Damage die for Eidolon

[Karlgamer]

There are lots of things that increase the Damage die for an eidolon.

Improved Natural Attack (Monster feat)

ENLARGE PERSON(spell)

Improved Damage (Ex) (An Evolution)

Strong Jaw. (spell)

of these and others:

1. Which ones stack?

2. In what order do they stack?

[Elamdri]

The following increase the damage dice

Large/Huge Evolution
Improved Natural Attack Feat
Improved Damage Evolution
Enlarge person
Strong Jaw

They all stack, which is why having an eidolon with 6 claws is so good.

[Karlgamer]

In what order do they stack?

Because they increase at different rates.

[Elamdri]

Hold On, let me plug it into hero lab

[Elamdri]

Claws:

Base Damage: 1d4

Add Improved Natural Weapon Feat: 1d6

Then Improved Damage Evolution: 1d8

Then Large Size: 2d6

Then Huge Size: 3d6

Then Enlarge Person: 4d6

Then Strong Jaw: 8d6

[Elamdri]

Bite:

Base Damage: 1d6

Feat: 1d8

Evolution: 2d6

Large: 3d6

Huge: 4d6

Enlarge: 6d6

Strong Jaw: 12d6

[Karlgamer]

Okay my player has:

Improved Natural Attack (Monster feat)

ENLARGE PERSON(spell)

Improved Damage (Ex) (An Evolution)

Strong Jaw. (spell)

For a bite I think it starts at 1d6.

[Elamdri]

Slam:

Base Damage: 1d8

Feat: 2d6

Evolution: 3d6

Large: 4d6

Huge: 6d6

Enlarge: 8d6

Strong Jaw: I broke Hero Lab :(

[Elamdri]

Karlgamer wrote:

Okay my player has:

Improved Natural Attack (Monster feat)

ENLARGE PERSON(spell)

Improved Damage (Ex) (An Evolution)

Strong Jaw. (spell)

For a bite I think it starts at 1d6.

Base Bite: 2d6

Bite With Strong Jaw: 4d6

Bite With Enlarge Person: 3d6

Bite With Both Spells: 6d6

[Elamdri]

From what Hero Lab is telling me, the damage dice progression for Eidolons is

1d4-1d6-1d8-2d6-3d6-4d6-6d6-8d6-12d6

[HaraldKlak]

Elamdri wrote:

From what Hero Lab is telling me, the damage dice progression for Eidolons is

1d4-1d6-1d8-2d6-3d6-4d6-6d6-8d6-12d6

HeroLab does make mistakes now and then.

While it makes a small difference, I think using the progression from 'natural attacks by size' is more correct, which would end in:

1d4-1d6-1d8-2d6-2d8-4d6-4d8-8d6-8d8 (the last probably inaccesable, since strong jaw, would double it instead).

[Elamdri]

HaraldKlak wrote:

Elamdri wrote:

From what Hero Lab is telling me, the damage dice progression for Eidolons is

1d4-1d6-1d8-2d6-3d6-4d6-6d6-8d6-12d6

HeroLab does make mistakes now and then.

While it makes a small difference, I think using the progression from 'natural attacks by size' is more correct, which would end in:

1d4-1d6-1d8-2d6-2d8-4d6-4d8-8d6-8d8 (the last probably inaccesable, since strong jaw, would double it instead).

Well, the issue is that the Natural Attack Feat throws a hitch into things

Benefit: Choose one of the creature's natural attack forms (not an unarmed strike). The damage for this natural attack increases by one step on the following list, as if the creature's size had increased by one category. Damage dice increase as follows: 1d2, 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 12d6.

[Karlgamer]

So what is the consensus here?

[Ravingdork]

Karlgamer, this is an old question. There hasn't been a consensus since Pathfinder's inception.

Note that the Improved Damage evolution doesn't increase the attack damage size (which has a set progression established in the rules), but the die's size.

Standard Damage Increases 1d2 > 1d3 > 1d4 > 1d6 > 1d8 > 2d6 > 3d6 > 4d6 > 6d6 > 8d6 > 12d6 or 1d10 > 2d8 > 3d8 > 4d8 > 6d8 > 8d8 > 12d8.

Standard Die Sizes d4 > d6 > d8 > d10 > d12 > d20

That throws a wrench into things as the order of operations suddenly becomes pertinent.

If they all followed the established progression then it may not have been a problem to begin with (though I haven't checked to confirm this).

In any case, I suspect it's just a bad rules write up and all of it is meant to follow the standard damage increase scale rather than the die scale.

[Karlgamer]

So I would guess that we first change the die type

then apply size modifications, including "as if" size modifications(Strong Jaw).

then apply Improved Natural Attack.

1d6 bite
1d8 bite (Improved damage)
2d6 bite (Improved damage)(large)
4d6 bite (Improved damage)(large)(Strong Jaw)
6d6 bite (Improved damage)(large)(Strong Jaw)(Improved Natural Attack)

[HangarFlying]

Is there an exception somewhere that allows an eidolon to be the target of an enlarge person spell, or am I taking the spell description too far when the target is "humanoid"?

Thanks!

[Roberta Yang]

HangarFlying wrote:

Is there an exception somewhere that allows an eidolon to be the target of an enlarge person spell, or am I taking the spell description too far when the target is "humanoid"?

Thanks!

Share Spells lets the summoner cast personal spells and humanoid spells on the Eidolon.

[HangarFlying]

Ah, got it! Thanks!

[HaraldKlak]

Karlgamer wrote:

So I would guess that we first change the die type

then apply size modifications, including "as if" size modifications(Strong Jaw).

then apply Improved Natural Attack.

1d6 bite
1d8 bite (Improved damage)
2d6 bite (Improved damage)(large)
4d6 bite (Improved damage)(large)(Strong Jaw)
6d6 bite (Improved damage)(large)(Strong Jaw)(Improved Natural Attack)

I would tend to apply the temporary bonusses (strong jaw + possibly enlarge person) last.

1d6
1d8 (large)
2d6 (large)(Imp Damage)
3d6 (large)(Imp Damage) (INA)
6d6 (large)(Imp Damage) (INA)(Strong Jaw)

Ultimately it is the same, as long as you don't some of the levels.
Even then the difference between 3d6 and 2d8 isn't problematic.

[Karlgamer]

HaraldKlak wrote:

I would tend to apply the temporary bonusses (strong jaw + possibly enlarge person) last.

I would too but they each uses a different chart for advancement

Large and Strong Jaw both use Natural Attacks By Size

Although Strong Jaw is only "as if the creature were two sizes larger"

Improved damage just increase the damage die type by one step.

and Improved Natural Damage is a feat with it's own chart: 1d2, 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 12d6

HaraldKlak wrote:

Ultimately it is the same, as long as you don't some of the levels.

Well it's all different depending on how you stacks them

1d6
1d8 (large)
1d10 (large)(Improved Damage: "increase the damage die type by one step")
2d8 (large) (Imp Damage)(INA)
4d8 (Large)(Imp Damage)(INA)(Strong Jaw) ?!?!?

4d8 = min(4)---ave(18)---max(32)
6d6 = min(6)---ave(21)---max(36)

[dpp84290]

The way I do it is in order of permanency.

Feats First because they cannot be changed no matter what on the eidolon. Then Evolutions because they can only be changed at level ups. Then spells in the order they were applied. (And I'm assuming Ravingdork isn't right about the improved damage evolution: "Select one natural attack form and increase the damage die type by one step," is intentionally worded to avoid the normal progression.)

So on your example:
Medium Bite = 1d6
Improved Natural Attack Feat = 1d8
Improved Damage evolution = 1d10
Enlarge Person = 2d8
Strong Jaw = 4d8

And in your case, you can't get around that, even with an evolution surge, making it a temporary spell cast after all the other effects.

Medium Bite = 1d6
Improved Natural Attack Feat = 1d8
Enlarge Person = 2d6
Strong Jaw = 4d6
Improved Damage Evolution (surge) = 4d8

But with different combinations of abilities it can create different outcomes:
Order 1
Medium Claw = 1d4
Imp NAF = 1d6
Imp DE = 1d8
Enlarge = 2d6
Strong Jaw = 4d6

Order 2
Medium Claw = 1d4
Imp NAF = 1d6
Enlarge = 1d8
Strong Jaw = 3d6
Imp DE = 3d8

The reason I do permanency is because magic alters what is already there, and it reverts when the magic is suppressed. And, if one of your spell effects is dispelled, I know what happens to your damage. In the above, let's assume you had cast evolution surge before enlarge in chart one, it was dispelled by dispel magic, and so the summoner had to cast evolution surge again while enlarge and strong jaw are still in effect. Effectively, you would move from Order #1 to Order #2 damage.

It's a little annoying to have to work out the new damage each time, but at least I always know exactly what my order of operations are and can be certain I'm doing it fairly for everyone.

[dpp84290]

I almost forgot because its not included in your example, but the large-huge evolution is different. Even if you evolution surge it instead of taking it from your normal evolution pool, it still comes before all other spells when it changes your damage, because the eidolon natural attack explicitly states each attack's base damage by size instead of the large evolution changing the damage dice as a spell effect. So no matter where it occurs in the chain, the large evolution alters the base damage of the natural attack.

This is different than enlarge person, which specifically states you move up damage according to size as part of the spell's effect: "All equipment worn or carried by a creature is similarly enlarged by the spell. Melee weapons affected by this spell deal more damage (see Table: Tiny and Large Weapon Damage)."

So with bite, it would be:
Your evolution makes you Large size category:
Bite = 1d8
Imp NAF = 2d6
Enlarge = 3d6
Strong Jaw = 6d6
Imp DE = 6d8

Even if you used Greater evolution surge to take improved Damage and Large at the same time, large alters the base damage of bite before all the other calculations, and the rest of it goes in order.