There's the general question, I suppose. I also want to ask a more specific question. Those unaware with the serpent's skull adventure path might want to keep away from this one. The spoiler is extremely mild but it's a spoiler none-the-less.
So I've been running Serpent's skull with a group, and to get ready for that I've been really quickly doing a test run with some other people (taking out the NPC interactions, etc. to learn what might come up in the real game). Anyway, here's the particular scenario:
The party reaches a room where there are four enemies who are basically about to sacrifice some tar covered people by throwing them into a flame. They warn the party that if they attack them, they'll kill the hostages. There's a paladin in the party, so there's no way at all they'll take that risk.
Now, one of the members of the group is a druid (storm druid to be exact, though it's irrelevant to the situation) who was lucky enough to have sleet storm prepared for the day. He figures (and as DM I agree with him) that casting sleet storm would put out the mundane fire and make the situation something less dire.
The question I have is how to resolve this sort of conflict. It's clearly a hostile scenario, but since no one is actually attacking, is initiative rolled? Can he just "have the spell cast" or is there a process to allow him to attempt this? Is there an official ruling for this sort of scenario, and if not how would you rule it personally?
As soon as someone (either side) makes an attack move or starts casting a spell you roll initiative.
In this case the druid starts casting the spell. Unless the other guys aren't insane or deaf they'll react to it, usually by attacking or casting spells of their own. So you roll Initiative now. If they roll higher initiative they act before the druid is done (before him) if not, then not.
There's the general question, I suppose. I also want to ask a more specific question. Those unaware with the serpent's skull adventure path might want to keep away from this one. The spoiler is extremely mild but it's a spoiler none-the-less.
So I've been running Serpent's skull with a group, and to get ready for that I've been really quickly doing a test run with some other people (taking out the NPC interactions, etc. to learn what might come up in the real game). Anyway, here's the particular scenario:
The party reaches a room where there are four enemies who are basically about to sacrifice some tar covered people by throwing them into a flame. They warn the party that if they attack them, they'll kill the hostages. There's a paladin in the party, so there's no way at all they'll take that risk.
Now, one of the members of the group is a druid (storm druid to be exact, though it's irrelevant to the situation) who was lucky enough to have sleet storm prepared for the day. He figures (and as DM I agree with him) that casting sleet storm would put out the mundane fire and make the situation something less dire.
The question I have is how to resolve this sort of conflict. It's clearly a hostile scenario, but since no one is actually attacking, is initiative rolled? Can he just "have the spell cast" or is there a process to allow him to attempt this? Is there an official ruling for this sort of scenario, and if not how would you rule it personally?
If the druid wants to cast the spell while the party is talking to the baddies he can. I'd suggest the baddies make a Perception check. If they fail he can cast the spell and then everyone rolls initiative. If they make the check roll initative to see if any of them can react before the spell is cast.
Well, it's a matter of Action V.S. Reaction. The opposing creatures I would treat them as, is a Readied Action to push them off should the PC's make any kind of attack them (if they are able to do so at the specific point in time). It's a difficult matter because there are no rules regarding Readied Creatures before initiative is rolled.
Personally, I would have the bad guys always be at the top of the initiative order (since they were already readied, the PC's would be below them in the initiative order due to them reacting first); this is a major setback for them since they didn't act against them during what would seem to be a surprise round, or even create one for them to get an advantage.
At any rate, this would mean that the PC's would be at a standstill, and it boils down to Hostage Negotiations, meaning it's all about Diplomacy checks or Intimidate or Bluff checks until they can weasel their way in and stop them.
At the same time, the other PC's can delay for the Druid to cast the Sleet Storm spell in the target area to disperse the flames, which is not something they were readied to react to, meaning the PC's would still have an advantage.
That's how it should most likely happen. The Bad Guys were ready to throw them in, saw the PC's, and Intimidated/Bluffed about throwing the people into the fire if they attacked, not if they were going to cast spells to disperse the flame.
I agree with Quatar's interpretation of the rules. However, as a DM, even if it is a hostile encounter, if they are just in heated conversation or negotiations, I always let the first person to act to act outside of initiative--a one person surprise round. Depending on the situation, I might only allow a standard action.
In my game your Druid would start casting the spell, and everyone else would be like, "What the WHAT!!?" and roll initiative. He would get the spell off and the battle would start. He would also be the primary target for a few rounds.
I would have everyone roll initiative. Since both sides are aware of the other, there would be no surprise round (unless there's a diviner present who ALWAYS gets to go in the surprise round). If someone wants to sneakily do something, I'd have them make a check (probably bluff) and if that succeeds against the bad guy sense motive or perception, they get to go in the surprise round because the others didn't notice in time. If only some of bad guys made the check, the sneaky actor and anyone who made the check get to go in the surprise round.
If the bad guys get to go first, have them ready an action with a specific trigger. If the good guys get to go first, the good guys can set up readied actions too.
Example: not in initiative yet
Bad guys: Stop were you are or we throw these unfortunates in the fire !
Paladin: Blast ! We are at an impasse !
Rogue : I try to sneak a throwing dagger into my hand
Druid : I start casting a spell
DM: Rogue, roll a sleight of hand vs bad guy perception
Rogue: Success !
DM: Druid, are you trying to be sneaky about casting or just doing it ?
Druid: Just doing it
Ok, roll initiatives. There will be a surpise round where only the rogue goes, then we go in order.
Initiatives : Rogue, Bad guy 1, Druid, bad guy 2, paladin.
Surprise round : Rogue standard action, readies to throw at the first bad guy who so much as twitches
Regular round:
rogue goes first, elects to keep his readied action
bad guy 1: Is that guy in furs casting ? Stop it or in the fire this one goes ! (readies action to throw if druid fails to stop)
Druid: casts, is interrupted by bad guy's readied action triggering, but that action is interrupted by the rogue's readied throw.
Rogue throws and hits or misses
Bad guy 1 throws the prisoner
Druid casts his spell
Bad guy two does whatever he's going to do
Paladin: Crud. Oh well, here goes ...
Personally, I would have the bad guys always be at the top of the initiative order (since they were already readied, the PC's would be below them in the initiative order due to them reacting first); this is a major setback for them since they didn't act against them during what would seem to be a surprise round, or even create one for them to get an advantage.
Good point about the readied action. On second thought, I would allow them to throw the hostages in the fire, but wouldn't the sleetstorm put it out that round anyway? Maybe I would give them 1d6 fire damage and a reflex save at the start of their turn DC15 (+2 or +4 to roll because of magic) to put it out.
I always let the first person to act to act outside of initiative--a one person surprise round. Depending on the situation, I might only allow a standard action.
In my game your Druid would start casting the spell, and everyone else would be like, "What the WHAT!!?" and roll initiative. He would get the spell off and the battle would start. He would also be the primary target for a few rounds.
This is how I'd rule it as well.
Well, it's a matter of Action V.S. Reaction. The opposing creatures I would treat them as, is a Readied Action to push them off should the PC's make any kind of attack them (if they are able to do so at the specific point in time). It's a difficult matter because there are no rules regarding Readied Creatures before initiative is rolled.
Personally, I would have the bad guys always be at the top of the initiative order (since they were already readied, the PC's would be below them in the initiative order due to them reacting first); this is a major setback for them since they didn't act against them during what would seem to be a surprise round, or even create one for them to get an advantage.
I disagree with that for several reasons.
First, remember all turns practically happen simultanously. The druid doesn't act for 6 seconds while everyone stands there and watches, then he nods to the enemy fighter who then has 6 seconds to bash the wizard into a pulp, before it's the clerics turn. All that happens at the same time more or less. Just those with higher initiative are a bit quicker to react to whats going on.Second: Why are only the enemy considered to have readied an action here? If you allow that, you would have to assume everyone has. They're all standing there talking, keeping the eyes open and ready to strike the moment the enemy makes a move.
So the druid cast his spell, triggering the readied action of the enemies fighter and he tries to move and interrupt, which triggers the readied action of the groups paladin who tries to intercept, which triggers... and so on. In the end everyone will have triggered a readied action against someone. So you roll Initiative and see who's readied action goes first. Or you just roll initiative and ignore the readied action part, because it makes no difference.
This is how I'd rule it as well.I always let the first person to act to act outside of initiative--a one person surprise round. Depending on the situation, I might only allow a standard action.
In my game your Druid would start casting the spell, and everyone else would be like, "What the WHAT!!?" and roll initiative. He would get the spell off and the battle would start. He would also be the primary target for a few rounds.
It depends really.
If you're at a social gathering where people mingle and talk and don't expect an attack, then yes.If its a situation where two parties face each other, each ready to fight... then no.
Since both sides are aware of the other, there would be no surprise round (unless there's a diviner present who ALWAYS gets to go in the surprise round).
I'm pretty sure that only allows a diviner to act in the surprise round if there is one in the first place.
The diviner could generate the surprise round by electing to act in this situation. He'd surprise everyone including his own team.
But if he chooses to wait and see, then yeah, there's no surprise round.
It depends really.
If you're at a social gathering where people mingle and talk and don't expect an attack, then yes.
If its a situation where two parties face each other, each ready to fight... then no.
If you want to interrupt someone doing something, you have to ready an action. That's even in the middle of combat, where you're fully aware the guy in front of you is a spellcaster, probably going to cast a spell, and you want to whack him when he does it.
That being the case, I see no reason why someone would get a free shot at this outside of combat, unless they had readied an action to do so. So if one of the baddies suspected the druid might be up to something and readied an action to attack him if he starts casting, then definitely.
If not, then he rolls initiative once he sees what's happening, and the druid gets the spell off.
@ Quatar: I wouldn't say "simultaneous" is a proper word; "universal" would be better, since all the actions they perform can function within a set time limit that happens each round (in this game, it's 6 seconds worth per round). If it were Simultaneous, a character that was tripped wouldn't have to stand up until the start of the next round, since all actions occur "simultaneously," as that is the definition of Simultaneous in many other "board" games (or in this case, games with squares and miniatures).
The enemies are considered to have a Readied Action because they were already in a process of dumping them anyway, but were interrupted by the party barging in, guns blazing and the whole 9 yards. They're telling them to not attack or the bodies will be dumped and they will retaliate (which doesn't make a difference to the party, since logically they'll just do just this anyway against intruders).
Within that sentence, the conditions of a Readied Action are set; they are to dump the bodies should the PC's attempt hostile actions against them. The Party could try and use Diplomacy and/or Intimidate and/or Bluff checks, but chances are they wouldn't work too well, so we go to the main event of what would happen.
While this has some variations, a fair way to estimate this is a perception (and/or spell craft) check to see if the Druid is casting a spell to attack them; the spell's target is the fire pit, meaning that by RAW the conditions set for them to dump the bodies would not trigger. At the same time, if the targets see the Druid as performing a Hostile Action (which casting a spell can or can not be, it would have to be a perception and/or spellcraft check to determine its nature and spell), the Readied Actions would thusly trigger before the spell's completion.
The enemies are considered to have a Readied Action because they were already in a process of dumping them anyway, but were interrupted by the party barging in, guns blazing and the whole 9 yards. They're telling them to not attack or the bodies will be dumped and they will retaliate (which doesn't make a difference to the party, since logically they'll just do just this anyway against intruders).
This makes sense to me. I think I'd have the baddies able to dump the bodies at the first sign of spellcasting. But they wouldn't be able to attack the druid in time to interrupt the spell. The dumping would be their readied action, then they'd roll initiative.
Oh man, thank you so much, there have been a ton of responses here.
I think my favorite here is just to pull the initiative card, since everyone is so ready to respond to things anyway. I'm not going to have anyone flat-footed either, quite frankly.
The universal nature of actions (rather than the wait 6 seconds idea) really helps me see how they could drop the hostages into the fire, but have the flame put out quickly enough not to kill them. So I think I have found a way to resolve this that feels natural and works with my style of gameplay.
Thanks again for all the help, everyone.