Pathfinder E6: Your extra feats?

[Peter J]

If anyone out there has ever run a Pathfinder version of E6, what kinds of extra feats did you houserule in? Restoration is pretty essential, and Stone to Flesh and Neutralize Poison are up there too. How about capstone feats, or expanded casting, hit points or skill points?

[Helaman]

I use E7.

IF using the Step System then once past 7th level, the player chooses from a choice of 1 skill point or 1 hit point after the first session, takes a skill point or hit point for the second session (whatever was not picked in the first session) and after the third session chooses a feat.Full Casting Classes that gain access to 4th level spells at 7th level instead can either use the spell slot for Meta Magic enhanced spells or for a bonus spell slot for any spell level they have access to. 3/4 BAB classes such as the bard or inquisitor, that normally would gain access to 3rd level magic, instead can either use the spell slot for Meta Magic enhanced spells or for a bonus spell slot for any spell level they have access to.

Those choosing to multi-class at 7th level cannot gain 3rd or 4th level spells OR a second attack even if the class level or BAB would normally allow for such if they do not already have access. To multi-class at 7th level they must have first taken a level of another class between levels 2 and 6.

Those who have been exclusive in their class choice can buy feats as if they were 8th level in their class once they hit 7th level. They can also buy any other class features (including Domain or School abilities), normally available at level 8 as a feat. Sorcerers can buy their 9th level Bloodline power (without enhancement to existing bloodline powers).

Prestige classes are only available at 7th level (assuming prerequisites are met) and allow class features (not saves, BAB or spell increases) to be be purchased as feats, the character counting as having only one level in the Prestige Class. Class Features that allow improvement of caster level cannot be purchased. Prestige Class Features beyond level 2 cannot be purchased either.

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Characters who reach their 7th level as a single class, can choose to buy individual level 8 class features as feats. Sorcerers can buy their level 9 bloodline power as a feat without it enhancing their level 3 bloodline power.

Additionally they eligible to purchase feats as if they were 8th level (and BAB+8 for Warriors).

Characters who choose to use their 7th level to enter a prestige class can choose to buy individual class features as feats, however their effective level will be level 1 when determining Prestige Class feature durations and effects.

Those who do not use single class progression and do not choose to enter a prestige class at level 7 gain access to an ‘Epic’ feat on earning level 7.

Additional feats are also available as ‘Epic’ feats, only available after level 7.

Ability Training (General)
You spend time honing one of your Abilities: Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma.
Benefit: Choose one Ability; treat that Ability as having a +2 bonus to that Ability Score whenever you are making an Ability Check. This bonus does not count when making a skill check or for any other use of that ability.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times, its effects do not stack. Each time you take this feat it applies to another ability.

Ability Advancement (General)
Your training pays off, and one of your Abilities increases.
Prerequisite: Ability Training in the same ability.
Benefit: Choose one Ability. You gain a permanent +2 bonus to that ability. This bonus does not stack with the benefit from Ability Training.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times, its effects do not stack. Each time you take this feat it applies to another ability.

Expanded Spell Stamina (Metamagic)
Prerequisites: Character Level 7th
Benefit: You gain 1 or more new spell slots, with spell levels totaling to half of your caster level. Treat 0th level spells as ½. Thus, a sixth level Wizard could gain one 3rd level slot, one 1st and one 2nd level slot, three 1st level slots, or 6 0th-level slots. This feat cannot provide spell slots higher than you can already cast.
Special: You may only take this feat once.

Legendary Skill (General)
Prerequisites: Character Level 7th
Benefit: Pick a class skill. Your max ranks rise from 7 to 9

Skill Training (General)
Prerequisites: Character level 7th
Benefit: Gain 4 skill points to spend on any skill or skills. Class skill benefits and overall skill rank maximums still apply.
Special: Class, Favored class or Intelligence bonuses do not apply.

Ritual Magic (Metamagic)
Prerequisite: Ability to cast level 3 spells. Specialisation in the School or Domain of Magic of the desired spell. Spell Focus Feat for the School of the desired spell. 17+ in the spell casters primary attribute.

Benefit: Using this feat your character can learn GM approved level 4 or even level 5 spells. Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Each spell is on a case by case basis and the GM will likely include a greatly increased casting time, expensive components or specific locations as part of the requirements.

[Helaman]

I use the no 2nd attack and no 4th level spell thing (or 3rd for 3/4 BAB caster) because it keeps the orginal premise of E6 where only martials got the 2nd attack and only full casters had access to 3rd level spells AND it allows for a logical BAB progress of

+7/+5/+3 where as E6 is +6/+4/+3

[Doug OBrien]

Thanks for starting this thread, Peter J, I've been thinking about getting some leg work done on an E7 campaign over the last week and was going to eventually post the same question.

[Greg Wasson]

There are a couple of good threads

E6 stuff

and

More E6 stuff

You will note Helaman always posts good info concerning E6.

I still want to run/play an E6, but both of my groups each have a "NEVER!HERESY! BURN, GREG, BURNNNNN!!!" kind of player in them. And as the others are "meh" about it, I do not see it happening.

Strange though, for my main group, they all wish we could take more time at the lower levels before advancing. O.o

So very tempted to just sneak E6 on them without telling them.

Greg

[Ascalaphus]

dot

[Feral]

I would love to play in an E6 campaign. =/

Anyone running one in the So Cal area?

[Hitdice]

I run E8 games, just cause I figured my players deserved an ability score increase if they're going to being playing low level characters for ever and ever.

Rather than handling higher level magic through feats we went for ritual casting through skills; there's a bunch of 3PP ritual systems out there, and at this point I don't even know which one our house rules are closest to...

Hit points and skill points aren't really an issue as we handle those through the existing feats (Toughness and Skill focus) and the max for class skills and Hit Dice is sort of a hard cap for game play.

[Feral]

E6 is nice because it lets full BAB classes stand apart from 3/4 BAB folks better (the difference between having a second attack and not).

That said, 8 is still a decent stopping point. Anything around that level is good, as long as you don't let people get 9th. 5th level spells is when the game starts imploding.

[Fake Healer]

Dot.

[Helaman]

Greg Wasson wrote:

There are a couple of good threads

E6 stuff

and

More E6 stuff

You will note Helaman always posts good info concerning E6.

The posts I participated in earlier (and there is lots of great posters in those threads) helped me refine where I am with my E7 now.

The E6 advantage is that Martials do great at combat and full casters get level 3 spells. It just doesn't work quite right for Pathfinder, level 7 is a better spread of class features (though truth be told E8 is also a good break point for class features) and the level bonus feat.

Going to E7-8 allows 3/4 casters access to 3rd level spells (haste, fly etc)... and for me, I thought level 3 was the gravy and the best place to stop. So the question was - what to do with the level 4 (and in the case of the 3/4 casters, the level 3 slot). My answer was to use it as a floating spell slot much like the arcane focus bonus of the wizard. It ALSO brings the Sorcerer to parity with the wizard in the number of spells... but without the wizards bonus slot.

The martial thing? I desperately wanted only full Martials to get the 2nd iterative attack. My response was clunky - multi-classing wouldn't get them there. Fighter-Rogue I am looking at you. Awkward as it is, I made the 7th level the level that characters split into Prestige Classes, made their only class a sort of prestige class by giving them access to level 8 class features... and if multi-classing to get that +6 BAB? No 2nd attack... not sure if I want to revisit that as multi-classing at 7th does seem to be the weakest of the options.

[Hitdice]

Here's my thing, though, about E6-E8: you have to rethink Metamagic Feats, cause given the slot/level requirements, the high level PC spellcasters will never get to use said feats on their best spells.

Rather than worrying about the preparation and spell level slots, I let my players apply their feats to specific spells when they choose the feat. That is, if you take Maximized Fireball as a feat, Lightning Bolt will never be worth it again; it's like weapon focus or something.

[Fake Healer]

Hitdice wrote:

Here's my thing, though, about E6-E8: you have to rethink Metamagic Feats, cause given the slot/level requirements, the high level PC spellcasters will never get to use said feats on their best spells.

Rather than worrying about the preparation and spell level slots, I let my players apply their feats to specific spells when they choose the feat. That is, if you take Maximized Fireball as a feat, Lightning Bolt will never be worth it again; it's like weapon focus or something.

So maybe a good way to give metamagics without needing to expand spell slots would be to have the maximize feat apply to one spell, like Maximized Fireball? I kinda like that but I would rather see it more like when you take Maximize you choose one spell of each spell level up to -1 of maximum spell level to apply it to. That would be the prerequisite for a Maximized highest level spell.

So if you have 3rd level spells you take the first Maximize to get a 0-level, 1st-level, and a 2nd-level spell maximized. Then the next feat you get you could get Greater Maximize to apply to one 3rd level spell. You could work that in for all the metamagics too if you wanted.
I may actually do that, I like how that sounds.

[Kuraikumo]

Personally I'm running an E6 pathfinder game with a samurai kung fu theme. I've had to customize most of what I've done but the hardest part was sneaking in the alchemist. Because I'm running this with almost no magic.

All the healing in the game are either potions or weak class abilities. I'm also using the class defense bonus variant from 3.5's unearthed arcana in conjunction with armor as damage reduction variant from ultimate combat. So far it's been very interesting.

As for capstones I'm still working on them, I found this thread looking for ideas for exactly that. lol

[Ilja]

We do E7, no 4th level spells except as feats.

The only extra feats we use are:

High Magic:
Prerequisite: 4th level spell slot
Benefit: Choose a single 4th level spell. You learn that spell, but it's casting time is 10 times longer than normal (minimum 1 minute) and it has a material component worth 300 gp.
Special: You may take this feat several times. Choose a new spell each time.

Superhuman Skill
Prerequisite: 7 ranks in a skill
Benefit: Choose a skill which you have at least 7 ranks in. You gain a single rank in that skill. Additionally, once per day you may reroll a skill check in that skill.
Special: You may take this feat several times. It's effects stack, but you may not reroll a single skill check more than once with this ability.

Ritual Magic:
Prerequisite: Spellcraft 3 ranks or Caster Level 1
Benefit: You may craft rituals following the item creation rules outlines. Rituals take 1 day per 1000 gp in their costs and work like single-use items that are immediately triggered on completion. Knowledge of a ritual must be acquired somewhere to be able to craft it. The cost to craft a ritual is spell level * caster level * 12.5 gp (like a scroll).

EDIT: Kuraikumo, look at class abilities gained at 7 for capstones for level 6 - many classes get good abilities then. barbarians get DR 1/-, fighters get armor training 2, etc. Some are hard to implement (bards gaining 3rd level spells) and some classes don't get anything good at 7 but at 8 or 9 (Hi sorcerer!).

[LazarX]

Fake Healer wrote:

Hitdice wrote:

Here's my thing, though, about E6-E8: you have to rethink Metamagic Feats, cause given the slot/level requirements, the high level PC spellcasters will never get to use said feats on their best spells.

Rather than worrying about the preparation and spell level slots, I let my players apply their feats to specific spells when they choose the feat. That is, if you take Maximized Fireball as a feat, Lightning Bolt will never be worth it again; it's like weapon focus or something.

So maybe a good way to give metamagics without needing to expand spell slots would be to have the maximize feat apply to one spell, like Maximized Fireball? I kinda like that but I would rather see it more like when you take Maximize you choose one spell of each spell level up to -1 of maximum spell level to apply it to. That would be the prerequisite for a Maximized highest level spell.

So if you have 3rd level spells you take the first Maximize to get a 0-level, 1st-level, and a 2nd-level spell maximized. Then the next feat you get you could get Greater Maximize to apply to one 3rd level spell. You could work that in for all the metamagics too if you wanted.
I may actually do that, I like how that sounds.

When you start trying to shoehorn things like metamagic you're pretty much departing what the whole purpose of the E system was cooked up for. to limit the powers of player characters, especially spellcasters. I see the same problem when people keep pushing it past 6th level. As it is.. E6 Pathfinder makes for considerably more powerful characters than E6 3.5. They get more feats,and the base classes don't suck the way they used to.

[Ilja]

People have different tastes on where to put the power limit. Taking it to level 7, 8 or 9 clearly makes the characters more powerful than 6, but it's not like there is one clear purpose with which all must game.

That said, in the case of metamagic I agree - allowing metamagic on high-level (for e6) spells can really upset the balance if not done carefully. A way to do it in limited amounts is to allow a few 4th level spell slots - either by going to 7 or by giving them for feats. But allowing things like maximized fireballs or persistant slow will cause issues.

[Ilja]

On capstones for E6, I'd suggest letting each class choose between two different options.

Core classes:
Barbarian: DR 1/- or a the Clear Mind rage power
Bard: Dirge of Doom or Inspire Greatness
Cleric: Domain power normally gained at 8th level or a single 4th level spell slot that can be used for domain spells only (but no knowledge of 4th level spells)
Druid: Wild Shape 3/day (and new options as if 8th level) or A Thousand Faces
Fighter: Armor Training 2 or Weapon Training in an additional weapon group (no increase to the first weapon group).
Monk: Wholeness of Body or Improved Evasion
Paladin: Smite Evil 3/day or Aura of Resolve
Ranger: Woodland Stride or 2nd favored terrain
Rogue: Improved Uncanny Dodge or the Hide in Plain Sight advanced talent
Sorcerer: Bloodline power normally gained at level 9 or bloodline spell normally gained at level 7.
Wizard: School ability normally gained at 8th or a single 4th level spell slot that can be used for school spells only (but no knowledge of 4th level spells). If you're generalist, instead of the second choice, you can choose to select any 10 spells to add to your spellbook.

Other classes:
Alchemist: Poison Immunity or treat Int as 2 higher for extracts and bombs.
Cavalier: Greater Tactician or the order ability normally gained at 8th.
Gunslinger: Gun Training 2 or the Targeting deed.
Inquisitor: Judgement 3/day or Second Judgement
Magus: Improved Spell Combat or Medium Armor
Oracle: Revelation or the level 10 ability of your curse. Blackened curse adds Elemental Aura (fire only) instead of fire wall, haunted adds Fly instead of telekinesis.
Summoner: Transposition or choose a monster from the SM IV list; this type you can summon with your summon monster ability once per day (only uses a single use of your SM ability)
Witch: Either treat your familiar as if you where 11th level for purposes of abilities, base saves, base attack bonus, natural armor bonus and intelligence or the Hag's Eye major hex.

What do you people think? Would this be fair?