|
Creativity and clarity. First, I own a lot of scenarios and not one of them gives such an ultimatum that there is only one approach. The closest is one that claims that if the players choose to use a particular skill and fails then the npc attacks...in which case the players could opt to subdue andcapture, etc.
The Midnight Mauler has such a faction mission. Fail the check and your PC is not allowed to try anything else to accomplish the mission.
I also found one in The Temple of Empyreal Enlightenment.
|
|
Robert -- If you don't want to wear a magical shirt, then don't. It's not a requirement to play the game.
If that's not condescending... anyways, that's not the point Chris, and I am fully aware that you don't need the shirt to play.
All I was implying that most of the Faction Shirt are currently unavailable in a lot of sizes and if you had one in another size and its too snug after a couple of washes or just too big could you display it in another fashion. I also know about the character folio. Society is about having fun and I find rules lawyering over semantics is kinda stupid and I know, my opinion. Regardless another roll for a botched chance sometimes is an opportunity not to be missed. And if the Shirts are truly magical then I shall use mine as a whip and put thy smackdown on no good line steppers.
Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
|
Creativity and clarity. First, I own a lot of scenarios and not one of them gives such an ultimatum that there is only one approach.The Midnight Mauler has such a faction mission. Fail the check and your PC is not allowed to try anything else to accomplish the mission.
** spoiler omitted **
I also found one in The Temple of Empyreal Enlightenment.
GMs do also misread the scenario. The example I know best (because it was the first faction point I failed to get when I was just starting out in PFS) is the Shadow Lodge faction mission in Quest for Perfection Part I.
Retrieving and deciphering the journal earns Shadow Lodge faction PCs 1 Prestige Point.
My GM read that as requiring the DC check (which is pretty unlikely for a 1st-level character unless they are a skill-monkey class). I didn't know any better at the time. If I were GMing the scenario myself I would allow re-rolls (or Take 20) if the character had points in the skill (it is trained-only), which would be an automatic success. There is also no requirement for secrecy, so if there was any other player in the party with training in the skill they could help. And, finally, I would allow what my character did - take the object back to Absalom and use the Pathfinder library - to succeed.
|
|
Because after many,many, many lengthy discussions on the topic, campaign staff has chosen to not change the wording, even in the most recent version of the guide published a couple of weeks ago.
Was something specific said about this by campaign staff or is that just an observation?
If it's the latter, this could easily just be something that hasn't seemed important enough to date, or possibly not noticed at all.
Otherwise, can you link/post what they said?
|
Creativity and clarity. First, I own a lot of scenarios and not one of them gives such an ultimatum that there is only one approach. The closest is one that claims that if the players choose to use a particular skill and fails then the npc attacks...in which case the players could opt to subdue andcapture, etc.The Midnight Mauler has such a faction mission. Fail the check and your PC is not allowed to try anything else to accomplish the mission.
** spoiler omitted **
I also found one in The Temple of Empyreal Enlightenment.
Actually the Midnight Mauler's faction quests read similarly to most faction quests, assuming the most obvious skill a player will use to acieve it, but it does not state that they have to go that route. Temple was actually the scenario I was referring to when it said a failed skill would cause the attack, but even that could be circumvented in a variety of ways. Those should be viewed as the most common ways, but they are not the only way that could go down. For instance, I'll useTemple since you are clearly familiar with it, I had an Andoran player who instead of convincing his fella to go back with him through Diplomacy, used the guy's love of meditation to trick him to go use the amulet. A GM needs to be adaptive.
|
|
I was talking about the Qadira mission, which says it can only be tried once.
Also, the Andoran mission has nothing to do with Diplomacy. You must mean the Silver Crusade mission.
Of course. I do still tend to mispeak myself-a holdover from the need to convert 2nd season faction quests to 3rd. :). Appparently common since you also mispoke your Qadiran mission as Sczarni, originally (Although Sczarni does convert to Cheliax.). I will assume you do mean Qadira, rather than the original Sczarni quest you referenced. In the Qadiran case you must preserve a flower. However, there 3 such flowers in the scenario...and again, party members can assist or the process of preservation does take time (I do it in real life) and taking your time (i.e. taking ten or twenty) does improve your chance for success. Or hire an expert NPC to do it.
|
|
I'm having a hard time understanding you as the only mission in ToEE involving flowers is the Shadow Lodge mission with the fountain that is activated by celestial blood.
The Qadiran mission is to retrieve the glass orb from the fresco in the meditation room, and specifically says the PC must succeed on a Disable Device check to avoid breaking the orb, and that the check may only be tried once. Take 20 is not allowed due to the consequences of failure, and there are no NPCs inside the Hao Jin tapestry to hire.
Are you perhaps thinking of a different mod?
|
|
First, I'm on a nook, so these quote commands can be cumbersome qnd difficult for me. I will type it.
No, my mappings are not wrong, but perhaps you are not seeing what I am seeing. Here are the conversations.
I write...
Creativity and clarity. First, I owm a lot of scenarios and not one of them gives such an ultimatum that there is only one approach.
Notice I say "approach"; not "skill check roll". However, even assuming I did say skill check roll...
TOZ writes...
The Midnight Mauler has such a faction mission. Fail the check and your PC is not allowed to try anything else to accomplish the mission...the Sczarni mission to be precise.
MM Notes on Sczarni quest...
Convincing the duplicitous merchant requires more than just money; PCs must succeed at a DC 20 Diplomacy or Intimidate check to convince the killer to take the job. This check may only be attempted once per PC...
Notice that with every PC in the group, that is several tries and assists and T10 or T20. In my book, knock him out and then prep the scene to get oodles of bonuses.
But, I write....
Actually the Midnigt Mauler's faction quests read similarly to most faction quests, assuming the most obvious skill will be used to achieve it, but it does not state tthat you have to go that route.
TOZ writes...
I was talking about the Qadira mission which says it can only be tried once.
Midnight Mauler's Notes on Qadira quest...
Qadira faction PCs need to bring back a preserved sample of an xtabay for study. This requires a successful DC 15 Craft (alchemy) or Knowledge (nature) check to preserve one of the dead blossoms without damaging its alchemical properties.
Nowhere does it state you only get onetry, so I write...
In the Qadiran case you must preserve a flower. However there 3 such flowers in the scenario...
Then TOZ writes...
The Sczarni mission happens in Midnight Mauler, the Qadira mission happens in ToEE. I'm having a hard time understanding you as the only quest in ToEE is the Shadow Lodge mission...the Qadiran mission is to retrieve the glass orb...and specifically says the PC must succeed on a Disable Device check to avoid breaking the orb, and that the check may only be tried once...
Come again? First, why on Earth would I bring in a Shadow Lodge quest whenwe are discussing Sczarni and Qadira? Second, if TOZ was switching the modules who should've clarified this. The ToEE conversation was as follows...
I write...
Tempe was actually the scenario I was referring to when I said a failed skill would cause the attack...I then made the Andoran example.
TOZ then writes...
The Andoran mission has nothing to do with Diplomacy. You must mean the Silver Crusade.
I acknowledge the error and observe his own Sczarni/Qadira mistake. TOZ then switches what module he is referring to.
But for the sake of argument and clarity, I will make one final point regard the attitude of finality with faction quests and present a single alternative approach. I will use the debated ToEE Qadiran quest...
ToEE Notes on Qadiran quest...
Removing the fragile glass sphere from the narrow compartment without breaking it requires a DC 15 Disable Device check...(this skill check can be made untrained, but may only be attempted once).
The purpose of parenthesis is to set a separate thought apart. If the single check applied to all PCs it would not have been in parenthesis; but it is, tied to the unskilled statement, attaching it firmly and specifcally to it. Disable Device is a trained skill only. An untrained person would not be able to tell when they were putting the sphere in danger like a trained person would and stop moving it in time. Only allowing one check for an untrained character is the compromise as opposed to not allowing any. A trained character could proceed as normal.
One proposed alternate route...
Egg roll it! In ToEE you have all the time in the world. Wait to the end and then build a padded, scooped ramp placing a padded container, such as a wide-mouthed pouch, at the end and then gently roll it down.
To JohnF, I acknowledge that T10 doesn't take technical game time, but it does have to be non-combat and stress-free, insinuating the ability to relax and slow down in order to take your time.
And with that, I bid this thread adieu.
|
|
I acknowledge the error and observe his own Sczarni/Qadira mistake. TOZ then switches what module he is referring to.
No, you missed the fact that my previous post was entirely about ToEE, in response to the tail end of you last reply. I can see how you were confused since I was speaking obliquely to avoid unhidden spoilers in the general discussion forum.
You then launched into the Qadira mission from MM, which involves flowers. Since the only mission in ToEE that involves flowers is the Shadow Lodge mission, I ask if that is what you were referring to.
The purpose of parenthesis is to set a separate thought apart. If the single check applied to all PCs it would not have been in parenthesis; but it is, tied to the unskilled statement, attaching it firmly and specifcally to it. Disable Device is a trained skill only. An untrained person would not be able to tell when they were putting the sphere in danger like a trained person would and stop moving it in time. Only allowing one check for an untrained character is the compromise as opposed to not allowing any. A trained character could proceed as normal.
Since the text does not say 'failing the check causes the orb to be broken' I believe I can agree with your assessment of this mission. I believe the 'without breaking it' line to be misleading and should have been left out completely.
Notice that with every PC in the group, that is several tries and assists and T10 or T20. In my book, knock him out and then prep the scene to get oodles of bonuses.
When I ran the MM at PaizoCon, all four PCs present failed the check. I don't know what good knocking the assassin out would do any of them in that situation.