|
Okay so its just the assumption he wants to be as far out as he can to maximize his stealth.
It is the number of things that have to go right for the Tiger to get a pounce against level 4 players.
If we are assuming the Tiger has lots of tactical advantages, then that would also raise the CR of the encounter.
I'm still pretty sure Pounce doesn't supersede surprise round rules, for the same reason you can't double-move in a charge or withdraw. The rules seem kind of vague on it, but I don't think this is what was intended.
@thejeff: regarding the surprise round, I'm not exactly sure what you mean. It's just like any other stealth situation that results in a surprise round. He approaches to within 40 ft, stealthing. At this point initiative hasn't started, the action of staying stealthy isn't an action in the combat sense, it doesn't occur on any initiative count.
|
|
@thejeff: regarding the surprise round, I'm not exactly sure what you mean. It's just like any other stealth situation that results in a surprise round. He approaches to within 40 ft, stealthing. At this point initiative hasn't started, the action of staying stealthy isn't an action in the combat sense, it doesn't occur on any initiative count.
Stealth is part of a move action, but the move action is done in initiative.
The PC's may not be aware it is going on if they don't make checks on their turn, but it is still happening.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I don't like to fetishize the idea of balance too much. At a certain point we're balancing our tigers until they aren't tigers anymore. If we turn every creature into the same CR appropriate pile of numbers we might as well just get out calculators and start battling with them instead of playing RPG's.
I don't see there being much "nova factor" with the goblins. Exactly what are they going to nova?Ashiel unlike you that Goblin scenario would have taken me about 3 weeks to complete. So instead of posting my own example up, I just said what I would have done a little differently. It's not an attack on you.
You went to all the trouble of writing it, why not let people scrutinize it. It's ok if not everyone thinks its perfect. I for one would have paid a few bucks for it if you had released it as a PDF.
I was just wondering how they qualify as going "nova", and why their gear doesn't make sense for their role. If I sounded overly defensive, my apologies my friend. (^o^)"
Put another way, one could argue that a Tiger in high grass with no difficult terrain could be considered a +1 encounter due to terrain.
Because a creature in its natural environment should be +1 CR. Yeah. I'll buy that. Time to go add +1 CR to all the aquatic creatures now too.
The tigers 4th level perception is +8. Less than a 4th level PC with any kind of investment in perception.
Because obviously the Tiger doesn't have Scent, and can't just take 10 and follow the trail of a 3-5 players through a forest/jungle, using its low-light vision to see clearly in the dim light of the forest.
So we have the tiger see the party first, without being seen.
Mostly due to the fact your typical party isn't hiding, and the Tiger's Stealth is huge from charging distance.
Hide within range to charge,Up to 40 ft. away in fact.
but not behind anything that would impede the charge,Because merely concealment is enough to hide.
and then attack in the full round (because it can't attack in the surprise)
Taking a charge action as a standard to move 40 ft (instead of 80 ft) and full-attack for free. Roll Initiative.
Those are a lot of "ifs".
Seems like a lot of likely conditions to me.
Compare it to the Dark Stalker that can cast deeper darkness at will and does 3d6 sneak attack plus poison.
Yep. Also very likely to utterly ruin a 4th level party's day. They have no spells of their own to pierce the darkness unless they purchased a heightened continual flame, and basically get to be dismantled for tons of damage each round. So much for "easy encounter".
@thejeff: regarding the surprise round, I'm not exactly sure what you mean. It's just like any other stealth situation that results in a surprise round. He approaches to within 40 ft, stealthing. At this point initiative hasn't started, the action of staying stealthy isn't an action in the combat sense, it doesn't occur on any initiative count.Stealth is part of a move action, but the move action is done in initiative.
The PC's may not be aware it is going on if they don't make checks on their turn, but it is still happening.
I meant while he's stalking them stealthily, before combat has been declared. Obviously you don't play the game in 6-second turn based rounds all the time, or things like over-sea voyages would be pretty ridiculous.
|
|
For a 4th level party, these are relatively easy encounter.
Taking the classic 4, you have two full casters with 2nd level spells, a skill monkey with strong perception to see these kinds of things coming, a high damage tank and 6000 gold worth of equipment each...
If the tiger doesn't succeed with the stealth, the party should either be able to disable it or be doing enough damage to drop it in a round.
But I supposed if we buy barding for the tiger...
|
|
I meant while he's stalking them stealthily, before combat has been declared. Obviously you don't play the game in 6-second turn based rounds all the time, or things like over-sea voyages would be pretty ridiculous.@thejeff: regarding the surprise round, I'm not exactly sure what you mean. It's just like any other stealth situation that results in a surprise round. He approaches to within 40 ft, stealthing. At this point initiative hasn't started, the action of staying stealthy isn't an action in the combat sense, it doesn't occur on any initiative count.Stealth is part of a move action, but the move action is done in initiative.
The PC's may not be aware it is going on if they don't make checks on their turn, but it is still happening.
Of course you would. Same as you would for the PC's trying to sneak up on a bad guy.
Table plays the same both ways.
Actually I don't bother to check round for PCs sneaking up on bad guys unless there is a reason to do so. I start checking rounds once either A the party decides they are doing something that will need it or B the party gets noticed.
For a 4th level party, these are relatively easy encounter.
Taking the classic 4, you have two full casters with 2nd level spells, a skill monkey with strong perception to see these kinds of things coming, a high damage tank and 6000 gold worth of equipment each...
If the tiger doesn't succeed with the stealth, the party should either be able to disable it or be doing enough damage to drop it in a round.
But I supposed if we buy barding for the tiger...
Why would the tiger have barding? It has neither treasure nor is it Intelligent. Is it the pet tiger of something? Has it been trained to guard a location or something? Is there a reason the tiger would have gear that it isn't listed as having (treasure value)?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I don't know every game I've been in went to initiative count when combat was declared, not before. Then who acts in surprise round is based on who was aware of the other side and who wasn't. Isn't that one of the most basic uses of stealth?
|
|
Actually I don't bother to check round for PCs sneaking up on bad guys unless there is a reason to do so. I start checking rounds once either A the party decides they are doing something that will need it or B the party gets noticed.
I start checking as soon as you could reasonably be detected, depending on the set up.
So for the tiger, I would have them rolling initiative once I got done drawing the board (we generally play on a converted pool table, so big spaces and distances) and go from there.
What is the point of giving perception checks if stealth is auto-success?
I don't get it so if a tiger stalks a party for a mile and half across the plains, you think the whole trek should be resolved six seconds at a time in turns going around the table? Not making fun of you, just don't see where you're going with that.
Actually I don't bother to check round for PCs sneaking up on bad guys unless there is a reason to do so. I start checking rounds once either A the party decides they are doing something that will need it or B the party gets noticed.I start checking as soon as you could reasonably be detected, depending on the set up.
So for the tiger, I would have them rolling initiative once I got done drawing the board (we generally play on a converted pool table, so big spaces and distances) and go from there.
What is the point of giving perception checks if stealth is auto-success?
Who said Stealth was auto-success? If you see the Tiger, then no surprise round for the tiger. If you don't, then the Tiger is going to...
RAOWR!
|
|
I don't know every game I've been in went to initiative count when combat was declared, not before. Then who acts in surprise round is based on who was aware of the other side and who wasn't. Isn't that one of the most basic uses of stealth?
Is combat declared when the tiger begins to try and stalk the party or only when it is perfectly positioned to strike?
If you are trying to sneak into a castle, do you roll initiative before you plan your route or only after you are discovered? And how do you determine where everyone is as you proceed, should someone be discovered and combat begins?
Unless they are using their move actions to check everyround they get one free action chance to detect the tiger unless your being a nice GM.
So yes if they move at half-speed (making it easy to keep up with them) I might want to start rounds at that point.
|
|
Actually I don't bother to check round for PCs sneaking up on bad guys unless there is a reason to do so. I start checking rounds once either A the party decides they are doing something that will need it or B the party gets noticed.I start checking as soon as you could reasonably be detected, depending on the set up.
So for the tiger, I would have them rolling initiative once I got done drawing the board (we generally play on a converted pool table, so big spaces and distances) and go from there.
What is the point of giving perception checks if stealth is auto-success?
Who said Stealth was auto-success? If you see the Tiger, then no surprise round for the tiger. If you don't, then the Tiger is going to...
RAOWR!
So you start the tiger within 40 feet of the party? It just automatically can get that close, because of GM fiat?
The tiger saw the party first (GM fiat) moved however many times it had to move to get within range of the party (GM fiat) and then the party gets a single perception check against this thing that just magically appeared 40 feet from them?
If you are trying to sneak into a castle, do you roll initiative before you plan your route or only after you are discovered? And how do you determine where everyone is as you proceed, should someone be discovered and combat begins?
I have my party give me a marching order they let me know if they break that order to go ahead or hang back. I lay the tiles out as they enter a room and they then procceed to tell me what they do once I give them the details.
|
|
Unless they are using their move actions to check everyround they get one free action chance to detect the tiger unless your being a nice GM.
So yes if they move at half-speed (making it easy to keep up with them) I might want to start rounds at that point.
It is an opposed stealth check. The tiger has to see the party first, then has to position itself.
Do you just assume the Tiger saw the party first, started being stealthy, moved unobserved to within 40 feet of the party, then the party gets one check?
No wonder you think it is overpowered for CR 4.
I don't know every game I've been in went to initiative count when combat was declared, not before. Then who acts in surprise round is based on who was aware of the other side and who wasn't. Isn't that one of the most basic uses of stealth?
Is combat declared when the tiger begins to try and stalk the party or only when it is perfectly positioned to strike?
If you are trying to sneak into a castle, do you roll initiative before you plan your route or only after you are discovered? And how do you determine where everyone is as you proceed, should someone be discovered and combat begins?
I see what you mean there, if I have a player sneaking around in a populated area of a dungeon I would go to turn based tactical movement since there's a lot of precision in the position and line of sight and everything.
I still don't get what the question is about the surprise round though. PC's get a passive perception to notice the tiger stalking them 40 feet away, if they know he's there there's no surprise round when he suddenly pounces. If they did know he was there, roll 1st round of combat begins.
|
|
I have my party give me a marching order they let me know if they break that order to go ahead or hang back. I lay the tiles out as they enter a room and they then procceed to tell me what they do once I give them the details.
If you are trying to sneak into a castle, do you roll initiative before you plan your route or only after you are discovered? And how do you determine where everyone is as you proceed, should someone be discovered and combat begins?
I do the same thing, but initiative still comes into play as the guards are going to get to make perception checks on their turn against the players stealth checks.
Same for the tiger trying to sneak up on the party. Hell the party might see the tiger before the tiger sees the party and can start being stealthy.
|
|
I don't know every game I've been in went to initiative count when combat was declared, not before. Then who acts in surprise round is based on who was aware of the other side and who wasn't. Isn't that one of the most basic uses of stealth?
Is combat declared when the tiger begins to try and stalk the party or only when it is perfectly positioned to strike?
If you are trying to sneak into a castle, do you roll initiative before you plan your route or only after you are discovered? And how do you determine where everyone is as you proceed, should someone be discovered and combat begins?
I see what you mean there, if I have a player sneaking around in a populated area of a dungeon I would go to turn based tactical movement since there's a lot of precision in the position and line of sight and everything.
I still don't get what the question is about the surprise round though. PC's get a passive perception to notice the tiger stalking them 40 feet away, if they know he's there there's no surprise round when he suddenly pounces. If they did know he was there, roll 1st round of combat begins.
And I'm saying I'm going to have the tiger tactically trying to sneak up on the party...assuming he saw them first.
This is what the GM screen is all about. I use note cards for my players checks and roll the checks behind the screen.
It isn't like the tiger is invisible. +11 in tall grass is pretty good, but a +7 is just full ranks perception as a class skill.
The party is moving at likely 40 a round, and the tiger has to move about the same speed if it is being stealthy. The distance modifier is only -1 for 10 feet, so you would roll the following.
First, you roll to see if the tiger saw the party before the party saw the tiger. Then you roll how ever many stealth checks it takes to get the tiger into position, depending on the terrain.
If the party sees the tiger first, depending on layout it is a really easy encounter. And the tiger only has a +8 perception.
It is an opposed stealth check.
Agreed.
The tiger has to see the party first, then has to position itself.
Agreed also though most of my parties are easy to spot moving across an open plain of tall grass.
Do you just assume the Tiger saw the party first, started being stealthy, moved unobserved to within 40 feet of the party, then the party gets one check?
I assume the Tiger spots the party first and is not noticied do to lying down and the fact that my party is taking 10 on perception. The tiger then moves up to them at 20ft a round easily overtaking their 10-15 ft a round if they are using perception round by round. If not then they easily leave the tiger behind which may or may not track them to attack later.
No wonder you think it is overpowered for CR 4.
Never said that.
Unless they are using their move actions to check everyround they get one free action chance to detect the tiger unless your being a nice GM.
So yes if they move at half-speed (making it easy to keep up with them) I might want to start rounds at that point.
It is an opposed stealth check. The tiger has to see the party first, then has to position itself.
Do you just assume the Tiger saw the party first, started being stealthy, moved unobserved to within 40 feet of the party, then the party gets one check?
No wonder you think it is overpowered for CR 4.
I don't think its overpowered for a CR 4. I just think compared to most CR 4's it's pretty likely to drop a PC before it dies.
Ive only run tigers a few times. Exactly four times I think, in my whole career. One was in Slumbering Tsar, in the druid grove. The tigers in that encounter were described as being in stealth when you came into their area, they were patrolling the perimeter hunting. So yeah they got the drop on the party. There was almost no way they wouldn't have, unless the party was for some reason freakishly specialized in perception.
The other time's I've run tigers have been when they came up on random encounter checks from tables I use during wilderness exploration. In that case it was up to me to decide the circumstances. 2 out of 3 times this happened they succeeded on stealth and the surprise round played out like people are describing here. One time went really bad but no one died. The other time I remember everyone was thinking TPK and then I'm pretty sure my little brother one-shot the tiger in the 1st round of initiative with his half-orc mage. I don't know if this is right but I feel like it was a scorching ray with some metamagic feat applied. He would know, it was memorable.
The third time a pair of tigers came up on the table and I knew they couldn't handle it so I decided they stumbled upon them mating. That time tigers failed the perception check, PC's had surprise round.
I'm trying to just make sure the facts and debate are on the same chapter(doubt it will ever be same page)
No the basis for this derail-iscussion is that creatures with Treasure Type: None work pretty good for the CR without any gear, and creatures with Treasure Type: NPC Gear work pretty good for the CR if they use the NPC Gear.
At least that's what I got out of it.
I'm trying to just make sure the facts and debate are on the same chapter(doubt it will ever be same page)
Somebodies gotta do it :)
So you start the tiger within 40 feet of the party? It just automatically can get that close, because of GM fiat?The tiger saw the party first (GM fiat) moved however many times it had to move to get within range of the party (GM fiat) and then the party gets a single perception check against this thing that just magically appeared 40 feet from them?
Honestly here's what I do. I'm not sure its official but its convenient.
I have a tiger and I have a party and I know I want them to run into each other right?
So I assume each is taking ten on perception, so the tiger has an 18.
DC to notice a creature is 0 + 1/10 ft so he will notice them at 180 feat unless they are stealthing for some reason.
He is probably stealthing, just because he's a tiger that's how he rolls. So the DC to see him is 18 even if he's right next to you.
So at 180 ft when he sees you, the DC to see him is 36.
If someone in the party has a +26 to perception they see each other at the same time. If not he keeps closing in.
If the best perception bonus in the party is +12, then he can get to 40 without being noticed. If someone has a better perception then that, they have a chance to see him before he gets to 40 ft.
And for good measure, even if he gets there, I'll give everyone a roll to notice him before he breaks concealment to pounce. If someone makes it, no surprise round.
I'd even say Grimmy is more generous than I would be. I'd have the Tiger take 10, the party gets a reactive Perception check (rolled in secret), and then I'd keep the same checks until something new happened (since there is no new stimulus and nobody is using move actions to keep attempting to find something). I can't find anything to suggest this is against the rules, so this is how I'd run it.
That's what I used to do. How do you like my new way? Im very curious to know if you dig it.
It isn't just for tiggers of course. I came up with it for determining distance at the start of random encounters, since I'm doing a sandbox hex crawl and I use a lot of Random Encounter tables.
Or "Wandering Monster Checks" as we use to call them.
You can't take 10 when failure has consequences, can you?
That doesn't ring right to my ears, but I'm pretty sure it's what the book says. Who let me on the internet? This is a respectable joint, they can't let just anybody muck around.
That's what I used to do. How do you like my new way? Im very curious to know if you dig it.
I think it's fine, and a bit generous. The only thing that concerns me is, as I read it, it seems like the PCs are getting 2:1 chances to spot him coming, which seems a little unfair to the Tiger, actually. :\
You can't take 10 when failure has consequences, can you?
That doesn't ring right to my ears, but I'm pretty sure it's what the book says. Who let me on the internet? This is a respectable joint, they can't let just anybody muck around.
Yes, you can. As long as the Tiger is not in danger or distracted (it is not) then you can do so. Also, it's not hypothetical danger but danger-danger. The tiger is stalking prey, and there is no combat. Risk of failure has nothing to do with taking 10. You are correct in that the Tiger could not take 20 while stalking the party.
Naturally, once combat actually begins, the tiger is in danger and distracted, and could not continue to take 10 on its skills.
A great example would be that a rogue can take 10 and Stealth along in a dungeon. It can come to a door and take 10 to try and open it. But if he was to try and unlock a door in the middle of combat, no taking 10 (unless he has the high level rogue ability allowing him to).
Also I found this video while looking up tiger stuff. I thought since we had been talking about tigers, some might want it for inspirational stuff.
Good to know. That's how I thought it worked (I saw it get used that way in some PbPs), but my brother and the book contradicted me (well, the brother did, and the book only seemed to, but whatever).
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Good to know. That's how I thought it worked (I saw it get used that way in some PbPs), but my brother and the book contradicted me (well, the brother did, and the book only seemed to, but whatever).
One of the most common things I've said to new players at our table is "Take 10 is your friend". It's also the GM's best friend. Screw rolling a bajillion skill checks. You want your rogue to sneak into a camp of goblins like they do in the movies? Assume all the goblins are taking 10. Now gives you a simple set DC that you can then apply modifiers to as appropriate.
|
|
No the basis for this derail-iscussion is that creatures with Treasure Type: None work pretty good for the CR without any gear, and creatures with Treasure Type: NPC Gear work pretty good for the CR if they use the NPC Gear.
At least that's what I got out of it.
So we randomly pick tiger and no cooresponding NPC gear of the same level?
Dark Creeper wasn't an accidental pick. They have "other gear" listed and they are an intelligent creature. How much gear do we add to them, considering it has already been said they are very powerful for a CR 4 as is?
|
|
Good to know. That's how I thought it worked (I saw it get used that way in some PbPs), but my brother and the book contradicted me (well, the brother did, and the book only seemed to, but whatever).
The book says this.
"When your character is not in immediate danger or distracted, you may choose to take 10. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, calculate your result as if you had rolled a 10. For many routine tasks, taking 10 makes them automatically successful. Distractions or threats (such as combat) make it impossible for a character to take 10. In most cases, taking 10 is purely a safety measure—you know (or expect) that an average roll will succeed but fear that a poor roll might fail, so you elect to settle for the average roll (a 10). Taking 10 is especially useful in situations where a particularly high roll wouldn't help."
The party isn't taking 10 even if you let the tiger (which would be a bit of a grey area I would probably allow). Hunting prey is borderline combat/borderline distracting and the NPCs are threats...but this is also what the tiger does. RAW if the PCs are considered threats to the tiger (which would seem a reasonable ruling), it is a no go to take 10.
The Tiger is definately a threat to the party, so they can't take 10. Meaning they are rolling. The question is when and how often. And for me the stalking starts when either could reasonably spot the other, you make perception checks for both sides. If the tiger sees the party without the party seeing the tiger, it starts stalking them for a pounce.
Either way, that is when you roll initiative, because that is when the encounter begins.
No the basis for this derail-iscussion is that creatures with Treasure Type: None work pretty good for the CR without any gear, and creatures with Treasure Type: NPC Gear work pretty good for the CR if they use the NPC Gear.
At least that's what I got out of it.
So we randomly pick tiger and no cooresponding NPC gear of the same level?
Dark Creeper wasn't an accidental pick. They have "other gear" listed and they are an intelligent creature. How much gear do we add to them, considering it has already been said they are very powerful for a CR 4 as is?
A dark stalker has NPC gear equal to an NPC of the dark stalker's CR. Thus a dark stalker has 2,400 gp worth of gear. The sample dark stalker has 2 short swords, leather armor, and six doses of black smear. Now one issue I have with the dark stalkers is they are noted as having six doses of "black smear" in their equipment, but there is nothing that explains what black smear is, where it comes from, or how much it costs. The closest poison in resemblance to it is large scorpion venom at 200 gp a pop (but the scorpion venom has a save DC +2 higher), so we don't actually know how expensive "black smear" is (unlike drow who have poison listed with a price in the rules), but we can probably be assured it's no more than 200 gp a pop (since large scorpion venom is no more than 200 gp a pop).
So using the large scorpion venom as a ruler, they have about 1,230 gp worth of equipment on them, leaving 1,170 gp worth of equipment in flux. Thus the dark stalker has the option to have mwk shortswords, a +1 cloak of resistance, mwk studded leather, or some other treasure that would be appropriate for it to have, with the remaining treasure distributed as coins and gems more than likely.
I would disagree about combat beginning at sighting. Combat doesn't actually start till one side makes an attack. If the other side is still unaware the this is a surprise round. Many groups use first sighting as the opportunity to converse with this new encounter. It's the first point at which dialog begins NOT combat unless one side just flat out launches an attack. In the case of the Tiger your PCs that have animal empathy can now do their stuff and try to calm the tiger. By erroneously starting combat at sighting you remove all options for peaceful resolution which is unfair to anyone who built a role play style character. Sure Hack-n-Slashers may want to just skip the dialog and get straight to combat but that decision should rest in the players hands after they spotted the encounter and before combat starts.
One requirement I have as a gm to make the world make sense is the monster must either be able to put on its own barding or be trained by someone as an animal that uses barding on it. Otherwise this makes the world not make as much sense.
|
|
I would disagree about combat beginning at sighting. Combat doesn't actually start till one side makes an attack. If the other side is still unaware the this is a surprise round. Many groups use first sighting as the opportunity to converse with this new encounter. It's the first point at which dialog begins NOT combat unless one side just flat out launches an attack. In the case of the Tiger your PCs that have animal empathy can now do their stuff and try to calm the tiger. By erroneously starting combat at sighting you remove all options for peaceful resolution which is unfair to anyone who built a role play style character. Sure Hack-n-Slashers may want to just skip the dialog and get straight to combat but that decision should rest in the players hands after they spotted the encounter and before combat starts.
First sighting for someone you may not be in combat with first, sure. If a tiger sees you and then immediately decides to hunt you, you are in combat if you know it or not.
If you are trying to sneak into a building, you are in combat before you fight.
No, you don't roll initiative while you are sitting in the inn, but as soon as things might get hairy, we do.
Otherwise how do you determine who is going when and where they are at.
As far as Stealth vs Perception goes this has always been it's own raging debate. Since even Ciretose and I think anyone would allow taking 10 on stealth till combat begins (despite the side issue of when that is) it is fair to allow the Tiger his take 10 until combat. BUT are the player characters taking 10? It sounds like that is up to the players even though in the case of the tiger I would check in secret. The rules give everyone who could reasonably notice a reactive roll to the tigers stealth roll. How often does the tiger need to make a stealth check? Every move action? If so that is a LOT of opportunities for the PCs to notice it. This works poorly in my view. But it looks like the way the game is built it gives a huge advantage to groups for defeating stealth. And yes if this is how you play it then many stealth based characters are largely impossible when facing a group of enemies.
One requirement I have as a gm to make the world make sense is the monster must either be able to put on its own barding or be trained by someone as an animal that uses barding on it. Otherwise this makes the world not make as much sense.
Agreed, 100%. Honestly, I think Ciretose's tiger with barding is an attempt at trying to make those of us who expect creatures to actually use their equipment look stupid, though I think it backfired in his face, since it flies in the face of both reason and what we have been saying.
For example, using the Tiger and Darkstalker as examples, the darkstalker has "NPC gear" treasure. That's 2,400 gp worth of treasure, minus his current equipment (leaving a little over 1,000 gp to play with for treasure, adding items that make sense being on a darkstalker, and assuming he will use anything that is useful at the time). The tiger has Treasure none, so the Tiger has no treasure or equipment at all.
So like you say, unless the tiger was trained and geared via a trainer (say a group of jungle orcs train the tiger to prowl their borders and eat/attack trespassers), then the tiger won't be wearing barding. And if it is wearing barding, it's either taken from its NPC trainer's loot, or from elsewhere in the adventure's loot at least. That would at least explain why there is a non-intelligent tiger who in addition to being a CR 4 encounter got his barding (and the reduced treasure values for its masters means that, theoretically, while the tiger is slightly harder, the others should be slightly easier).
Again that is wrong Ciretose. Combat begins when someone attacks NOT when someone decides to use stealth...
It matters not where the encounter is taking place.