The situation:
A swarm of rats occupies the same space as PC1. Can PC2 make an attack against the rats without hurting PC1?
I can't find anything in the rules that suggests PC1 would take damage when the rats are attacked, but the GM insisted that is what would happen. I've checked through both the swarm rules and the general combat rules and found nothing to that effect--am I missing something, or is this basically an on-the-fly house rule?
As a secondary question, assuming that attacking the rats does not harm PC1, could an Alchemist with Precise Bombs throw a bomb directly at the rats and then exclude the space the rats and PC1 occupy from the splash damage to keep PC1 safe?
Again, I'm pretty sure this is fine, and I felt pretty clever for coming up with it, but the idea was shot down. Because the rats were apparently on PC1, splash damage was irrelevant as PC1 would take direct hit damage.
It ultimately didn't matter too much, as I just delayed until the PC stepped out of the space, but I'm still curious about the correct answer.
Now, obviously, the GM is always right, so, even if there is no rule like this, I have to deal with his decision. However, this would not be the first time this campaign that an on-the-spot house rule like this negatively impacted my character, and I'm getting a little frustrated.
If I just missed the rule, no big deal--wouldn't be the first time I was wrong. But, if he changed the rule, I'm going to have to start considering making a new character--something that can't be arbitrarily interfered with as easily (like a buffer/healer/enabler sort).
No, a PC is not struck by friendly weapons used to attack a swarm. In older versions of the game it was possible to strike a friendly while in a grapple. This may be the basis of your GMs ruling.
As a note: some of how pathfinder resolves things like grapples and swarms are not very realistic. I can see a GM houseruling them although I do not simply because it makes the monsters more powerful than intended.
Any area affect effect (weapon, spell, bomb) that does not include the PC does not damage the PC. Yes, it is possible to hit the swarm and not hit the PC because of this.
- Gauss
Kind of a trick question. Depends on the swarm, I think.
In your example of Rats. I would say No. You have the ability to physically attack the rats with a weapon (at major penalties) therefore you are not attacking the PC.
Bugs or Ants or any of the OTHER tiny swarms that you can ONLY hurt with 'splash damage'... then Yeah, if the PC is in the 5' square as the target then he's taking damage.
Same with the Alchemist. It's my understanding that these things target the 5' square and Precise bomb lets you 'not include' certain squares in the blast... However if you INCLUDE the square... Your including the square.
If a Rat swarm is 10'wide... and you only wnat to bomb 5' of it. THAT"S legit though.
As a DM, i give them the choice..
Attack penalty > no chance for whoopsie
No attack penalty > .. :D
Well, I don't see why it wouldn't. Sure, you could try to strike at them, but if you miss (and hit his AC instead), you damage them and miss.
However, this is where a spell like Magic Missile comes in; there is no miss chance or concealment to the spell, meaning that when it attacks the swarm, there is no chance for the spell to hit the target. But an attack that has no such discrepancy is all fair game for friendly fire.
In your example of Rats. I would say No. You have the ability to physically attack the rats with a weapon (at major penalties) therefore you are not attacking the PC.
There's no major penalties that I'm aware of. Slashing and piercing damage is halved--that's it.
Bugs or Ants or any of the OTHER tiny swarms that you can ONLY hurt with 'splash damage'...
A swarm of Fine or Diminutive creatures are not "only harmed by splash weapons," they are just immune to weapon damage. An alchemist's bombs, however, are not "weapons" exactly, and they deal energy damage.
then Yeah, if the PC is in the 5' square as the target then he's taking damage.
That is not how splash damage works. Splash damage hits a creature directly (in this case, the swarm), and then deals splash damage (generally minimum direct hit damage) to other creatures in the same and adjacent squares.
Same with the Alchemist. It's my understanding that these things target the 5' square and Precise bomb lets you 'not include' certain squares in the blast... However if you INCLUDE the square... Your including the square.
Precise Bombs lets an alchemist cause squares to be unaffected by splash damage. Someone sharing the swarm's square would take splash damage, but I chose to make that square unaffected by splash damage.
Or at least, that's my reading of it. If you disagree, I'll defer, as I'm not Pathfinder expert--provided you can quote some rules or a FAQ or something to back it up.
As a DM, i give them the choice..
Attack penalty > no chance for whoopsie
No attack penalty > .. :D
Is that a house rule, or would you be able to link me to the rules text that backs up that ruling? If it's a house rule, which is fine, would you not let players know ahead of time that you were changing things?
Well, I don't see why it wouldn't. Sure, you could try to strike at them, but if you miss (and hit his AC instead), you damage them and miss.
Can you provide a link to the rules text that backs that up?
However, this is where a spell like Magic Missile comes in; there is no miss chance or concealment to the spell, meaning that when it attacks the swarm, there is no chance for the spell to hit the target. But an attack that has no such discrepancy is all fair game for friendly fire.
Spells that target single creatures have no effect on Swarms, so Magic Missile would be useless.
If anyone can point me to some rules text that disagrees with me, I'd appreciate it. Otherwise, I think it's pretty evident this was another "on the spot house rule." That's fine, but I think I'll make another character whose schtick would be, at the very least, less susceptible to those sorts of things (though, yes, being unable to attack the swarm without hitting our allies did affect everyone equally).
I'd go for an archery Ranger for some non-collateral damaging ranged attacks, but I wouldn't want to deal with an animal companion, either, since they're pretty useless in this game, too. We've been ambushed at melee ranges without a roll several times by a variety of monsters despite the Druid's wolf (with Scent and a high Perception check and everything) on active watch for that kind of stuff all the time.
Maybe I'll go for a super healing Oracle of Life--can anyone think of a way a GM could nullify healing and buffing?
mplindustries:
It is an on the spot house rule. There is no rule in Pathfinder that states you hit your ally when he is grappled or in a swarm. That is a relic of older versions of the game.
If you want to look for a similar rule: look at the Cloaker's Engulf ability. That is a specific case where a creature who is grappled takes half the damage the cloaker does. BUT that is a specific ability of the cloaker and not a general ability.
- Gauss
Thanks, I appreciate knowing for sure. I don't think it's from him playing previous games, though. He seems like he's a pretty die-hard Pathfinder fan and has run quite a few games in the past. I'm the one coming from other editions (and yeah, I totally remember the Cloaker thing--they sucked to fight, but at least one knew that going into the game).
No, I think he just wants everything to be more difficult and doesn't realize that it's just becoming more frustrating, rather than more fun.
In that case talk to him about it. If he is that into the rules aspect ask him which rule this stems from. Otherwise, discuss the lack of fun part of it.
- Gauss
Swarms fill up a 10x10 space. Why are you attacking the same square as your ally in the first place? Attack one of the other three. It's just as effective and avoids this issue entirely.
For the record, though, unless you are using an area attack, grenade-like weapon, or something similar, your ally should be perfectly fine.
Swarms fill up a 10x10 space. Why are you attacking the same square as your ally in the first place? Attack one of the other three. It's just as effective and avoids this issue entirely.
Do all swarms take up 10x10? He had the rats only take up a 5x5 (and looking over the rules more, he didn't give the people they attacked AoOs, either).
Bestiary p232 Rat Swarm lists a rat swarm as: Space 10 ft.
Rat Swarms occupy a 10x10 foot area.
He should have been giving you all attacks of opportunity the moment they moved into your square.
- Gauss
Yep all swarms fill a 10x10 space. Larger swarms are actually multiple swarms filling a contiguous space (that is, multiple 10x10 swarms sitting next together moving as one).
Sigh.
Thanks, guys.