Played a mod this past weekend, was killed during it. Got home from the convention and reviewed the scenario... Monster that killed me hit me 5 times in one round one of which was a critical hit for a total of 147 points of damage. After reviewing the stat block I noticed that something was off, as 147 was the maximum damage the monster could have done rolling max on all attacks (including max rend and assuming power attack which did not happen.
Is it possible for anything to be done after the fact? I assume it was just a judge accidental mathematical error. I had no reason to suspect foul play during the scenario so why would I question it at the table?
You shouldn't be researching the numbers, and the stats of what you faced in a game to find out why you lost.
It doesn't bother me so much, I can sympathise, but some dms absolutely hate book keepers that say, oh no, it should have gone this way, you can't do that, I have one more round left. The creature could be modified, a crit might have got through that you weren't told (all those hits feel hard, you die, you don't notice the crit as your body explodes from the damage baldur's gate style).
I've been in your shoes, and I have raised the hand of protest, it doesn't go well.
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PS: On a rule's note- rend is additional damage and not a separate attack. Likewise you can't elect to activate a spellstoring weapon's stored (say) shocking grasp when you crit with the weapon to get another crit with the shocking grasp spell.. or a second set of sneak dice.
I'm sorry, but the rules for spell storing weapons don't contain an exception for critical hits. Would you like to tell us why you believe you cannot activate a spell storing weapon on a critical hit?
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As far as going back, if I kill a player ....
*I will however mock reading comprehension failure.
Hopefully you killed the character - killing the player is likely to garner more penalties - ;)
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(someone who was also there for the near TPK plane shift escape party leaving behind one dead and one feebleminded and dominated.)
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If you will look at the wording on rend, you will see that it is additional damage. You don't get power attack, weapon spec, sneak dice, etc on additional damage. The rend is not a separate attack, but rather is additional damage on the attack that triggers the rend... much like sneak attack, flaming weapons, and the like.
You even have a dev having said the same thing a long time ago publicly on these boards without any contradiction from any other dev. It's even made its way to d20pfsrd.org under the rend entry in a further display of transparency.
I assume you didn't see this post from further up the thread?
The rend universal monster rule grants the creature an additional damage roll after successfully making two different attacks. Since it's a melee damage roll from a different attack than the first two, it gets Power Attack as well.
Thus, a GM applying Power Attack to a rend damage roll is operating completely within the rules.
For what it's worth, that's how I read the rules, even before Mark posted.
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Would a Ghoul that has rend (Ghul for example) also cause a third save vs. Paralization with a rend "attack"? If it's a different attack, it would also get a Paralization effect wouldn't it?
Not necessarily, because the paralyzation is on the claw attacks. Yes, they are using their claws to do the Rend, but it's not the same thing, technically. I guess. :/
Really I could understand the ruling either way.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I don't see anything about paralysis on the ghul... Would there be another example to look at? Because what matters is if paralysis is listed as part of the rend attack (i.e., "rend (1d6+4 plus paralysis)"). If it doesn't say that, it doesn't apply.
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So going from a side standpoint, I can definitely see how people can read that it is "additional damage" similar to sneak attack and such. It all comes down to the wording of "This attack deals an additional amount
of damage, but no more than once per round." I could see it being read as that the qualifying attack is the attack referenced; however I can also see a reading of it being an "additional (auto-hit) attack."
In the end it just comes down to GM / table variation, which I'm fine with. GMs aren't robots and are meant to interpret gray rules during a game. Also, in this specific case it only came down to a 9-damage difference.
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So going from a side standpoint, I can definitely see how people can read that it is "additional damage" similar to sneak attack and such. It all comes down to the wording of "This attack deals an additional amount
of damage, but no more than once per round." I could see it being read as that the qualifying attack is the attack referenced; however I can also see a reading of it being an "additional (auto-hit) attack."In the end it just comes down to GM / table variation, which I'm fine with. GMs aren't robots and are meant to interpret gray rules during a game. Also, in this specific case it only came down to a 9-damage difference.
The 9 damage difference was actually the difference between life and death in this case!
Every little bit counts! :P
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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So...is there a such thing as an illegal character death?
Yes. For example, I have heard of GMs reporting a PC as dead as a means of punishing a player for something the GM didn't like. Less severe (but equally illegal) cases would be enforcing the "massive damage rule" (Fort save or die if you take over 50 damage at once), using charm person as though it were dominate person to force a PC to kill the other PCs even while the caster continues to attack the victim openly, buffing up an encounter the GM thinks is too easy and killing a PC as a result, and so forth.
Sometimes PCs die because one or more players made poor decisions.
Sometimes PCs die because the dice conspire against them.
Sometimes PCs die because they just happened to be poorly suited to the challenge at hand.
Sometimes PCs die because the GM made an honest mistake.
Those are all fine. But sometimes PCs die because the GM either wanted to "win", couldn't be bothered to learn the rules, or balked at having his ultimate authority challenged. Those are illegal character deaths.