Mongolian Horse Archer build

[Jackissocool]

I think cavalier is easily the best choice for the lancer. Especially since a lot of the archers will already be cavaliers. They might have a level or two of barbarian, just to represent how vicious and badass they were.

[blackbloodtroll]

What would be a good melee weapon for a Mongolian Badass?

[Daryl MacLeod]

Just build an Archer Ranger, human of course. If you're playing in Golarion I think it's the Kelish that are "horse lords".

As others have mentioned you can skip mounted feats entirely - use your horse to make a single move with your full attack and your golden.

Tweak Lastoth's build so you take boon companion early as possible If you'd like a bad ass mount.

You could also choose the "skirmisher" archetype if you want some "tricks" that synergize well with mounts/companions. You give up a lot though - tough call.

[Eric Hinkle]

Deadmanwalking wrote:

Jackissocool wrote:

Monk and Samurai would definitely not work- these are hordes of vicious warriors. They are not the spirit of discipline. Mechanically they could do it, but not at all from a thematic stand point. It seems like horse lord and luring cavalier are the best choices. I'm stuck in the mindsight of cavalier as european knight, though. Explain to me how you could call these characters cavaliers. I am open but unsure.

EDIT: I forgot to say I like your build, DMW.

A Cavalier is a warrior who's bound to his mount and whose devotion to a specific cause is all-encompassing. A Luring Cavalier is one who focuses on archery (and specifically, luring foes into following him, a tactic mongols were famous for) instead of melee, and an emissary one who forsakes heavy armor for mobility. With Order of the Dragon, their target of devotion is a group...such as a clan or tribe.

All sounds immensely appropriate to me.

And thanks. :)

All great choices, and if you want to use 3rd party material, Super Genius Games came up with the very well-done 'Order of the Bow' for mounted archer cavaliers in their 'More Cavalier Orders' PDF.

[Eric Hinkle]

Jackissocool wrote:

I think cavalier is easily the best choice for the lancer. Especially since a lot of the archers will already be cavaliers. They might have a level or two of barbarian, just to represent how vicious and badass they were.

The Dragoon fighter archetype from Ultimate Combat is optimized to be a terrific lancer. You might want to give him a few levels of either ranger or cavalier along with the Horse Master feat from UC to make sure his horse continues to improve as he levels up.

[Deadmanwalking]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

What would be a good melee weapon for a Mongolian Badass?

Lance if they're melee focused, scimitar as a backup weapon. Since thats basically what they actually used. Also, a good weapon selection mechanically.

[laurence lagnese]

a jian or dao would be appropriate, which would probably translate into the longsword and 9 ring broadsword. Later era mongols used scimitar esque weapons.

A big element is that they were so effective because the grew up shooting arrows at animals and just turned that into people for war. Every mongol was a skilled archer compared to the rest of the world. So even the heavy cav troops still need to have extra talent in archery.

The most complex part of trying to match it up is they used small hardy horses... not great big chargers... When you read the notes from their invasion of russia they were amazed by the size of the monstrous horses the russians rode. They preferred the smaller horses due to speed and maneuverability... which none of that really equates into pathfinder stats...

[Ascalaphus]

Ssalarn wrote:

Ascalaphus wrote:

Ssalarn wrote:

Just so we're clear here, you only need Mounted Skirmisher to make full attacks with a melee weapon while mounted. Anyone with a bow can make a full attack while mounted without any special feat.

Gah, you're right!

Aside from archery, into heavy cavalry: if you use the Sohei bonus feats to take Mounted Skirmisher early, and took Weapon Training on lances, by level 6 you'd be doing Ride By/Spirited Charge full attacks with the lance for massive damage (lances deal double damage on a mounted charge, and so does Spirited Charge; two doublings make a tripling, but that's still three attacks for triple damage every round.

The devs actually made it pretty clear that only the first attack in a mounted charge sequence gains the benefit of the charges increased damage. I can dig around and find the thread for you, but I'm 100% on this one. You'd get one triple damage attack, and two regular attacks.

That sounds reasonable. I would appreciate reading those threads though, to know exactly what they intended.

[Azaelas Fayth]

Mongols weren't as barbaric as people think... most of it was propaganda to demonize them. Some of it even came from them so they could frighten their next foe more. If you really want to see barbarian behaviour look at the Vikings. They would kill through women and rape the animals in some villages to frighten their other targets.

Mongols would be Lawful Neutral. They were kind to their allies, but brutal to their foes. And were one of the most organized civilizations of their time. Samurai is actually a very fitting class for their Elites. Heck, some of the later additions to Bushido came from Mongolian traders/raiders. Khan was actually a title NOT a name. And while a Mongol soldier was usually Cavalry they Also had Infantry albeit this came similar to how the Romans gained Cavalry. Primarily Mercenaries and Slaves.

I would say:

Scouts: Rangers (Hit-&-Run Switch hitters light armored)
Horse Archers: Cavaliers & A few Rangers and Fighters (lightly armored Skirmishers attacking drive-by style)
Heavy Cavalry: Cavaliers, Fighters, and A few Barbarians.(Medium Armored Lancers and Mounted Swordsmen)
Elite Cavalry: Samurai(Ronin/Order of the Dragon) & Cavaliers(Order of the Dragon)(both would be heavy armored switch hitters)
Any of the Khan: Any of the classes included above
Horses wore similar armor to their riders.

Infantry: Warriors
Elite Infantry: Fighters

Take what archetypes seem the best.

Either way good luck with this.

EDIT: Added the Armor and Tactics notes. Also if you want more info I can expand. Especially on their equipment.

[FrankManic]

Jackissocool wrote:

Monk and Samurai would definitely not work- these are hordes of vicious warriors. They are not the spirit of discipline.

Other people have said this, but I feel the anvil needs to be dropped repeatedly. A thousand years of propaganda drive the idea that the Mongols were crazy screaming barbarians. Compared to most of the rest of the world the Mongols were an extremely lawful society and the messy, completely disorganized, squabbling feudal knights of Europe were the chaotic, uncultured barbarians.

The Mongols conquered the entire world by being the best trained and most disciplined armies the world had seen since the height of the Roman legions. The tactics they used relied heavily on well drilled, coordinated troops being able to operate effectively together. Mongol troops needed to be able to coordinate effectively whether they were fighting in a ten man squad or a thousand man army. They had to be able to execute very complex tactics quickly, effectively, and reliably. They made use of decentralized command and control to obtain a level of tactic flexibility unheard of in the world up until that time.

Then you start getting into things like their logistics. They were able to sustain their massive armies and insanely rapid advances through a very sophisticated logistics and each soldiers ability to be largely self sufficient for long periods of time.

The Mongolian armies made very careful, deliberate use of psychological warfare and terror tactics. They knew the value of frightening an enemy into surrender without a battle and exploited it constantly.

Mongols were the epitome of disciplined, professional soldiers. They have more in common with modern armies than with the stereotype of screaming, crazy barbarians.

Keep in mind - Once these guys conquered an area they built highways, installed post offices, kept the roads safe and clear, installed civil governance. They were very self-conscious of their provincial nomadic origins so they obsessively stole the best aspects of every civilization they came across.