Idea for a rogue boost--and borrowed from the monk, no less!

[Revan]

I know, my title must seem like I'm in the mouth of madness, but hear me out:

I've often found the monk's situational BAB somewhat irksome. I can see the appeal, but I also feel like, since it boosts their base attack for everything except standard action attacks, one might as well give them a full BAB. And yet, irksome as I find it, I think it has a conceptual appeal for the other weakest class in D&D, the rogue.

What if we made an addition to the sneak attack line, stating that the rogue used a full attack bonus when attacking an opponent he flanks, who is denied their Dexterity bonus, or who is suffering from an impairing condition such as sickened? It seems to me it would further encourage rogues to fight dirty, prey on the weak, and take advantage of positioning, and give them a boost in combat even when they can't bring their bonus damage into play.

Too much? Not enough? Solving the wrong problem?

[Da'ath]

Here's a thread from about a year ago that Cheapy started with some similarities: Click Here.

I believe there's mention of full bab in there, along with some talents to take advantage of conditions and make their sneak attack damage more relevant.

[proftobe]

to me the issue with rogues isn't that they aren't hitting, but that their talents aren't very good this coupled with archetypes of other classes being able to do everything a rogue can do while still having other class powers(vivesectionist SA, Archeologist traps, rangers scout, and the in general bard/ranger ability to skill monkey almost as well)

to me the main rogue nerfs are the collapse of the skill list from 3.x to PF combined with the way that traps aren't TPK's anymore. I think that the ninja was a move in the right direction(and they make awesome roguish characters) My opinion is that rogues only really need slightly better talents and a mechanic similar to the ninja's ki(I can't remember where I read it first but someone called them panache points) and talents that fit these new panache abilities.

[Cheapy]

Thanks Da'ath. Yea, there's a full BAB discussion in there. I tried it out a few times, and did the math a bunch more. I was not happy with the results and so I recommend not doing that. IIRC, their damage got waaay too close to a two-handing fighter for my comfort.

Plus, from a thematic standpoint, the rogue isn't meant to be a primary fighter, and primary fighters get the full BAB.

[Da'ath]

No problem. It was a great post. I ultimately dropped the Full BAB, as well, but continue to use some of the talents listed in the thread.

Running the math, as Cheapy did, every +1 point to hit is an increase in overall damage and with the sneak attack dice and certain talents (custom or otherwise), it can get out of hand really quick.

I still use the version of Vicious Opportunist in my post on the page, but spelled out in text which conditions it affected and limited it to only those conditions.

[Cheapy]

I just like thinking less about which conditions work :)

[Da'ath]

Cheapy wrote:

I just like thinking less about which conditions work :)

It is a bit of a pain in the butt.

[Azaelas Fayth]

Really a Rogues problem is there is most of their talents aren't any good. They really need reworked.

I am planning to release my home rules as a campaign setting. The problem is most of them would require me to pretty much release most of the rules under most classes...

[gnomersy]

Rogue problems in my opinion are pretty broad, they have poor talents they generally wish to go down the dex+TWF route but get hammered with extra penalties to hit on their 3/4 BAB and the fact that all their damage is concentrated in Sneak attack which in smaller groups can be all but impossible to use for more than 1 attack per round. This makes them extremely swing-y in combat and say what you will all characters should have a good combat use, no other class just throws that into the trash to get out of combat nifties so the Rogue shouldn't either.

Honestly for me the problem in combat is Sneak Attack so much of their kit is built and designed around a situational ability and I don't really think it's a good setup to try to balance.

Out of combat it's mediocre talents which aren't desirable and the condensation of the skill list which means that most people have everything important covered with 4-6 skills per level.

[Ascalaphus]

Compare rogue talents to hexes. Hexes are worth the Extra Hex feat. Rogue talents aren't, but they should have been.

Me, I'm taking a different track: giving rogues some bonus feats. Probably at level 1, 4, 8, 12, 16, 20. Although that's still up in the air. To be selected from this list, and ignoring prerequisites:

LEVEL 1
Blind-Fight
[Bludgeoner]
Catch Off-Guard
Combat Expertise
Combat Reflexes
Dodge
Mobility
Disorienting Maneuver
Enforcer
Fleet
Improved Unarmed Strike
Sap Adept
Nimble Moves
Point-Blank Shot
Quick Draw
Run
Step Up
[Sure Grasp]
Throw Anything

Acrobatic
Alertness
Athletic
Cosmopolitan
Deceitful
Persuasive
[Prodigy]
Self-Sufficient
Stealthy

LEVEL 4
Close-Quarters Thrower
Acrobatic Steps
Parting Shot
Precise Shot
Shot on the Run
[Stage Combatant] (note the Weapon Focus requirement though)

I intentionally left off Improved Initiative and Weapon Finesse. I wanted to allow rogues the head start needed to use other good feats like Gang Up (by taking Combat Expertise), rather than starting off the bonus feats with "must-have" feats; the idea is that not everyone would always select the same bonus feat from this list.

[Azaelas Fayth]

My take is increase the uses per day or benefit of the talent. Or allow the talent to be taken multiple times. Such as Combat Trick. It opens up many possibilities. And can make some abilities worth it.

And the problem most people have is they view the Rogue as a form of Front Line Combatant. Now don't get me wrong they can be FLCs, BUT such a Rogue requires a good build. Most say it requires System Mastery. If that is so how come a brand new player. Never even heard of D&D until she started playing Pathfinder build a Rogue that can hold her own without any support? At level 4 no less! Their party has 3 members: her Rogue, archery Ranger, and a Bard. No archetypes.

Most Rogues fall into thinking they only get their Sneak Attack when Flanking. When they get it whenever their foe is Flat-Footed. Improved Feint and a maxed out Bluff can ensure this against most enemies.

[Cheapy]

Never make combat trick able to be taken multiple times with no limit. It just turns them into a fighter.

Azaelas, the issue is that flanking is the only consistent way to get sneak attack damage. Feinting is great and works wonderfully against those enemies who can be feinted. Until you get a second attack, and then you're still stuck with just one attack, when Mr. Flanker is getting two. Plus, flanking is one of the main ways to raise your to-hit chance significantly for multiple attacks. Feinting is nice, but I recall doing the math of the average difference between flat-footed and non-flatfooted ACs of CR 10 enemies, and it amounts to about 1 point, if that.

[Azaelas Fayth]

I was meaning raising the limit of times.

And you are forgetting your average Rogue (no archetypes) doesn't get that second attack until Level 8. That is 7 levels where a Rogue doesn't really suffer from Feinting. On top of that if you are fighting a single enemy and can't flank them... well then you really must not be trying very hard.

And 1 point is still a 5% better chance. I can tell you 5% can be the difference in a lot of things.

[Cheapy]

No I'm not. They can get rapid shot and TWF earlier, as well as some can get natural attacks :)

[Azaelas Fayth]

... hmm... that does cause things to get wonky... Though that does go into the thematic rather than optimized territory.

Though a Ranged build has many options for getting Sneak Attack through tactics. More than a Melee build by far.

[Revan]

Mmm, thinking it over again, my main problem with giving rogues situational BAB is that they'd get extra attacks when sneak attacking, which isn't really my intention. I just thought to emphasize a rogue's talent for getting in cheap shots, making them better able to take advantage of vulnerable opponents.

I guess my goal might be better accomplished by some new rogue talents. Say...

Fight Dirty
The rogue gains Improved Dirty Trick as a bonus feat. When performing Dirty Trick maneuvers, the rogue uses his HD in place of her BAB to calculate her CMB.

Cunning Ambush
When the rogue makes a sneak attack, she may attempt a Dirty Trick maneuver as part of the attack. A rogue must have the Fight Dirty rogue talent to select this talent.

Cheap Shot
Opponents suffering from the dazzled, deafened, entangled, shaken, frightened, panicked, sickened, nauseated, and stunned are denied their Dexterity bonus to AC against the Rogue's attacks. The rogue must be at least 6th level to select this talent.

[Da'ath]

One of the things I did for rogue, which I haven't seen a problem for yet in my campaign was to add "Guile" the the rogue class features at 1st level.

Guile: At 1st level, for the purpose of the Dirty Trick and Steal Combat Maneuvers, the rogue's base attack bonus from his rogue class levels is equal to his rogue level. For all other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, the rogue uses his normal base attack bonus.

Due to the addition of another talent written by Cheapy (we're using a modified version of his original), this has made things very interesting.

[Revan]

That Cheap Shot talent I posted above should probably also require the other two talents as prerequisites, to even it out with the Shatter Defenses feat. The balance I'm trying to strike is that Cheap Shot is more accessible for Rogues, because it lacks the BAB prerequisite, and is broader in the conditions that allow sneak attack, but a slightly lessened effect--the opponent loses their Dex bonus, rather than being flat-footed, so the rogue can't combo Cheap Shot with the Sap Master line, for example.