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I did read both, although apparently I focused on the wrong line for the ring. (The line I focused on was "Through study, the wearer can gain the knowledge of a single spell in addition to those allotted by her class and level." rather than "Thereafter, the arcane spellcaster may cast the spell as though she knew the spell and it appeared on her class’ spell list.") Kindly refrain from jumping to accusations.
Since you are bothering to make this argument, I am going to assume you have no real experience with UMD.
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Admittedly that came out more accusatory than I meant it. I was making more of an a observation, really. And frankly, that was the sort of question that indicates inexperience with UMD.
Tom, your replies about UMD show that you don't know its limits.
Using UMD to appear good to an item don't change/remove your original alignment. So using UMD you can convince the gate to work as if you were good, but in addition it still affect you as you were evil too.
You are in the same position of a half elf using a item that will help elves but harm human. You get both effects.
If you use your interpretation it would be possible to sue UMD ti convince a scroll of holy word that your evil rogue is good and so make it immune from the spell when cast.
You tried to patch your initial position changing how your example gate work:
Lets say the gate was worded like this - "For any good person, the gate will let them pass. Otherwise, if they are evil, the gate will vaporize them when they try." A Rogue can UMD the gate so that it treats them as good, and walk right through.
that could work if you interpret "pass" as activating the gate, depending on how the gate work, but I would require a better definition of the item operation. As written the rogue isn't activating the item at all, so it is a bit of a gray area if he can use UMD on it.
Again, your interpretation would have the rogue able to bypass a Forbiddance spell if generated by an item but not if cast by hand.
Check: You can use this skill to read a spell or to activate a magic item. Use Magic Device lets you use a magic item as if you had the spell ability or class features of another class, as if you were a different race, or as if you were of a different alignment.
You make a Use Magic Device check each time you activate a device such as a wand. If you are using the check to emulate an alignment or some other quality in an ongoing manner, you need to make the relevant Use Magic Device check once per hour.
You must consciously choose which requirement to emulate. That is, you must know what you are trying to emulate when you make a Use Magic Device check for that purpose. The DCs for various tasks involving Use Magic Device checks are summarized on the table below.
"You must consciously choose which requirement to emulate." and "The DCs for various tasks involving Use Magic Device checks are summarized on the table below."
That table hasn't a entry for "class" so you can't choose to emulate a class.
Again: being a divine spellcaster isn't a class feature.And I'm afraid you just confirmed my assumption.
You did even reiterate it, wile still being wrong.
The feature is spells. Not divine caster. There is no UMD ability that change the source of your spells.
The incense require you to be "a divine spellcaster", show me where the UMD table allow you to change the source of your spells.
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Lets say the gate was worded like this - "For any good person, the gate will let them pass. Otherwise, if they are evil, the gate will vaporize them when they try." A Rogue can UMD the gate so that it treats them as good, and walk right through.
Well if you’re going to go with a twisted unreasonable item description designed to let UMD bypass it why not just make it if you’re good or you can succeed on a DC xx UMD check you can pass. As written you’re trying to write in a loop hole for UMD to validate your point. As written the gate does not require a UMD check so you cannot UMD past anything.
The fact that you may have used UMD to let you pass an alignment restriction on an item that you should not be able to use UMD on does not give your argument “I got more experience so I am right” any more weight.
If your evil and you pick up a holy avenger you get a -1 level, if you use UMD you can use the sword to its fill effect but you retain the -1 level.
Below is the answer you seek even if you can UMD the spell knowledge page you cannot cast it unless it is on your spell list.
New Spells Known: If I gain the ability to add a spell that is not on my spell list to my list of spells known, without adding it to my spell list, can I cast it?
No. Adding a spell to your list of spells known does not add it to the spell list of that class unless they are added by a class feature of that same class. For example, sorcerers add their bloodline spells to their sorcerer spell list and oracles add their mystery spells to their oracle spell list. The spell slots of a class can only be used to cast spells that appear on the spell list of that class.
There needs to be a guide about UMD because I've seen a lot of people who are incredibly harsh to it. Even the devs.
To the naysayers on this topic. What is it that UMD should do?? Because you're completely negating one of it's uses, the alignment faking, and denying it most of it's other uses that are entirely legit.
Should it be, in your opinion, only usable for scrolls wands and staves (and even then not to fake cl or stats!!)
Si what is it that md can do that would make you happy??
I personally rule UMD very generously. I view it as the most powerful skill in the game. As written UMD can be game breaking. This is why Rings of Revelation were errata'd. As originally written, with specializing in UMD it was possible to get AC into the 40s or even 50s using Rings of Revelation for relatively cheap. In full disclosure, I had a character that took full advantage of this. Via a RoR with Time Sight (and getting moment of prescience) and then using that to boost UMD, I was able to to get a UMD check in the 70s for an effective oracle level in the 50s on the Air Barrier Revelation from a different ring. This gave a +26 armor bonus to AC. This was not even the most ridiculous combination. Using different rings you could have had a BAB in the 50s, as a 11th level character. Or you could channel as a 50th level life oracle. Needless to say the rings needed the errata. Opening up class features to UMD abuse was not the intent of the ring.
Now that the Rings of Recelation are out of the picture, I too would like to see a blog on what UMD can do and what is considered a "class feature". For example is being a member of a class as feature of being that class? (Can you UMD a holy avenger).
While that depiction might be considered by a vast majority as incredibly broken, I do not think those extreme exemples, easily handled by GM ruling, should affect the rest of the skill.
There is nothing game breaking about a bard casting fly or a sorcerer casting raise dead using his spell slots. This gives him variety, and it's a variety that had a hefty toll since he likely took a trait to get the skill and sorcerer's are skill shy which means he had to skimp on bluff diplomacy intimidate and such.
Then he had to pay for the page and then he even has to pay the 5000 go price tag on raise dead for a spell he doesn't cast that often.
There is a time for harsh ruling but I do not think that pages of spell knowledge are it and I do not think that the power of umd should be an immediate no Everytime someone tries something.
In an effort to simply the discussion, let's leave UMD aside for a moment.
1. Could a sorcerer 1/oracle 10 with a page of spell knowledge (fireball) cast fireball using an oracle spell slot?
2. Could a wizard 1/oracle 10 do the same?
You cannot do this.
Emulate a Class Feature: Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature. If the class whose feature you are emulating has an alignment requirement, you must meet it, either honestly or by emulating an appropriate alignment with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above).
This page is covered in densely-worded arcane or divine magical runes. It contains the knowledge of a single arcane or divine spell (chosen by the creator when the item is crafted). If the bearer is a spontaneous spellcaster and has that spell on her class spell list, she may use her spell slots to cast that spell as if it were one of her spells known. A page of spell knowledge is priced based on the spell's cleric or sorcerer/wizard spell level, unless the spell doesn't appear on either of those spell lists, in which case it is based on the highest spell level as it appears on any other spell list. For example, a spell that is on the 4th-level inquisitor list and the 2nd-level paladin list is priced as a 4th-level spell.
How do you activate the page? It does not have anything to activate. Therefore, you cannot use the page to allow you to cast other spells.
/cevah