Goblin Squad Member
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So i've been playing GuildWars 2 and i've been pleasantly suprised at how much fun it is. The entire questing system consists of public quest and its great.
The world vs. world vs world has the large scale battles I'm envisioning for Pathfinder, although whoever is zerging wins and I don't see a way around that
To be honest i think (and hope) they will be very different games. I haven't played GW2, but it seems to be purely themepark, while Pathfinder Online is going for sandbox with some themepark elements. What features exactly would you like to see in Pathfinder Online?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I hope to see public quest. Lots of people fighting for the same goal. I like not having to run around a quest hub gathering up a dozen quest
Well, there will be public quests. Just not in the same style you are thinking of. When war comes to Golarion (and it will lets be honest) everyone in a kingdom will get involved in one way or another.
So, in a sense, this is a public quest that no themepark MMO can even hope to accomplish.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Apples & Oranges.
Doubt GW will spend resources on quest chains in such a big way. Faction Wars will be more dimensional with economics an politics, not just combat as the aim?
GW2 looks v good and aim to get around to trying it, but imagine beginning of PfO will be v different. Although Themepark content dungeons, might be a few pointers for cross-reference. I liked Oblivion dungeons scattered for exploration a lot tbh in terms of finding them.
The closest thing to PvE dynamic events we might see in Pathfinder Online is how resource camps attract mobs and mob encampments growing out of control.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Maybe. But how often will there be wars? And add all the strategy and formations you want, realistically, its a matter of attrition. Zergers will win.
I don't think that the battles of Thermopylae or Salamis were unrealistic at all, but in all three cases large, well-supplied forces were defeated by a force a fraction of their strength.
If you were saying that the result of the game was simply a forgone conclusion, I think that I would rather trust the people who are designing it. They have indicated that tactics will be made more, not less, important with more characters.
Of course, there is really no counter to being outmatched, and one of the ways to be outmatched is to have fewer people.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The closest thing to PvE dynamic events we might see in Pathfinder Online is how resource camps attract mobs and mob encampments growing out of control.
Or how monster camps left unchecked will grow over time and bled into other hexes. Or how dungeons will spawn and you need to be the first group to clear them out before another group gets the loot inside. Which seems more "dynamic" to me than water pipes being bombed and repaired for the hundredth time in a given day.
Least of all these are ideas brought up before they even have a game built, I'm sure Ryan and Co. have more plans in mind.
The most important aspect of what GW is going for when it comes to PvE is how it affects you. Losing or decreasing the effectiveness of your resource camps and settlements means people will actually care about the Environment. It isn't a forever going cicle that doesn't bear any meaning to you or the world around you, like it seems to be in GW2.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Oh god, I hope PFO will NOT be like GW2. I've played several hours now but I just can't get into it. Somehow it's even MORE themepark-oriented than other themepark-MMOS, which is kind of crazy.
You have these heart events, spawnpoints, points of interest and vistas. And you just... Kind of work through the points marked on your map. Crafting is really time-consuming and in my opinion useless.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Oh god, I hope PFO will NOT be like GW2. I've played several hours now but I just can't get into it. Somehow it's even MORE themepark-oriented than other themepark-MMOS, which is kind of crazy.
You have these heart events, spawnpoints, points of interest and vistas. And you just... Kind of work through the points marked on your map. Crafting is really time-consuming and in my opinion useless.
See I couldn't get into it really for a week but I have been playing every now and then and its not bad. Its Theme park true but that doesn't make it bad. It certainly isn't the big deal GW2 fanboys have been kicking it up to be for over the last year but I like it as a time waster.
The crafting on the other hand I really like. I enjoy the recipe discover mechanic, most of all since I'm a cook on my main. As for a waste of time? Hardly. Its where I get all my gear. My friend sends me daggers and I make all my own cloth armor and jewelry.
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Goblin Squad Member
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IMO, GW2 is currently the best MMO out there.
One thing I would like to see in PFO from GW2 is the fact that world events change the place where you are and they aren't one dimensional but evolve into several chains with forks along the way. I have no idea how Goblin Works can do it but I hope they will.
The crafting system is also very nice (for a theme park game) and the graphics are awesome.
Yeah, GW2 has done a lot of things right, it looks very polished and good to see a themepark mmorpg that finally deserves at least some of the hype.
Regarding the DE's: The way ArenaNet has done these, takes a lot of resources. So we'll not likely see that approach from GW. What they've said however is almost as, if not more, compelling to my mind:
1. Hex States: So wild hexes will be overrun with mobs and need fight back in the frontier wilderness
2. Player settlement progression will actively change the spawn of mobs and dungeons
3. Hexes will produce non-uniform distribution of resources required in settlement construction
4. pve&pvp integrated so factions will actually feel like different kingdoms/lands/customs not just npc's/mobs acting as if the land is different.
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So GW2 is like a beautiful painting (their artists are awesome) with very scripted/particular quest chains/linked with lore stories which are proabably very cool a few times around. Compare this to PfO's modular hex design and it's very different: I think the modular approach has MORE potential for emergent gameplay however so more excited by that system combined with contracts flexibility to produce a quest/job system that leads to players involved in even more epic adventures over time as a result?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I cannot help but feel some people have missed the point.
There are 4 main categories players fall into: Combat, Social, Crafting, and Explorers. You add vistas and points of interest to appeal to explorers who want to see the world. You have recipes so crafters get to have some added fun, and those systems work. Crafting and exploring award experience, as do even getting resources, so you have people progressing doing what they really like to.
I like Guild Wars, my first real MMO, and it does not feel like a grind to me. Why? I can level in World v World, or I can craft for it, or I can do some of my story. I can be level 20 on a character, but if I say "hey I want to get some real PvP going" I can enter the PvP arena and it makes me 80th level. The level moving (up or down based on area and event) makes it so even going back to old areas can be a challenge.
World v World is what I would like to think of as the ground work for Goblin Works siege warfare very partially. I imagine siege weapons will be built elsewhere, or more slowly, and that people will be in formation style setups but it has otherwise impressed me. Small groups have taken huge amounts of influence taking small supply camps and ambushing reinforcements trying to assist points.
Things will only likely go up from here and this encourages me. The fact I do not have to pay monthly is also a great thing, although a monthly cost does not bother me if it is worth it. There is a lot of good from GW2 and I am hoping we take note of that and put it to use.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I cannot help but feel some people have missed the point.
There are 4 main categories players fall into: Combat, Social, Crafting, and Explorers.
I think it's useful as a way of thinking about things, but I don't think it's the full picture: eg
1.A player might be a range between these with a dabble of some with combat eg, or required by game design to "explore" so they can "combat".
2. So I'm never interested in crafting in themepark, I'm there to hack n' slash ideally in pvp because the "mobs aka other players" are more interesting. Whereas the one time I've been amazed by crafting is minecraft and I'd craft my heart out:
"Everyone's on my ass to play Minecraft" :)
3. If the economy is really deep, I might switch to empire building ala 4X style of play and use cash generated to fuel my empire mongering... That sounds equally appealling if more "work" required.
So although useful, I'm sorta of the inclination that players are more flexibible than the above and it's more the game design/rules that dictates how much one interacts. Combat is popular perhaps more because it releases adrenaline and excitement rather than a hard and fast category. Which is what games do very well and why people pick games over another activity for that intention?
4. Roguelikes appeal for exploration the most I've found, because you have your little bubble of progress which needs balancing very carefully not biting off too much or too little, but taking your chances and seeing what's around the next corner: That powerup that's gonna save your ass or some awesome mob it's time to hit the panic button. Mmorpgs seem great (3d ones) at creating beautiful pictures, but without minimal interaction. I know GW2 some some great exploration areas (platforms, hidden tunnels, swimming etc) so it's increasing that sense of "next corner" exploration, but many mmorpgs themepark turn into follow the breadcrumb to maximize level/grind. If an mmo had superlative exploration, eg Age Of Exploration style (!!) I'd be on the high seas charting new lands etc in flash. :) Again the "map" problem of mmos reduces real exploration "Scott Of The Antartic" style. :(
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In terms of GW2, there's some good things I've seen, but the categories probably work in this game "more" because it is themepark and each does not interact that much with the other eg pve is cut from pvp and factions in wvw (with sieges) are cut from economy and conquest and commerce.
So perhaps categories emerge more cut and dry in that situation? Possibly they'll be more diffuse & diverse in a sandbox?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I agree with the above...while I am really enjoying GW2 now (can't beat the pricing scheme) it is definitely a themepark...and clearly illustrates the difference between a themepark and a sandbox with those options. In GW2 you can level with any combination of Combat, Social, Crafting, and Exploring. Compared to other themeparks this seems like a smorgasbord of options. However, one could also consider the fact that these options are the options because the devs of GW2 have created it so...what if I wanted to be a Merchant? Spy? Climber? Spelunker? Baker, Poison Maker, Banker, Assassin, Ship Builder, Stone Mason, Architect, etc...in my opinion, the longer the list of things you can be is, the more of a sandbox the game is. In GW2, you can be those 4 things you mentioned, PFO is trying to get past that by making leveling independent of what you enjoy...so that leaves you only the things you enjoy for you to do. Why after all, would you do anything else? I do not think PFO will progress to the point of all the options found in RL or even PnP Pathfinder...but any improvement over our current choices will be appreciated by me.
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I need a game that is a mixture of DAoC, WoW, and War.
I'd like to see a game that's more like Pirates of the Burning Sea with a bit more WoW thrown in. But not so much WoW as just "standard" MMO. Basically, PotBS with an extended scope - equally able to be more character-focused and "zoom out" to potentially kingdom(/duchy/barony/march/etc.)-oriented.
Ideally, I think it'd be great for it to be equally viable for a player to never bother with the kingdom building as to focus almost exclusively on it. That extreme may be a bit out of the range of possibility at present, but I think it would make for a most singular gaming experience.Just some spontaneous, disorganized thoughts at the moment...
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Goblin Squad Member
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GW2 has no real economy - it is just as much a Themepark as all the other mainstream fantasy MMOs out there.
Public questing has been done in Warhammer Online, and while being nice at first it gets old fast.
Zerging is king when distance doesn't matter and farming kills is all there is to do.
I don't get these "quest-chains" and what's so special here. These are entirely pre generated questlines just as in WoW with the only exception that these will get regular updates - what am I missing?
So no, I do see nothing, game mechanics wise, in GW2 that I would lable a "must have" for PFO as I see nothing really new.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I haven't played it, but a couple in my gaming group is really excited about the game. Apparently there's a good RP server, and they keep trying to entice me to join.
There's apparently a segment in the start of the game where you answer questions and develop your character's back-story. That sounds incredibly awesome to me. Also you can customize the character's town clothing and adventuring gear right away, using colors you like. It was cool to see screenshots of their characters dressed in the national colors of their country in our Kingmaker game. ^_^ Also, players are able to swap abilities from one set of armor or equipment onto the physical appearance of another. I know this has already been done in Aion and other MMOs, I just like it, is all. Customization can make a game feel so much more immersive, imho.
My friends really seem to enjoy the world events, though I remember those being a thing in Runes of Magic and personally being largely underwhelmed. Maybe these are more dynamic or appealing, though? I am only working on second-hand information.
The character appearance customization seems pretty basic, unfortunately, but I'm going over to my friend's house tomorrow to play with it anyway. I swear, if more games released the character generation portion of their games for free or at minimal cost, I would easily wind up buying twice as many games...
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Oh god, I hope PFO will NOT be like GW2. I've played several hours now but I just can't get into it. Somehow it's even MORE themepark-oriented than other themepark-MMOS, which is kind of crazy.
You have these heart events, spawnpoints, points of interest and vistas. And you just... Kind of work through the points marked on your map. Crafting is really time-consuming and in my opinion useless.
The resounding message I've heard around the internet is that if you play this way (moving from map event to map event), you're missing out on the core of the GW2 experience. Exploration is the goal, and if you put the map down, there are lots of fun things to discover and participate in.
Haven't checked in here for awhile mainly because I've been playing gw2 with a great group of WvWvW focused people. Currently sitting at #1 server rank in the game world. That is beside the point, just thought I'd offer some comments from my own perspective.
First and foremost, WvW. My humble opinion is that it is unrivaled in today's mmo market. The main reason is obviously the large scale battles with multiple objectives and strategies. But here is where I differ in opinion from others, and my guild proves every day. This is the anti zerg game. A well planned attack from a small force of 10-20 people will easily take any keep/tower/garrison/castle from disorganized defenders even if those defenders vastly outnumber the attackers. And the reverse is true. A group of 5 well armed people can defend any objective indefinitely if they know what, and where to use siege.
It is set up so that open warfare or "farming" kills will put you at a disadvantage to completing the over goal. There is literally zero point to it when the penalty for death is a mere click to spawn and run right back into battle a moment later, you will get nowhere fast trying to kill off the enemy. We spend a lot of time moving around to avoid combat, not engaging just for the sake of killing.
A zerg that moves from place to place destroying anything in their path will be quickly back capped from a smaller force once they leave, or shut down by a smaller group that can pinch them in choke points and wipe them out through smart play.
While I do see areas of concern and lots they could improve upon, in all honesty it is the kind of tactical warfare I've been looking for, for ages. One where strategy and execution wins.
I "should" just end it there, cause that is where my love for the game ends. The pve side is a casuals dream themepark of bland mediocrity, that starts with the lack of race/profession choices up to endgame mechanics that are the same stand here/ dont stand here and dps drivel that we have seen since WoW created it. Where everyone can collect cute pets and farm their life away on dungeons runs for trivial cosmetic outfits.
And I wont start on the technical flaws, missing functionality that should be standard practice these days, or business model affecting design and ... no cause that will just foul up my good mood.