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First, bound creatures are *called*, not *summoned*, so Augmented Summoning does *not* work with them.
In principle, you could force an outsider into service sans payment, though it would get probably +6 to it's opposed charisma roll. Beings would indeed only serve until the end of a scenario, regardless, and any spell effects they may have conferred upon you (say, a Succubus' profane ability bonus, or any wishes a bound Efreet may have cast) would end, too, per PFS rules. Beyond that, there are no special PFS restrictions - the spell is the spell.
That said, there are practical considerations.
My now-12 sorcerer - who, with a +14 opposed charisma check AND reliable ability to reduce the called outsider's check with Bestow Curse, enervation and similar spells - considered taking the spell: I mean, she can pretty much bind even pretty strong (Glabrezu, movanic deva) outsiders with impunity, even without paying them. I had visions of maybe having a glabrezu bodyguard (veiled as a wizened servant following me around), a couple of Nessian warhounds, and maybe a garuda or erinyes as an aerial scout/support. Nice! The problem is, I *know* GMs will be as uncooperative as possible; likely, they will simply ignore the (admittedly broken) capabilities of the spell, and find ways to make it as inconvenient as possible.
It's not the only spell that has this effect (I've had GMs basically ignore the effects of save-or-die type spells, like my DC 29 dominate person or my DC 27 suffocation because "it's not fun for the table"), and I've seen GMs ask witches not to use the slumber hex.
So: are there any special restrictions beyond the spell ending at the close of a scenario? No. Are there realities which may make the spell un-fun? Definitely.
I think if I were playing solely with a home PFS group, with a judge who understood and appreciated the spell, it would be fine; in gameday/con PFS, where you will have a variety of judges? Maybe not.
(I will add that, as a spell, it does require good "gaming citizenship" to use; a level 12 sorcerer with Planar Ally could, 12 days after hitting level 12, be perpetually accompanied by 48 12HD outsiders - an army of huge elementals, packs of Nessian warhounds, a squadron of garudas, or a mix of everything... or just call four Efreet daily for 12 wishes to "buff up" the party. Nasty! And, actually, deserving of GM scorn, at least within the context of a four hour PFS scenario window. Play responsibly!)
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Any GM who refuses to let a player use a legal spell at a table, simply because it is "unfun" is incorrect.
Restricting the number of summoned creatures... fine. Because that's a game flow issue.
Nerfing rules, changing the way spells work, ignoring rules, or flat out not allowing certain spells and/or abilities, because it essentially is a combat-ending effect, is not fine.
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Being told I'm not allowed to use a spell I'm allowed to use is more not fun for the table.
be perpetually accompanied by 48 12HD outsiders - an army of huge elementals, packs of Nessian warhounds, a squadron of garudas, or a mix of everything...
I'm thinking the probability of something like this becoming successful is really really small, and even if it was, think of all those outsiders who, once their assigned task is over, will likely come to kill the mage who gave it to them.
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Are there any other restrictions the PFS rules place on Planar Binding?
No restrictions I'm aware of, other than no effects generated by the called outsider extend past the scenario it was called into.
Of course, such spells are always risky, given the fickle and often vengeful nature of the types of creatures you're likely to call.
Some GMs may not like the spell because it puts extra critters on the map, while others will love it because it's an extra bad guy waiting to happen.
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It's not the only spell that has this effect (I've had GMs basically ignore the effects of save-or-die type spells, like my DC 29 dominate person or my DC 27 suffocation because "it's not fun for the table"), and I've seen GMs ask witches not to use the slumber hex.
Ugh. Now that's the kind of behavior I'd hope you would report to campaign staff and/or area VOs. Especially Dominate Person, given you're spending a full round to cast it. There's plenty of chance for foes who recognize spell casting to try and intervene there; if they fail, they fail. Works the same way of a BBEG did it to the party.
I will add that, as a spell, it does require good "gaming citizenship" to use
And that's my only concern, really. As a GM I don't want to stop the narrative for 12 days so a PC can raise an army or try to adapt a scenario to cope with that kind of force. If they want to stop for a day/a few hours and raise up a useful outsider or two; why not? Sure. Make some checks, role play as appropriate and move on. But if they legitimately tell me they're coming binding 48HD of outsiders pre-scenario, I'm going to tell them no.
Also...
I assume that I can't keep binding the same creature (assuming I know it's name), and paying it with useful combat gear that it will still have the next time I bind it.
Correct. Unless you had a Chronicle boon giving you a given outsider's true name, it wouldn't be possible to conjure up the same one every time AFAIK. Plus, as a GM, I'd start giving the outsider Sense Motive checks to realize your "payment" is really just an "investment" in continuing to demand services of it, making items less valuable to them. ;)
Really, if you want a powerful outsider that you can gear up and call regularly, Summoner is a better way to go.
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Being told I'm not allowed to use a spell I'm allowed to use is more not fun for the table.
be perpetually accompanied by 48 12HD outsiders - an army of huge elementals, packs of Nessian warhounds, a squadron of garudas, or a mix of everything...I'm thinking the probability of something like this becoming successful is really really small, and even if it was, think of all those outsiders who, once their assigned task is over, will likely come to kill the mage who gave it to them.
Well, see, the beauty of it is that only four bindings "expire" in any given day, and then you have 44 more to take care of any... complications. :)
Obviously, one would never do this... but one *could*, in principle!
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Being told I'm not allowed to use a spell I'm allowed to use is more not fun for the table.
be perpetually accompanied by 48 12HD outsiders - an army of huge elementals, packs of Nessian warhounds, a squadron of garudas, or a mix of everything...I'm thinking the probability of something like this becoming successful is really really small, and even if it was, think of all those outsiders who, once their assigned task is over, will likely come to kill the mage who gave it to them.
I don’t see how it’s possible to have that many outsiders around.
Technically? Yes, all the outsiders could fail their save, their spell resistance could fail, you could have the magic circle with the calling pattern up, you could have other spells to use to help, the charisma check could then fail for the outsider. But if you give them a task that can’t be completed by them alone (serve in my army of powerful outsiders would qualify for that in my opinion), then the spell only lasts 1 day per level, and it gets new saves, new SR checks, and new charisma checks every day.
At some point, you are going to have one or two get free, and then instead of attacking you immediately, set about trying to free the others, then you will have 48, 12 HD outsiders pissed at you and attack you.
Not to mention, the spell would end at the end of a scenario, and you’d have to cast it again at the beginning of the next scenario.
So no way in heck do you get 48 in PFS.
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where is it discussed what payment should be? I'm not finding that in the spell's description.
It's not discussed - this is why the spell could be complicated: GM interpretation gets involved.
The way it works is that you call the creature, and if it's trapped (which is very likely, since the DC is pretty favorable to the caller), you get to demand bound service once per day: this is simply an opposed charisma check.
The GM (see? he's involved! uh oh!) decides on a modifier to the outsider's charisma check which could be anywhere from +0 to +6 (I think - this is from memory). If one offers things to the outsider (like gems to eat, or children to slay, or a position of the King's Planar Advisory Board, or whatever, depending on the being involved), the modifier would presumably tend to the +0 side; if one simply says "It is your fate to serve me as my bound servant! You get NOTHING!" then it would trend, one assumes, toward +6.
So, lacking guidelines, a PFS GM (well, any GM) could say "the being demands 20,000gp, or else it's a +6", which could make things tough for the caller. Spells like this, which are subject to GM decisions, will always be problematic for any organized play campaign (where there are, let's face it, judges who only emerge from the cracks in the floor to get free tickets to cons and a free room to crash in).
Consider: Can an outsider Bluff the caster to make him *think* the called is bound, so that he might be released and attack the caster? Or does the caster *know* the result through some sense? The spell really doesn't go into this: fertile ground for GM mischief!
It's just really, really open ended which is why it's *so* important to ask "who will actually be judging me at high levels?" My sorcerer, as I mentioned, considered it at 12 - but I don't want my sole 6th-level spell rendered unusable. Ironic, in a way, because my DC 30 "Mass Suggestion" I'll take instead likely promises greater GM frustration ;)
I'll probably take Planar Binding at 13, if I can ever find a retirement group... it *can* be an awfully fun and useful (duh) spell.
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Being told I'm not allowed to use a spell I'm allowed to use is more not fun for the table.
be perpetually accompanied by 48 12HD outsiders - an army of huge elementals, packs of Nessian warhounds, a squadron of garudas, or a mix of everything...I'm thinking the probability of something like this becoming successful is really really small, and even if it was, think of all those outsiders who, once their assigned task is over, will likely come to kill the mage who gave it to them.I don’t see how it’s possible to have that many outsiders around.
Technically? Yes, all the outsiders could fail their save, their spell resistance could fail, you could have the magic circle with the calling pattern up, you could have other spells to use to help, the charisma check could then fail for the outsider. But if you give them a task that can’t be completed by them alone (serve in my army of powerful outsiders would qualify for that in my opinion), then the spell only lasts 1 day per level, and it gets new saves, new SR checks, and new charisma checks every day.
At some point, you are going to have one or two get free, and then instead of attacking you immediately, set about trying to free the others, then you will have 48, 12 HD outsiders pissed at you and attack you.
Not to mention, the spell would end at the end of a scenario, and you’d have to cast it again at the beginning of the next scenario.
So no way in heck do you get 48 in PFS.
Good points!
... I have a Rod of Persistent Spell. Persistent Planar Binding!... just 3 per day, so my army is 36. Hehe! ;)
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where is it discussed what payment should be? I'm not finding that in the spell's description.It's not discussed - this is why the spell could be complicated: GM interpretation gets involved.
The way it works is that you call the creature, and if it's trapped (which is very likely, since the DC is pretty favorable to the caller), you get to demand bound service once per day: this is simply an opposed charisma check.
The GM (see? he's involved! uh oh!) decides on a modifier to the outsider's charisma check which could be anywhere from +0 to +6 (I think - this is from memory). If one offers things to the outsider (like gems to eat, or children to slay, or a position of the King's Planar Advisory Board, or whatever, depending on the being involved), the modifier would presumably tend to the +0 side; if one simply says "It is your fate to serve me as my bound servant! You get NOTHING!" then it would trend, one assumes, toward +6.
So, lacking guidelines, a PFS GM (well, any GM) could say "the being demands 20,000gp, or else it's a +6", which could make things tough for the caller. Spells like this, which are subject to GM decisions, will always be problematic for any organized play campaign (where there are, let's face it, judges who only emerge from the cracks in the floor to get free tickets to cons and a free room to crash in).
Consider: Can an outsider Bluff the caster to make him *think* the called is bound, so that he might be released and attack the caster? Or does the caster *know* the result through some sense? The spell really doesn't go into this: fertile ground for GM mischief!
It's just really, really open ended which is why it's *so* important to ask "who will actually be judging me at high levels?" My sorcerer, as I mentioned, considered it at 12 - but I don't want my sole 6th-level spell rendered unusable. Ironic, in a way, because my DC 30 "Mass Suggestion" I'll take instead likely promises greater GM frustration ;)
I'll probably take Planar...
He was responding to the post right before that that I edited...no need for snark about it.
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Ah, I fell for the confusion (I never saw the Planar Ally post).
Still, no snark intended (sorry if it read as such). It IS a tricky spell to adjudicate, and both a good player AND a clever GM could have loads of fun with it (Planar Ally/Binding are probably the two spells which actually lead to role-playing opportunities). My concern/issue is with GMs who will nerf the spell beyond the scope of PFS guidelines to discourage its use.
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Being told I'm not allowed to use a spell I'm allowed to use is more not fun for the table.
be perpetually accompanied by 48 12HD outsiders - an army of huge elementals, packs of Nessian warhounds, a squadron of garudas, or a mix of everything...I'm thinking the probability of something like this becoming successful is really really small, and even if it was, think of all those outsiders who, once their assigned task is over, will likely come to kill the mage who gave it to them.Well, see, the beauty of it is that only four bindings "expire" in any given day, and then you have 44 more to take care of any... complications. :)
Obviously, one would never do this... but one *could*, in principle!
I don’t see how you only lose 4 of your 48 bindings a day. In PFS, you’d lose them all at the end of a session.
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The best way to do this is to talk with your GM before session and tell him a few outsiders which you might want to summon.
If you out of nowhere come up with this during session, entire game might get bogged down since chating with called outsider might be slow and slippery terrain. Alot of GMs including myself might have no clue as to what kind of creature that player calls upon acts like and even what would it demand as a payment. In either case, GMs call how the outsider acts and what it demands should be respected.
Also, offering sacrifices is evil act most likely, so only neutral and good outsiders would be considered. Maybe even Imp.
I would recommend to bind elementals since those are easier to RP and simpler to use.
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Totally agree on discussing it with the GM beforehand - of course, this isn't necessarily feasible at, say, a convention (but then, 12+ characters don't get a lot of convention play).
Probably it would be wise to impose a limit on critters on the table (the spell itself should probably limit the number controllable to a number equal to cha modifier, or maybe something level based.) I can see a limit of one "open ended" (ie. day per level) called outsider in play at a time, akin to an animal companion or the like.
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Sacrificing people would definitly be an evil act, but animal sacrifice shouldn't tick my alignment down to evil.
Also, offering sacrifices is evil act most likely, so only neutral and good outsiders would be considered. Maybe even Imp.
I dunno. Sacrificing the Druid's AC, Paladin's Mount or Wizard/Witch's familiar wouldn't help your alignment, IMO.
"Mr. Samurai, we need to use your horse for something. May we use him?"
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Sacrificing people would definitly be an evil act, but animal sacrifice shouldn't tick my alignment down to evil.
Also, offering sacrifices is evil act most likely, so only neutral and good outsiders would be considered. Maybe even Imp.
Uh, if you conjure up a demon, devil, or similarly evil outsider I can assure you offering up the town's favorite donkey or the nearest house cat isn't going to cut it.
They want souls. They want depravity. They want blood.
There are some entries in some of the Demon/Devil splat books that give some good sacrifice ideas, but most of them are along those lines.
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Sacrificing people would definitly be an evil act, but animal sacrifice shouldn't tick my alignment down to evil.
Also, offering sacrifices is evil act most likely, so only neutral and good outsiders would be considered. Maybe even Imp.
Uh, if you conjure up a demon, devil, or similarly evil outsider I can assure you offering up the town's favorite donkey or the nearest house cat isn't going to cut it.
They want souls. They want depravity. They want blood.
There are some entries in some of the Demon/Devil splat books that give some good sacrifice ideas, but most of them are along those lines.
And unfortunately, none of them are legal for PFS. Neither are the 'Summoning Outsiders' section from Ultimate Magic, which includes True Name research. So you're stuck with only the Planar Binding Text, which makes it a fair bit more difficult.
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At least one of the examples in the books you mention is an animal sacrifice. And there's an awful lot of blood in a piggy. While I doubt a Pit Fiend will care unless I'm sacrificing paladins, Imps and Bearded Devils shouldn't be quite as picky.
You're correct that a number of Devils will settle for an animal sacrifice per said sources for a bonus.
But none of those are legal in PFS, meaning I roll with the RAW for Planar Binding which make no specifics as to sacrifices (or bonuses for them at all).
But again, I have no beef with this spell being used in play as long as it's done with courtesy and some reason (I'm not going to allow the PC to call forth an army of outsiders for the scenario; the role play complications alone are a nightmare).
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the fact that the society is naturally good aligned (since NO evil character can join it...
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA no.
No evil characters are allowed in organized play, because it leads to tension when jerks use "my character is evil" as an excuse to be jerks, and the "no PVP" rule becomes harder to justify.
As you point out, NPC Pathfinders can be--and are--quite evil.
If the society as a whole has an alignment, it is neutral ... At best.
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GMs can always add a circumstance bonus or penalty to anything the players are doing per Core. If the only thing you are using is a Charisma check to try and get a powerful outsider's help, then that should be difficult. As a GM, if you called a good outsider during a demon fight I may even give you a bonus. Calling the same outsider to find some esoteric lore that doesn't benefit the outsider's deity would be a different story.
The newest Demon/Worldwound books take an in depth look at what a player needs to do in order to appease the outsider when they call a particular type of demon. I'm sure future Angel/Azata/Archon books will have something similar. I think those are what is meant to be the offering to get the 0 to +6 bonus on a Charisma check.
Building a PFS character that only starts coming into its own at 10th level, with such a 'difficult spell' may not be the best choice for Pathfinder Society.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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be perpetually accompanied by 48 12HD outsiders - an army of huge elementals, packs of Nessian warhounds, a squadron of garudas, or a mix of everything...
...think of all those outsiders who, once their assigned task is over, will likely come to kill the mage who gave it to them.
That would be terrific in a home campaign. You bet!
But the PFS GM isn't allowed to write encounters that happen after the scenario is over. None of those consequences ever take effect.
(Now maybe the GM might want to write a note to successive GMs on the player's Chronicle sheet: "the PC has offended the following outsiders..." By the way, Dust Raven, how many of your GMs have looked through your character's Chronicles, looking for notes from previous GMs?