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cibet44 |
Tonight we finished our Carrion Crown campaign. Start to finish it took 11 3/4 months. We used the PF core rule book only. The party of 4 PCs (3 players) got to 14th level by the end. We started in early October, 2011 and Finished September 17, 2012.
Thanks to Michael Kortes, Richard Pett, Tim Hitchcock, Greg A. Vaughan, Neil Spicer, and Brandon Hodge. Good times had by all.
The finale adventure and encounter went off rather well, I'm happy to say. My original intention was to have Marrowgarth be the climactic encounter however when the PCs encountered her in what was supposed to be a preliminary battle they ended up utterly killing her in 3 rounds and they were only 13th level at the time! Really surprised me. I had a dracolich mini and everything! So the actual climax was the battle with Adivion atop Gallowspire. I ended just winging all his magus stuff and running him for the most part like a beefed up sorcerer (I still have no idea what all those magus abilities were supposed to do). The group finished him off with a "wack a mole type strategy" and using an [i]antimagic field[/]. It was enjoyable and I think I managed to fill in the plot holes to the point where my players weren't distracted by them. The Nightshade were very interesting creatures. They have quite the back story. Very enjoyable. Overall it went pretty well.
Next up for us is Serpents Skull. I'm looking forward to the more free form style. I think the jungle trek/exploration theme will be a nice change for my players. I'll especially be editing out the vast majority of undead from it. After CC we've seen enough undead for a while.
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cibet44 |
Highs:
- Part 6 was quite a challenge for my group and had boatloads of atmosphere. I thought part 6 of this AP was one of the better volumes of the path. Typically I have found the part 6's to be the worst of the path. Except for Savage Tide, this part 6 was the best end-cap adventure I have GMd.
- Good variety of opponents. Even though this AP was heavily focused on undead it still managed a very good variety of opponents for the PCs to face across the level bands. I never felt anything got repetitive or grinded.
- Appropriately stingy treasure hoards. The first volume started out a little too heavy on the treasure for me but then the rest were just about perfect. I run a very low magic item game and I never felt like I had to cut back on the treasure allotments. In fact, in part 6 I had to add some treasure of my own; which was a first for me in GMing ANY AP.
- The Whispering Way certainly lived up to its reputation. Usually I have to spice up the bad guys a bit for my players to make them seem more menacing but that was not necessary with the Whispering Way. Their plots were certainly byzantine and convoluted (see below for more) but my players really did fear them with no or little embellishment from me. In part 6, Virlych (with its supernatural weather and awesome wandering monster tables) and Renchurch (with its creepy rooms and crazy inhabitants above and below the surface) and Gallowspire (with it deadly undead and desolate surroundings) really made my players, even at high level, just want to get out. They never questioned why a place like Virlych was allowed to exist in the world despite it being the known headquarters of an evil organization. Once they set foot in the area they understood and agreed that "cautions watching" was the best approach to dealing with these murderous fanatics rather than outright assault.
- Good sprinkling of knowledge and history throughout each part of the AP. Every volume had something interesting and (more importantly) useful for the players to learn with knowledge checks or research. Unfortunately almost all this information was buried in walls of text, but still, it was there and when my players found it they felt rewarded. The background information served to help the players in a variety of ways and move the plot along. That's what the background story is supposed to to in these APs and this one did it.
- The encounter sites were appropriately fleshed out and physically limited. Each encounter area had all the details I needed to run it (lighting, make up of walls, ceiling height, etc) and was limited enough in size that my players never got bored or lost. There were no sprawling 30 room dungeons and level on top of level worth of catacombs.
Lows:
- The plot lacked cohesion. The ties between the individual volumes were at times paper thin. I like my AP based campaigns to seem like one long adventure not a series of loosely linked ones. I had to do quite a bit of extra work to keep the seems from showing too much between the AP volumes. This was unfortunate because plot cohesion is one of the major reasons I use published campaigns.
- The plot has some major holes. As written, it is assumed the players successfully obtain an artifact and rescue a prisoner. If just one of these things is accomplished (let alone BOTH) the Whispering Ways plan is essentially foiled completely. By the end of part 4 the players have the artifact and at the beginning of part 6 they have rescued the prisoner. At both of these points the players can and will (correctly!) assume they have "won" and will see no reason to continue with the campaign. As GM if you don't see this coming and prepare for it ahead of time the entire campaign has the potential to grind to a halt at two separate places. I was able to work around this in advance but it could take many GMs by surprise. These seem like obvious enough plot holes to me that they should never have occurred in the finished product.
- This is probably a complaint unique to me but the rules creep for this AP seemed contrived and tacked on. I am not a fan of rules beyond the core rulebook and this AP seemed randomly sprinkled with confusing, undefined (unless you had the books in question I guess) rules and treasure that I constantly had to swap out or replace on the fly. Then it goes on to fully define and add new rules with the "Agent of the Grave" prestige class but only uses it in one part of the AP, a double whammy for busy GMs. Yuck. I did break down and buy the Bestiary 2, frankly it is a requirement for running this AP at all.
- Part 4 was misplaced. The Mythos stuff in part 4 should have been saved for the end or not used at all in this AP. It seemed out of place and did a disservice to what I know Paizo can do with Mythos. Putting it in part 4 of the AP I'm sure helped boost sales for the volume but it sacrificed the horror and gravitas of the stuff as a result. I hope someday we get the full Mythos treatment from Paizo. In addition, part 4 was aged way too forward for my tastes. Top hats and iron submarines are not part of my fanatsy game, seeing them pop up here in this volume was jarring and nonsensical.
- Part 2s court room trial was fun and interesting (again a bit too aged up for me but I overlooked it) but it clove too closely to the Frankenstein inspiration. It should have deviated more from the obvious source. I did this on my own but I'm surprised it was written the way it was in final print.
- Part 5 was boring. Not much happens in it plot-wise and aristocratic vampires living under a metropolis is cliche. Not to mention some (maybe most) of these particular vampires seemed powerful enough to stop the Whispering Way if they wanted so why would they need or want the PCs help at all? To catch a vampire serial killer who's main weapon is a wand of halt undead? Oh boy. These vampires have personally met with and betrayed Tar-Baphon himself why would they even care about a serial killer in their midst? I know this volume was to be something of a "hard choices" moment for the players but I just don't think it pulled it off.
- I won't rehash all the Adivion complaints here suffice to say I agree with them. What should have been played up more was the fact that each volume had some kind of hideous monster as it own BBEG but part 6, the climax, essentially had a pretty normal human as the ultimate BBEG illustrating the "greatest monster of them all is MAN!" type of trope. I added a dash of this on my own and my players got a kick out of it but ultimately Advion should not have been part of the WW plans at all. There are too many reasons to list here why this guy would even be allowed into the WW at all let alone lead the charge is resurrecting their greatest champion ever.
- Too many precious words wasted on the "Harrow Deck" side bars. I didn't bother with the cheesy device and I hope Paizo has gotten this thing out of their system now. After this and Crimson Throne I've seen way too much Harrow stuff. Ok, you got the Harrow Deck stuff into 2 APs now whoever you are that is such a fan of this thing, great job, lets please move on.
- Overuse of haunts, especially in part 6. They are a great low level trap with a nice story telling mechanic but when you get to mid and high levels they have too many undefined rules holes to be effective. They just bog things down and sometimes award an obscene amount of XPs for very little threat or have completely overwhelming effects. Basically they are all over the place at high level.
- This final one has nothing to do with this AP but the PF rules in general. In PF it takes about 20 CR appropriate encounters to level. This is great at low level but at high level (say 12+) encounters take so long and are so mentally draining (in a good way!) that 20 is just too many. Once you get to high level the XP curve should flatten out and allow PCs to level every 10 CR appropriate encounters. It would take the same amount of real time since the encounters can be very time consuming at high levels, but would allow the group to do more and more quickly in the game itself if they only needed 10 encounters to level.
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Brandon Hodge Contributor |
![Guy in a fez with a monkey](http://cdn.paizo.com/image/avatar/PF21-16.jpg)
Fantastic review, and, as always, both the praise and criticism is well-appreciated. You've been a solid presence on the boards throughout this AP's lifespan, and I know myself and the other authors are grateful for your contributions to it and your feedback/encouragement to others. Thanks again! =-)
PS: You should parse out your review for the chapters and post them on the product pages!
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Voomer |
![Sabriyya Kalmeralm](http://cdn.paizo.com/image/avatar/PZO9248-Sabriyya_90.jpeg)
Thanks so much for this review. Lots of great points. I have four questions:
(1) How often do you game and for how long each session? We've been playing for over a year and we are only mid way through TOTB, but most of us have kids and can only swing a few hours 2-3 times a month. It seems like you must play pretty often/long to do the whole path in less than a year. Jealous!
(2) How did you deal with the problem you describe as follows: "The plot has some major holes. As written, it is assumed the players successfully obtain an artifact and rescue a prisoner. If just one of these things is accomplished (let alone BOTH) the Whispering Ways plan is essentially foiled completely. By the end of part 4 the players have the artifact and at the beginning of part 6 they have rescued the prisoner. At both of these points the players can and will (correctly!) assume they have "won" and will see no reason to continue with the campaign. . . . I was able to work around this in advance but it could take many GMs by surprise."
(3) Did you do anything to deal with your complaint about haunts? Did you omit haunts or figure out an alternate mechanic?
(4) Couldn't the last problem you identify (about needing too many encounters to level up a high levels) be addressed by switching to the "fast" track, which would of course require the omission of some encounters from volume 6...
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cibet44 |
Thanks so much for this review. Lots of great points. I have four questions:
1) We are all working adults with spouses and kids as well. We've been playing D&D (now Pathfinder) together for over 25 years so we work out our schedules pretty well after all this time. We play roughly 2-4 times a month for 6-8 hours. I think the key to getting the APs done in under a year is to not add any side quests or encounters, play low magic, and use core rules only.
2) For the artifact, instead of making it a required component for the Carrion Crown elixir (as written) I made it a "nice to have" for the Whispering Way since the only way to destroy it is to use it as a component create a lich. So the WW just wanted it to destroy a holy artifact but didn't need it to complete their plan.
For the rescue of the prisoner it was a bit more complicated. Rescuing the prisoner was a primary reason for the PCs to travel to Vyrlych so I couldn't just remove the plot point. Luckily, as written, the WW gets a head start on the PCs to Vyrlych and traveling across Vyrlych for the PCs is very difficult. So in the end the heroes did all they could but just did not make it to Renchurch in time for a successful rescue. So by the time the players made it to the prisoner he was already dead, nothing more than an empty husk. This seemed to come as a result of the players choices, but behind the scenes I was going to make this happen no matter what. So it showed the players that the WW was serious and not to be messed with, and that their plan was moving forward no matter what. The "husk" that was the prisoner I described as an artifact level component thats only purpose was to be part of a ceremony to resurrect Tar-Baphon and the only way to destroy it was wish, mages disjunction, or to use it in the resurrection of Tar-Baphon, so of course the WW would stop at nothing to retrieve it from the PCs and they would be forever hunted if they kept it. Since they did not have access to the required spells and could not easily get out of VyrLych (the adventure describes why) they had no choice but to travel to Gallowspire with the "husk", let Adivions ritual complete, and then destroy him permanently once he was transformed. In the end they actually had to help complete the ritual they were trying so desperately to stop throughout the campaign.
3) I used a few of them but for the most part I omitted them. When I did use them I greatly simplified their effects by making it a one time save against some kind of debilitating spell cast at 20th level, usually antipathy. I primarily used the whispering haunt effect (and save) when the PCs would try to rest anywhere in VyrLych.
4) I guess, but I don't like the idea of randomly switching between XP tracks during the campaign. I think the fast track is too fast at low levels but the medium track is too slow at high levels. I think the XP curve in general needs to be changed to account for the real time and energy high level encounters take. Low levels are fine the way they are (on medium). High level encounters should be rare, epic kind of battles and surviving them victoriously should be a special event. It makes both story and rules based sense to me that high level PCs would fight less often but when they did the stakes would be much higher and the rewards greater (like faster levels).
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cibet44 |
Thanks for the answers. I'll keep all that in mind. I'm impressed you all manage to play for so much time. You must have very accommodating spouses! One follow-up: What does it mean to "play low magic" and how does that help you get through the Path faster?
I play at about 1/2 the Wealth By Level suggestions for the players. So I strip out any treasure beyond this point and I eliminate magic items from opponents and re-calculate stats on the fly. My players typically do not get non-consumable magic items until around 6th level. This takes away a lot of fiddly math and bookkeeping that comes with D20 play.