Double barreled fire arms

[SuperUberGeek]

I just started a new campaign and I am the first in my group to try a Gunslinger, at least in part because this the the first campaign since they came out in which they are allowed. I have question about how double barreled firearms work. The descriptions on the double barreled musket and pistol are a little different.

d20srd wrote:

This pistol has two parallel barrels; each barrel can be fired independently as a separate action, or both can be shot at once with the same action.

If both barrels are shot at once, they must both target the same creature or object, and the pistol becomes wildly inaccurate, imparting a –4 penalty on each shot.

d20srd wrote:

This musket has two parallel barrels; each barrel can be shot independently as a separate action, or both can be fired at once as the same attack.

If both barrels are fired at once, they must both target the same creature or object, and the gun becomes wildly inaccurate, taking a –4 penalty on each shot. Each barrel of a double-barreled musket uses either a bullet and a single dose of black powder or an alchemical cartridge as ammunition.

My question is this; once I have iterative attacks and rapid shot and assuming that I can reload as a free action, can I fire both barrels for each attack and do I get all my bonuses on each attack.

So for instance assuming lvl 6 with rapid reload, alchemical cartridges, rapid shot, and gun training. Does this mean that with a 20 Dex that the attacks will be +5/+5/+0 for each attack and do 2d8+10 damage on each shot? And how does this interact with deadly aim and the Up Close and Deadly Pistolaro deed?

[Lokie]

Assuming you are using a single firearm (so you have a free hand) and can reload as free actions then I do not see anything in the rules that would prevent you from firing two shots as a single attack (but making two rolls at -6 each), reloading, and repeating until you've run out of attacks.

Progression should be something like (+5/+5)/(+5/+5)/(+0/+0)

[Michael Sayre]

This is one of those ones where the rules are a little wonky though. The wording is kind of vague on how the additional attack should work, since it says they can be fired together "with the same action" on the pistol and "at once as the same attack" for the musket, and include the text "imparting a -4 penalty on each shot".
You could read that as meaning that there are two separate attack rolls when firing both barrels simultaneously, in which case you'd apply bonuses like Trues Strike or Sneak attack separately, or it could be read that each subsequent attack in a series in which you fire both barrels incurs an additional -4 penalty, which allows you to consider each sequence a single attack for bonuses and effects, but leaves you with some severely steep penalties on iterative attacks. There hasn't been much dev input on this, so you and your Gm are going to have to hammer out how he's going to be ruling it going into the campaign.

[Lokie]

In instances where you have attacks like this that include more than one bolt, bullet, arrow... what have you I'm pretty sure you only get one sneak attack. Its the same as the Archer shooting two arrows with the Manyshot feat.

[Jamie Charlan]

Balance wise, the best I've managed to do is this [note that this can bring certain builds up into two-thirds-of-an-archer territory, leaving the poor crossbow far behind. Its not quite as high, but bows are too damn strong compared to every other ranged weapon out there, so screw it]:

- Double-Barrel shot can be done maximum once per round per hand [so once with rifles/shotguns, twice with dual pistols]. With free-reload iteratives, you're stuffing a barrel at a time and firing. This nets you as many shots in the air, potentially, as manyshot.

- Both shots when double-fired are individual rolls at -4 penalty. This penalty is applied to the two shots fired as a double, NOT to all attacks: it would say 'to all attacks' or the such if this were the case.

Usually that's done with the highest BAB, first thing in the round, so your second shot is only one lower; a rather marginal drop in accuracy so long as you were already going to hit reliably eh?

- Halve the bonus dice from Sneak and other such things. First one gets the leftovers [when its an odd number]. So, someone with sneak 5d6 would do +3d6 on first shot, +2d6 on the second.

- For purposes of vital strike, each bullet is fully multiplied. It is a single attack that just happens to be made in a way that makes vital strike actually worth taking for ranged attacks, as opposed to a cheapass crutch for a desperate crossbowman.

Overall, while "gained by equipment", the 'manyshot but at -4' is purchased through several class levels or feats just to be able to attack more than once every other round, as opposed to being a proficiency that almost everything that's not using Sleep as ranged instead can use without a feat for a weapon that could top a shot a second.

[Hakken]

Ssalarn wrote:

This is one of those ones where the rules are a little wonky though. The wording is kind of vague on how the additional attack should work, since it says they can be fired together "with the same action" on the pistol and "at once as the same attack" for the musket, and include the text "imparting a -4 penalty on each shot".

You could read that as meaning that there are two separate attack rolls when firing both barrels simultaneously, in which case you'd apply bonuses like Trues Strike or Sneak attack separately, or it could be read that each subsequent attack in a series in which you fire both barrels incurs an additional -4 penalty, which allows you to consider each sequence a single attack for bonuses and effects, but leaves you with some severely steep penalties on iterative attacks. There hasn't been much dev input on this, so you and your Gm are going to have to hammer out how he's going to be ruling it going into the campaign.

"""At a recent con, I sat and played at a table with a gunslinger. I noticed the penalties of -8/-8 to each shot weren't being subtracted to the rolls, the increased chance of misfires were being ignored, and the gold per shot wasn't being calculated.

Once I corrected all of these, the gunslinger became much less effective and decided he didn't want to spend so much gold every round on ammunition. The -8/-8 penalty is hefty, even against touch AC.

I think that if GMs make sure the rules are being applied properly, you will not see gunslingers dominating combat as much as is currently being reported""

from Michael Brock on this post

http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5ldqy&page=8?Guide-42-and-Changes-t o-Pathfinder-Society#discuss

so the pentalty would be neg 8--not neg 4

[Jamie Charlan]

um, -4 on each shot is -4 on each shot, not -4 PER shot on EACH shot.
The reason the guy was looking at -8 to each of two shots was that he was firing into a busy melee, OR firing with two-weapon-figthing [they were not very precise as to which in there but the post WAS in response to an above post regarding a specific combat situation].

-8 to each purely because its two shots at -4 with that wording would mean that rapid-shot is anything from -4 to two shots [2 shots at -2] to -10 to each of five shots [full iterative + rapid shot at -2 each]... with a questionable -12 everywhere instead if manyshot kicks in. It also makes hitting most things that aren't barn-sized dragons non-viable.

But what's this about gunslingers dominating combat? have people stopped rolling up composite longbow users? Because at higher levels, its very, very difficult to even approach those buggers with most builds

[Hakken]

Jamie Charlan wrote:

um, -4 on each shot is -4 on each shot, not -4 PER shot on EACH shot.

The reason the guy was looking at -8 to each of two shots was that he was firing into a busy melee, OR firing with two-weapon-figthing [they were not very precise as to which in there but the post WAS in response to an above post regarding a specific combat situation].

-8 to each purely because its two shots at -4 with that wording would mean that rapid-shot is anything from -4 to two shots [2 shots at -2] to -10 to each of five shots [full iterative + rapid shot at -2 each]... with a questionable -12 everywhere instead if manyshot kicks in. It also makes hitting most things that aren't barn-sized dragons non-viable.

But what's this about gunslingers dominating combat? have people stopped rolling up composite longbow users? Because at higher levels, its very, very difficult to even approach those buggers with most builds

a gunslinger as a utility class with 4+ int skills and deeds for utility should not even be close in dpr to a fighter archer build with 2+int skills and no utility. All of their dpr is due to their extra feats which they get--which you counter by getting nimble and deeds. The fact that you are close to them in dpr is a problem. If you had their 2+in skills and less utility in deeds it would not be.