC penalty (so, applicable to your CMD when being Bullrushed)... But once we look inside Schroedinger's box (and see the Charge is no longer happening) it doesn't make sense to apply anything from Charge anymore (penalty or benefit) so the AC penalty would no longer apply. That's all if I didn't want to apply to strict RAW of Charge, which DOESN'T directly state any straight-line requirement.
A readied Bull Rush triggered by an attack on the Charge target (i.e. just as the Charge attack is being initiated) WOULD negate the Charge since the Charge attack has already started, you can't move AFTER making the Charge attack, so if you are Bullrushed to where you no longer threaten the target, the Charge is basically done and the attack wasted. If you still threaten them (with the same weapon making the attack), I guess the attack could go thru, but given that you must attack from the nearest square possible, I don't imagine that would happen very often.
If somebody is moving towards you with a 'regular' Move Action (and planning on attacking you with a standard Attack Action or Cleave, etc), a Readied Action Bull Rush that triggers when the attack is initiated would work similar to above: the attack is basically negated IF you no longer threaten the target. Alternatively, the Bull Rush could even go off BEFORE any attack is attempted, during movement, and the attacker could end up being unable to attack the target because they have no more movement remaining IN THEIR CURRENT ACTION (move action). If they still have a remaining distance within their move speed, and haven't yet begun a different action, they can continue finishing that action, i.e. using that movement, and possibly get back in range to attack the target (i.e. begin a new standard action, attacking them). Otherwise, they would be faced with using their Standard Action to Move adjacent to their target (and not have any actions remaining to actually attack them), or try to think of something to do from their current position (possibly make a throwing attack, although they can't draw a weapon for free as if 'during movement' because they aren't moving at that movement, so either throw the melee weapon with penalties or use quickdraw, or some other non-attack option).
See also this thread about the target of a charge readying an action, some of it may apply.
i saw your post, and while interesting, i don't think it actually holds up...
i think the game depends on the idea of beginning an action vs. completing it.
for one, full attacks with iteratives. there is a specific rule/exception for allowing to 'decide' between a single attack and a full attack (or to allow beginning a full attack and switch back to a single attack, freeing your move action), but clearly we can understand the idea that you have begun your full attack action when you have made the first attack (with -2 penalty if you want to 2WF), even though you haven't made any of the other component attacks of the full attack. somebody can have some defensive ability that kicks in when they are full attacked: that applies to the very first attack of a full attack, before the full attack has been completed.
secondly, AoOs from movement trigger on leaving a square. but if the enemy doens't threaten the square you are entering, the AoO MUST happen while you are still in the original square (this is how it works, regardless if they threaten the destination square). but if you are in the original square to be attacked by them, you haven't yet actually left the square, even though 'leaving the square' is the supposed trigger for the AoO. the only way i can make sense of that is by using the idea of 'beginning an action', namely beginning the action of leaving the square counts as the beginning of the AoO provoking action (and thus provokes) even though you haven't actually accomplished anything (moving), you have merely begun the action.
I would view initiating the attack component of a Charge in a similar manner... you can't make another attack, because you have already made one (even if it couldn't complete effectively).
It really would be nice to get some FAQ/Errata attention on this, regardless.
Charge doesn't actually have a requirement that you can move only in a straight line...
Moving directly towards the closest valid square usually RESULTS in that,
Quandry, it may not say the words "straight line," but I would have to argue that this is the clear definition of "directly towards the target." The reading of the charge entry from the srd is as follows:
If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge.
If a curved line as you suggested was legal, the entry above would make almost any charge illegal as some curved line from the target to charger would be blocked by something. Now before some one says that this means the entry is too vague, I will point out that the default definition of "line" is a straight line. At every other point I could find in the Pathfinder book where "line" is not preceded by a descriptor, they mean a straight one. If you do not believe me, check flanking, cover, concealment, or line of sight.
To me, the real dispute here comes not in whether it is straight or not, but in deciding if a bull rush hinders your movement. I would say it does. If we look at the overall movement of the charger after a bull rush, he has moved in a zig-zag that he never would have been able to use for a charge. Even if we argue that a bull rush is not hindering, every path I tried on a grid resulted in the charger having to use an extra square of movement to reach a target on the other side of the defender. This should at least qualify as slowing him down as mentioned in the quoted section above. I don't really think we have even gone off RAW at this point.
If we are off RAW as you suggested, I am forced to go with realism. The charge represents a reckless action that boosts your attack and movement in exchange for weakening your defense. To have such an action interrupted by being forced backwards mid-run, I cannot imagine any warrior instantly recovering from that. A turn represents six seconds. Somewhere during those few seconds, your momentum was stolen from you and you were forced off path. I think our charger is done for his remaining seconds this round.
Either way, I think the OP's slammer has come up with a clever method of protecting his wizard. As stated, a tripping character could accomplish the same thing for less feats, and the enemy would now be prone as well. If this is the path he wishes to take, I say good on him. That is my two copper.
I think that, since the rules of charging will prevent them from making a turn, they have to continue going in the same "compass direction" for lack of a better term, but if doing so will allow them to still reach melee with the target, they can still charge. If you can bull rush them far enough off course to make it impossible to reach the taret to melee attack with the charge, then you ruin it.
Just my opinion.