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So after doing some talking with some people about the Monk class, I got around to tinkering with it's abilities and wanted to see what everyone thought of it.
When I think of the Monk, the following things come to mind:
Flurry Of Blows
Impressive Defense
Mobility
Combat Maneuvers
The problem is that most of these abilities don't synchronize well with each other. The monk can move really fast, but he can't flurry if he does. The monk is great at grappling, but he can't grapple and flurry. The monk has awesome mobility and defenses, but he's encouraged to not use them.
With that in mind I came up with this:
To summarize for those who don't want to look at the document, I added the following abilities to the basic monk:
Flurry Step: The monk can now attack enemies that he passes using his flurry of blows attack bonus. This was inspired by 4E
Ki Step: This allows the monk to treat his AC as though he had Mobility when using Flurry Step.
Defensive Step: This allows the monk to spend a Ki point and deflect attacks of opportunity up to his Wisdom modifier when using flurry step.
Greater Flurry: This allows the monk to flurry of blows as a standard action, cannot be combined with Flurry Step.
Grappling Flurry: This allows the monk to initiate or maintain a grapple as part of a flurry of blows.
Happy to listen to any comments/criticisms. My goal here was to try to get the class to synergize more. While I don't think that the monks should be the best at dealing damage (Else, why have the fighter) I think it's fair that they trade lower damage for being able to be the most mobile fighter on the battle mat. I think these changes get the monk there.
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Given the monk's existing AC bonus from ki-defence, I don't think he needs another.
I myself would resolve most of the other issues with a slight wording change under ki pool - I would change:
"increase his speed by 20 feet for 1 round,"
To:
"move 20 feet as the swift action expended with the ki-point,"
Which is simple, direct, and lets the monk be mobile and still use his flurry-of-blows. Alternatively, if people think it should scale:
"move an addition 5' per five class levels as part of a 5' step," for expending 1 ki-point.
However, I think you've missed the monk's two main problems in combat: lack of enhancement and inability to bypass or overcome DR.
For the former I would suggest ki-strike granting an enhancement bonus to hit (not to damage) of +1 at 4th level, and increase this every three levels to cap at +5 at 16th level. This enhancement to hit would not stack with the AoMF, but the AoMF's enhancement to damage and special properties would stack with the ki-strike. This way the monk's accuracy is not impaired by their more expensive enhancement option. At the same time, they still have to choose between damage and special properties in the AoMF, and damage is hence still restricted while the monk can still hit and remain relevant vs high AC targets.
For the latter:
The monk may expend 1 ki point to be able to overcome DR/silver or cold iron, 2 ki points to be able to overcome DR/adamantine, for 3 ki points they may overcome DR/alignment, for one minute with his unarmed strike. I feel this ties in with the monk's 'legendary' ability to shatter rocks with their bare hands far better than the existing ki-strike ability and applies it to overcome DRs that are relevant.
The monk's other big problem is MAD, and I would address this by allowing the monk to apply his Wisdom bonus to hit with any monk weapon rather than Strength or Dexterity.
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Given the monk's existing AC bonus from ki-defence, I don't think he needs another.
Well, when I envision a monk fighting, I see a warrior who darts around his foes and pummels them. The problem with the monk is that he doesn't really do this: Instead he runs up to an enemy, punches him once, and then prays that the enemy doesn't move more than 5 feet.
With that in mind, I came up with the idea of Flurry Step after watching a friend play a 4E monk. I liked the idea of the monk running through a crowd of enemies, dodging their attacks while beating them to death. That seemed rather "monkish" to me, and yet the Pathfinder monk doesn't do that. I felt thus it would be a good solution to the problem of flurry of blows not synergizing with their enhanced movement.
I myself would resolve most of the other issues with a slight wording change under ki pool - I would change:"increase his speed by 20 feet for 1 round,"
To:
"move 20 feet as the swift action expended with the ki-point,"
Which is simple, direct, and lets the monk be mobile and still use his flurry-of-blows. Alternatively, if people think it should scale:
"move an addition 5' per five class levels as part of a 5' step," for expending 1 ki-point.
While I like the idea of the monk being able to move and then Flurry, I don't like it being ki dependent, I think he should just do it. But I also dislike the idea of it being available early, because moving and getting a full attack action is very powerful. That's why I put it in at level ten.
However, I think you've missed the monk's two main problems in combat: lack of enhancement and inability to bypass or overcome DR.For the former I would suggest ki-strike granting an enhancement bonus to hit (not to damage) of +1 at 4th level, and increase this every three levels to cap at +5 at 16th level. This enhancement to hit would not stack with the AoMF, but the AoMF's enhancement to damage and special properties would stack with the ki-strike. This way the monk's accuracy is not impaired by their more expensive enhancement option. At the same time, they still have to choose between damage and special properties in the AoMF, and damage is hence still restricted while the monk can still hit and remain relevant vs high AC targets.
I don't see the extra cost of enhancement bonuses being a huge detriment of the monk class. I've finished campaigns often with characters with only a +2 or +3 enhancement bonus, and we're talking like 3/4 BAB characters here.
I guess when I look at the monk, I see the lack of synergy of it's class abilities as a much more glaring issue, which is what I was trying to solve.
For the latter:The monk may expend 1 ki point to be able to overcome DR/silver or cold iron, 2 ki points to be able to overcome DR/adamantine, for 3 ki points they may overcome DR/alignment, for one minute with his unarmed strike. I feel this ties in with the monk's 'legendary' ability to shatter rocks with their bare hands far better than the existing ki-strike ability and applies it to overcome DRs that are relevant.
But doesn't every class have this problem? Can't the monk just get a pair of cold iron and silver temple swords and be done with it?
Don't get me wrong, I'm ok with this idea, I kinda like it actually, but I've never really found that bypassing DR to be such a huge issue that it NEEDS to be built into a class. Or heck, why not just take Eldritch Claws, that covers DR magic AND silver.
The monk's other big problem is MAD, and I would address this by allowing the monk to apply his Wisdom bonus to hit with any monk weapon rather than Strength or Dexterity.
I actually like the Monk being a bit MAD, I feel like if you don't have some MAD classes, you get too close to the problem of making everything so damn uniform that every class feels the same.
I think it's better to keep the monk MAD and make him more powerful than it is to keep him as is and make him less MAD.
Given the monk's existing AC bonus from ki-defence, I don't think he needs another.Well, when I envision a monk fighting, I see a warrior who darts around his foes and pummels them. The problem with the monk is that he doesn't really do this: Instead he runs up to an enemy, punches him once, and then prays that the enemy doesn't move more than 5 feet.
I always open with a trip attack or a grapple, if it looks like it might succeed, but I take your point.
With that in mind, I came up with the idea of Flurry Step after watching a friend play a 4E monk. I liked the idea of the monk running through a crowd of enemies, dodging their attacks while beating them to death. That seemed rather "monkish" to me, and yet the Pathfinder monk doesn't do that. I felt thus it would be a good solution to the problem of flurry of blows not synergizing with their enhanced movement.
I believe that Panther Style is what you are looking for there - that's what it does. Every time someone gets an AoO on you, you get one back on them.
While I like the idea of the monk being able to move and then Flurry, I don't like it being ki dependent, I think he should just do it. But I also dislike the idea of it being available early, because moving and getting a full attack action is very powerful. That's why I put it in at level ten.
I myself would resolve most of the other issues with a slight wording change under ki pool - I would change:"increase his speed by 20 feet for 1 round,"
To:
"move 20 feet as the swift action expended with the ki-point,"
Which is simple, direct, and lets the monk be mobile and still use his flurry-of-blows. Alternatively, if people think it should scale:
"move an addition 5' per five class levels as part of a 5' step," for expending 1 ki-point.
It's as powerful as your full attack, really. At any level, it's strong. At low level it's limited by low ki, and it's only 20' which at any level may not catch a foe that chooses to make a break for it.
I don't see the extra cost of enhancement bonuses being a huge detriment of the monk class. I've finished campaigns often with characters with only a +2 or +3 enhancement bonus, and we're talking like 3/4 BAB characters here.
I guess when I look at the monk, I see the lack of synergy of it's class abilities as a much more glaring issue, which is what I was trying to solve.
I guess that depends how you play your monks. I see the lack of enhancement as one increment of a problem that has several increments: MAD is one, because the monk's hitting stat is likely to be lower than a less MAD class. The other is enhancement. So being +1-2 down may not mean that much, but add it to another +1-2 and it's +2-4 and suddenly a problem.
I agree that lack of synergy is an issue with monk abilities, too. It's less important, to my mind, than a combat class being unable to fight.
But doesn't every class have this problem? Can't the monk just get a pair of cold iron and silver temple swords and be done with it?
Don't get me wrong, I'm ok with this idea, I kinda like it actually, but I've never really found that bypassing DR to be such a huge issue that it NEEDS to be built into a class. Or heck, why not just take Eldritch Claws, that covers DR magic AND silver.
Again, the enhancement issue is a part of it - DR/silver or cold iron is bypassed by +3, DR/adamantine by +4, and DR/alignment by +5. More to the point, though, other classes DO get a bump to getting through DR usually by way of dishing larger amounts of damage:
Barbarian gets increased strength when raging, so better chances to hit and more damage per hit can overwhelm DR by more hits and simply overwhelming it.Fighter gets weapon training for better hits and more damage, as well as better feats to do the same. Again, massive damage.
Paladin's smite automatically ignores all DR, as well has having bonuses to hit and damage. Nuff said.
Ranger's favoured enemy gives bonuses to attack and damage. Again they can overwhelm DR if they cannot bypass it.
Magus gets fighter feats, and is able to boost his enhancement to bypass DR.
Now the monk does not get massive damage unless you build them to have no AC or other abilities, and the devs have made clear they do not want to increase the monk's damage output directly. Currently their enhancement is more limited than other classes. So what does that leave them?
At 10th level my first major boss-fight was a disaster: it had DR/10 good & cold iron, high AC, high CMD, and was very mobile. My monk was essentially irrelevant for the entire combat, and that's not a nice feeling to have, rolling the dice and praying for a 20 that does not appear. It's not just that there was nothing he could do, there's nothing he could have done, no build that would make him able to deliver enough damage per hit to affect the combat, no feat he could have used to do anything.
I actually like the Monk being a bit MAD, I feel like if you don't have some MAD classes, you get too close to the problem of making everything so damn uniform that every class feels the same.
I think it's better to keep the monk MAD and make him more powerful than it is to keep him as is and make him less MAD.
Rangers and paladins are MAD, but not as MAD as the monk, and their MADness is rewarded. The monk's is not. Let me explain:
Paladin needs only two good scores to function - strength (or dex for an archer build) and charisma. His other abilities mean Con and Wis are not essential. Ranger needs one good score (strength or dex) and two moderate (Con and Wis). More for either is nice, but not essential for them to function.The monk needs two high and two moderate scores to function properly, more if they want to scout. Strength or dex - one needs to be high, the other at least moderate. Wisdom needs to be high for AC and abilities, con needs to be decent for hit points what with d8 hit dice.
Giving the monk Wisdom bonus to hit frees them up a little to be a bit different without having to pay a feat tax or lose out on AC in order to function. They then need one decent score, Wisdom, and the rest moderate because getting a high hitting stat is no longer an issue.
Instead of Flurry Step, Ki Step, and Defensive Step, consider augmenting fast movement with A monk entitled to a five-foot step may take one additional five-foot step for every ten feet of his fast movement.
Ta-da: he can move a level-dependent distance and flurry along the way without provoking. (Not my idea, I got it here, but I love it.)
I haven't read the re-imagining, but Dabbler's first line is sort of something I've been thinking about. I'm not even sure what sort of AC bonus these guys get, but ...
The slightly-more-MAD-than-most issue is in many ways due to the lack of easy armor for the monk, so they must pump up their two AC stats higher than other classes (with just about the majority of classes being MAD). I think that increasing the AC they get from their class feature is a nice way to help with this, as they then don't need to worry about Dex so much, meaning they need to focus on just 3 stats.
You'll see much the same thinking in the sohei. They have the option to wear armor (which would negate some of their class abilities), but it means they are less MAD. I believe the author of that stated that's the purpose of the armor proficiency.
It's a smart idea.
The current AC bonus is their level / 4. Perhaps an upgrade to level / 3 would help a bit. Granted, while the AC at that max level is fine, it's a bit lacking at lower levels. And by the time the AC bonus gets to good levels, AC has mostly plateaued.
One possible thing that could be done to make it more interesting is to give them an AC bonus for moving, like the scout did in 3.5. Or even more interesting, give them an AC bonus equal to the number of times they hit their enemy in the previous round. As they get into the rhythm of fighting a foe, their defenses increase quite a bit. This would have to be a second or third level ability to prevent dipping, but is something to think about.
I would agree, save that I do not want to encourage the incredible hulk style monk with massive strength and mediocre dex and wisdom. That's just...not a monk to me. I don't have a problem with that being a the kind of monk some players may want, I just want an alternative.
Hence, Wisdom to hit with monk weapons/unarmed strike/maneuvers. It means there is only one score the monk has to pump (which is just like every other class, basically), and that score isn't strength and doesn't carry a feat-tax in order to hit.
Hence, Wisdom to hit with monk weapons/unarmed strike/maneuvers.
Why not apply Wisdom to both attack and damage rolls?
Personally, I'd say a monk with equal scores for the big 4 would be the most monk-ish. But the big-strength monks I imagine are pretty thin guys without lots of visible muscle :)
Hmmmmm. Balance with your physical abilities. I haven't thought this through, but I wonder how this would work:
Physical Oneness (Ex): For the purposes of the monk's Wisdom modifier, they may either use their actual Wisdom modifier or the average modifier of their Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution. To determine the average modifier of the monk's physical ability scores, add the modifiers together and divide them by three. If you dip one level into monk for this ability, I swear to god I'll beat you with the CRB. Abilities, items, spells, or effects that modify or supplement the monk's Wisdom modifier can also add to their alternative Wisdom modifier. For example, if the monk has a Strength modifier of +4, a Dexterity modifier of +1, a Constitution modifier of +1, and a Wisdom modifier of +1, he may choose to use either +1 (unmodified) or +2 (alternative) as his effective Wisdom modifier. If he wears a Headband of Wisdom +2, he may choose to use either +2 (unmodified) or +3 (alternative) as his effective Wisdom modifier.
Yea, the language needs work (items don't actually give bonuses to modifiers, but effectively they do)
Hence, Wisdom to hit with monk weapons/unarmed strike/maneuvers.Why not apply Wisdom to both attack and damage rolls?
There's reducing MAD, and there's murderating MAD in the face with a rusty platypus. Adding Wisdom to damage and to-hit does the latter. Adding it just to-hit is somewhere between the former and the latter.
Personally, I'd say a monk with equal scores for the big 4 would be the most monk-ish.
I think this is a good concept to have within the monk spectrum, but I don't know that it's 'more monk' than a more focused monk build. There are a lot of styles of monks, and a lot of races with a lot of wildly varied outlooks and physical capabilities who -- while looking to balance mind and body -- still need to use the tools they have to overcome the challenges they face.
Basically, let people who want to play a balanced monk play a balanced monk, but don't suggest they're "doing it more right" than strength or dex monks. Different strokes for different folks.
Oh, right. I forgot to say that that doesn't work out in practice, so another solution would be necessary. Thanks for the reminder, and great point.
* Kill the alignment restriction.
* Give some armor proficiencies (and ability to use their stuff in some armors.)
*
There's reducing MAD, and there's murderating MAD in the face with a rusty platypus. Adding Wisdom to damage and to-hit does the latter. Adding it just to-hit is somewhere between the former and the latter.Hence, Wisdom to hit with monk weapons/unarmed strike/maneuvers.Why not apply Wisdom to both attack and damage rolls?
The problem of overcoming f***ing DR... murdering MAD would be WIS replaces STR, DEX and CON (in combinations or all 3).
There's reducing MAD, and there's murderating MAD in the face with a rusty platypus. Adding Wisdom to damage and to-hit does the latter. Adding it just to-hit is somewhere between the former and the latter.Hence, Wisdom to hit with monk weapons/unarmed strike/maneuvers.Why not apply Wisdom to both attack and damage rolls?
I agree in not adding Wisdom to damage, but I think wisdom to hit is not a bad thing at all if restricted to monk weapons/unarmed strike/maneuvers. I certainly cannot see how it would be overpowered given what the monk has to give up elsewhere and I cannot see any other way of making the monk less MAD.
I agree in not adding Wisdom to damage, but I think wisdom to hit is not a bad thing at all if restricted to monk weapons/unarmed strike/maneuvers. I certainly cannot see how it would be overpowered given what the monk has to give up elsewhere and I cannot see any other way of making the monk less MAD.
Wisdom to damage with the same restriction as wisdom to hit? also dropping Strength mean lowering CMB, CMD, carrying capacity, etc...
Wis to accuracy would be overly dippable. Restricting it to monk weapons doesn't help much because the class that most wants it can treattheir deity's favored weapon as a monk weapon.
I guess it slows down the druid, except there's a feat to treat natural weapons as unarmed strikes as well.
Yeah, bad idea. Can't allow it early enough to save the monk. Having to suck for enough levels to prevent dipping so you can be mediocre later on is not going to cut it.
I read your concerns - except that it is already out there, and not considered broken in the Sensei monk archetype that gets it at 2nd level. So far I have not heard the rush of clerics dipping two levels of Sensei to get Wisdom to their attack bonuses.
I read your concerns - except that it is already out there, and not considered broken in the Sensei monk archetype that gets it at 2nd level. So far I have not heard the rush of clerics dipping two levels of Sensei to get Wisdom to their attack bonuses.Wis to accuracy would be overly dippable. Restricting it to monk weapons doesn't help much because the class that most wants it can treattheir deity's favored weapon as a monk weapon.
I guess it slows down the druid, except there's a feat to treat natural weapons as unarmed strikes as well.
Yeah, bad idea. Can't allow it early enough to save the monk. Having to suck for enough levels to prevent dipping so you can be mediocre later on is not going to cut it.
You'll see this quite a bit in the game, actually. The really good and essential (for the class / archetype) abilities are generally at 2nd level. Really good things for anyone are usually at 3rd or higher. Putting the abilities at level 2 is kind of an anti-dipping mechanism, although putting them at 3rd level is the Super Anti-Dipping Mechanism. That archetype in particular works because you lose the ability that would make wisdom to hit a particularly bad idea, as well as a lot of the big monk class features.
In my gaming group we gave the monk ftr BA and d10 hp and expanded their bonus feats.
I read your concerns - except that it is already out there, and not considered broken in the Sensei monk archetype that gets it at 2nd level. So far I have not heard the rush of clerics dipping two levels of Sensei to get Wisdom to their attack bonuses.You'll see this quite a bit in the game, actually. The really good and essential (for the class / archetype) abilities are generally at 2nd level. Really good things for anyone are usually at 3rd or higher. Putting the abilities at level 2 is kind of an anti-dipping mechanism, although putting them at 3rd level is the Super Anti-Dipping Mechanism. That archetype in particular works because you lose the ability that would make wisdom to hit a particularly bad idea, as well as a lot of the big monk class features.
I think that had a lot to do with front-loaded classes in 3.5, where you could dip one level and get half the class features there and then. Pathfinder spread them over the first two levels to negate this somewhat and rewarded sticking with the same class.
Certainly I wouldn't have a problem with having to wait until 2nd level monk to get the advantage of Wis-to-hit, although I would prefer it at first.
*sigh* I have worked and re-worked the monk until it simply turned into a Frankenstein monster no one wanted. I think the closest I have ever come to something I wanted was when I redesigned the Pugilist.
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It's easy to get carried away with rebuilds, I know I did. On the flip side, my own works led me to a very 'customizable' design, though still very much a work in progress.
That all said, Paizo are looking for minor changes rather than major ones. Minor changes could do it, as well, as long as they are the right ones.