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One requirement I have as a gm to make the world make sense is the monster must either be able to put on its own barding or be trained by someone as an animal that uses barding on it. Otherwise this makes the world not make as much sense.
It was sarcasm on my part.
By the way, Dark Creeper base is standard treasure, not NPC. And they have 3 doses, not 6. At least according to the SRD.
All of this should be moot by the bestiary quote:
"Gear should help a monster with class levels remain challenging and retain statistics close to those presented on Table 1-1: Monster Statistics by CR."
The monsters created in the bestiary are set to be about that CR level as written. If you modify them in such a way that they are more powerful than the table on 1-1, you need to modify the CR as well.
Small changes won't move them, big ones can. Even something as minor as adding full plate armor can change things significantly.
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If he observes you for three rounds in hiding before attacking, does he get a full round action when he does? Or is it a surprise round?If an assassin is observing you prior to a death attack, are you in combat?Again that is wrong Ciretose. Combat begins when someone attacks NOT when someone decides to use stealth...
It matters not where the encounter is taking place.
How do you count rounds if not in initiative? If an assassin is nearby for 18 seconds they get a free death attack on you, because we aren't in initiative yet because no one has attacked anyone yet?
As far as Stealth vs Perception goes this has always been it's own raging debate. Since even Ciretose and I think anyone would allow taking 10 on stealth till combat begins (despite the side issue of when that is) it is fair to allow the Tiger his take 10 until combat. BUT are the player characters taking 10? It sounds like that is up to the players even though in the case of the tiger I would check in secret. The rules give everyone who could reasonably notice a reactive roll to the tigers stealth roll. How often does the tiger need to make a stealth check? Every move action? If so that is a LOT of opportunities for the PCs to notice it. This works poorly in my view. But it looks like the way the game is built it gives a huge advantage to groups for defeating stealth. And yes if this is how you play it then many stealth based characters are largely impossible when facing a group of enemies.
I haven't found anything that suggests that you have to keep making new Stealth checks every time you take a move action, only that your Stealth check is typically made as a non-action or as part of a move action. You are correct in saying that it would more or less ruin Stealth for everyone (PC and NPC alike) to have an opposed check constantly rolled (you would have to exceed your opponent's modifier by around +20 or so before you could reasonably expect to sneak past a group of orcs).
As to Perception, I see taking 10 as an option for PCs as well. I usually let players know that unless they wish otherwise, I will be assuming that they are taking 10 on Perception checks (thus allowing the PCs request I roll them if desired, and of course allowing the PCs to search for stuff manually by declaring it).
An example of how this would work out in play:
GM: "As you are wandering through the lush forest, it is warm, a bit damp, and the lightning is dim as the sun scarcely peeks through the forest canopy. I'll be assuming you are taking 10 on any Perception checks unless you wish otherwise."
P1/P2/P3: "Sounds good, let's find that temple!"
P4: "My character will specifically be on the lookout for danger. He's a bit paranoid of this jungle."
GM: "Fair enough. You travel..."
Sometime later, the party is ambushed by some jungle orcs -- or more appropriately the orcs attempt to ambush them. These orc experts have a +6 Stealth modifier, so the base DC to notice them is 16 with them all taking 10 to stalk the party. Of course, as it turns out, one of the PCs who is taking 10 has a +8 Perception modifier. The guy who wanted to roll rolls and gets a 4 (but he doesn't know that), so he's apparently too busy looking where the orcs aren't (or just looking too hard).
At a range of 40 ft. away, the orcs are unseen. They creep closer to 30 ft. Still unseen. They creep 20 ft. closer. Suddenly, the guy with the 18 Perception result notices them and acts during the surprise round. Initiative is rolled. The party dispatches the orcs, and goes on about their business.
Sometime later, a mother tiger feeds her almost grown cubs the found remains of the orc bodies, and then wanders off in the direction of the scent of the party to find more food (having just watched a tiger documentary on tigers in the Sunderbans, this makes good sense to me). It is stalking its prey in classic tiger fashion. The forest is lush and filled with lots of long thin plants out and about (offering concealment but not being rough enough to warrant actual cover) so the Tiger (and anyone else) will have little difficulty finding a place to hide, since all you need is a little concealment.
The Tiger stalks the party be scent for about 1/2 a day. The party is feeling pretty confident, and the Ranger's passive +8 Perception has avoided a few pitfalls along the way (like literally, pitfalls), but they aren't aware that Sebera the Tiger is on the trail...
The Tiger finally is within sight of the party, and she first notices the large heavily armored fighter clad in mail from a distance. With a +8 Perception, she notices the not-hiding fighter from about 170 feet away. She continues to move in with her DC 21 Stealth, though the DC to spot her is about 38 from this distance...
She creeps up on the party at 20 ft. per round. Quickly enough that each time the party isn't moving at full speed, she gains a little ground. She is not only perfectly willing to ambush them when they seem distracted, but actually prefers that idea. So she continues to creep up on them. At one point, the party comes to the edge of a small river, and decides what to do. While they do, she closes in...
Sebera stalks within 40 ft. of the party (DC 25 to spot her), and then makes her move. During the surprise round (she is the only side aware of the other when combat actions are declared) she charges through the jungle and leaps onto the party's elven ranger, and suddenly OMFG a tiger!! DRAW STEEL!
One requirement I have as a gm to make the world make sense is the monster must either be able to put on its own barding or be trained by someone as an animal that uses barding on it. Otherwise this makes the world not make as much sense.It was sarcasm on my part.
By the way, Dark Creeper base is standard treasure, not NPC. And they have 3 doses, not 6. At least according to the SRD.
Are we talking about dark creepers or stalkers?
How do you count rounds if not in initiative? If an assassin is nearby for 18 seconds they get a free death attack on you, because we aren't in initiative yet because no one has attacked anyone yet?If he observes you for three rounds in hiding before attacking, does he get a full round action when he does? Or is it a surprise round?If an assassin is observing you prior to a death attack, are you in combat?Again that is wrong Ciretose. Combat begins when someone attacks NOT when someone decides to use stealth...
It matters not where the encounter is taking place.
A round is 6 seconds. Three rounds is 18 seconds. If they are stalking you for 18 seconds and you have no idea, then surprise round->blowdart to the throat.
I had a friend of mine who has preparing this big red dragon for his table. He rolled "full plate +3" and told me "So, if the dragon has it, why wouldn't he wear it?".
I stopped playing with him.
Regardless, I'm cool with monsters wearing their treasure, but we really could use an official word on this. When I relatively inexperienced I did exactly that (though in 3rd edition, where treasure was random): 2 trolls as a random encounter had a belt of strenght +4 and some sort of magic two-handed axe. They absolutely rolled over the level 7 party, killing the (fully buffed) dwarven cleric outright and dropping severial party members.
Ever since then I'm somewhat reluctant of just adding stuff to pregenerated monsters. I really believe it's not the designer's intent that a cookie-cutter monster should be upgraded with its gear.
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One requirement I have as a gm to make the world make sense is the monster must either be able to put on its own barding or be trained by someone as an animal that uses barding on it. Otherwise this makes the world not make as much sense.
Maybe the tiger trained spider monkeys to put it's barding on?
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First sighting for someone you may not be in combat with first, sure. If a tiger sees you and then immediately decides to hunt you, you are in combat if you know it or not.
If you are trying to sneak into a building, you are in combat before you fight.
No, you don't roll initiative while you are sitting in the inn, but as soon as things might get hairy, we do.
Otherwise how do you determine who is going when and where they are at.
I get what you are saying, but I have never done it that way as a player or a GM. Actually you're the first person I know of that apparently does. The way i have always done it and every GM I have played for is... combat doesn't start until the round a fight actual begins or there is a need to track rounds. Until then everyone is assumed to be going at the same time.
Like with the tiger example we wouldn't roll initiative until either the tiger attacked or the PC's spotted it and attacked. Until that moment we would count it as out of combat.
Or the sneaking into a building, again until the Rogue is spotted or decided to attack a guard or uses a potion/device that has a short duration, we would count it as out of combat and not roll.
For one it tends to speed things up and keep things a secret longer out of character. Not saying what you are doing is wrong or that I don't get why you do it. But I do think you are in the minority in how you do it.
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I haven't found anything that suggests that you have to keep making new Stealth checks every time you take a move action, only that your Stealth check is typically made as a non-action or as part of a move action. You are correct in saying that it would more or less ruin Stealth for everyone (PC and NPC alike) to have an opposed check constantly rolled (you would have to exceed your opponent's modifier by around +20 or so before you could reasonably expect to sneak past a group of orcs).
As to Perception, I see taking 10 as an option for PCs as well. I usually let players know that unless they wish otherwise, I will be assuming that they are taking 10 on Perception checks (thus allowing the PCs request I roll them if desired, and of course allowing the PCs to search for stuff manually by declaring it).
An example of how this would work out in play:
GM: "As you are wandering through the lush forest, it is warm, a bit damp, and the lightning is dim as the sun scarcely peeks through the forest canopy. I'll be assuming you are taking 10 on any Perception checks unless you wish otherwise."
P1/P2/P3: "Sounds good, let's find that temple!"
P4: "My character will specifically be on the lookout for danger. He's a bit paranoid of this jungle."
GM: "Fair enough. You travel..."Sometime later, the party is ambushed by some jungle orcs -- or more appropriately the orcs attempt to ambush them. These orc experts have a +6 Stealth modifier, so the base DC to notice them is 16 with them all taking 10 to stalk the party. Of course, as it turns out, one of the PCs who is taking 10 has a +8 Perception modifier. The guy who wanted to roll rolls and gets a 4 (but he doesn't know that), so he's apparently too busy looking where the orcs aren't (or just looking too hard).
At a range of 40 ft. away, the orcs are unseen. They creep closer to 30 ft. Still unseen. They creep 20 ft. closer. Suddenly, the guy with the 18 Perception result notices them and acts during the surprise round. Initiative is rolled. The party dispatches the orcs, and goes on about their business.
Sometime later, a mother tiger feeds her almost grown cubs the found remains of the orc bodies, and then wanders off in the direction of the scent of the party to find more food (having just watched a tiger documentary on tigers in the Sunderbans, this makes good sense to me). It is stalking its prey in classic tiger fashion. The forest is lush and filled with lots of long thin plants out and about (offering concealment but not being rough enough to warrant actual cover) so the Tiger (and anyone else) will have little difficulty finding a place to hide, since all you need is a little concealment.
The Tiger stalks the party be scent for about 1/2 a day. The party is feeling pretty confident, and the Ranger's passive +8 Perception has avoided a few pitfalls along the way (like literally, pitfalls), but they aren't aware that Sebera the Tiger is on the trail...
The Tiger finally is within sight of the party, and she first notices the large heavily armored fighter clad in mail from a distance. With a +8 Perception, she notices the not-hiding fighter from about 170 feet away. She continues to move in with her DC 21 Stealth, though the DC to spot her is about 38 from this distance...
She creeps up on the party at 20 ft. per round. Quickly enough that each time the party isn't moving at full speed, she gains a little ground. She is not only perfectly willing to ambush them when they seem distracted, but actually prefers that idea. So she continues to creep up on them. At one point, the party comes to the edge of a small river, and decides what to do. While they do, she closes in...
Sebera stalks within 40 ft. of the party (DC 25 to spot her), and then makes her move. During the surprise round (she is the only side aware of the other when combat actions are declared) she charges through the jungle and leaps onto the party's elven ranger, and suddenly OMFG a tiger!! DRAW STEEL!
This is pretty much how I have always done it as well.
I had a friend of mine who has preparing this big red dragon for his table. He rolled "full plate +3" and told me "So, if the dragon has it, why wouldn't he wear it?".
I stopped playing with him.
Well I imagine that the full plate +3 wasn't sized for a dragon, so unless the dragon wants to engage the party in humanoid form, I seriously doubt it would have much luck with that. If I had to choose between wearing +3 full plate in humanoid form or being a giant freaking dragon, I'll take the latter. :P
Regardless, I'm cool with monsters wearing their treasure, but we really could use an official word on this. When I relatively inexperienced I did exactly that (though in 3rd edition, where treasure was random): 2 trolls as a random encounter had a belt of strenght +4 and some sort of magic two-handed axe. They absolutely rolled over the level 7 party, killing the (fully buffed) dwarven cleric outright and dropping severial party members.
How in god's name did a CR 7 encounter (two CR 5 trolls) have enough treasure to afford even one of those things, with the treasure value of the encounter being 3,600 gp at best (assuming you took the 1,600 gp for a CR 5 and doubled it, instead of just taking the 2,600 gp for a CR 7 encounter).
If you rolled those treasures randomly for a CR 7 encounter (pretty hard actually since random treasure to include those would need some excessively high % rolls, and would need more than one roll on the same chart), I'd blame the random treasure rolls, not the creatures or their treasure values, because a single +4 item is at least x5 times too much gear for the whole encounter, and that's before talking magic weapons.
It sounds like something was done wrong.
Ever since then I'm somewhat reluctant of just adding stuff to pregenerated monsters. I really believe it's not the designer's intent that a cookie-cutter monster should be upgraded with its gear.
It sounds like you've had bad experiences with people doing things that are quite against the rules, but "other treasure" is undeniable.
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A round is 6 seconds. Three rounds is 18 seconds. If they are stalking you for 18 seconds and you have no idea, then surprise round->blowdart to the throat.How do you count rounds if not in initiative? If an assassin is nearby for 18 seconds they get a free death attack on you, because we aren't in initiative yet because no one has attacked anyone yet?If he observes you for three rounds in hiding before attacking, does he get a full round action when he does? Or is it a surprise round?If an assassin is observing you prior to a death attack, are you in combat?Again that is wrong Ciretose. Combat begins when someone attacks NOT when someone decides to use stealth...
It matters not where the encounter is taking place.
So your players have no opportunity to notice a death attack prior to it happening.
Nice.
That must be great fun.
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Make everyone roll initiative and go action by action even though there's no apparent threat? Would they be flat-footed when he does attack? Or not, since they've been "in combat" for three rounds?
Does the assassin get a full round action when he moves?
Yes.
The players roll initiative, they do whatever it is they want to do in the given situation (search a spot, walk over to an area, etc...) and play proceeds.
If they walk over a trap, they trigger it. If there is a threat in the room, maybe they spot it, maybe they don't.
Otherwise your just basically saying to your players "Tough luck about the strategies you might have liked to have used, the bad guys got the drop on you because I said so."
How do you count rounds if not in initiative? If an assassin is nearby for 18 seconds they get a free death attack on you, because we aren't in initiative yet because no one has attacked anyone yet?A round is 6 seconds. Three rounds is 18 seconds. If they are stalking you for 18 seconds and you have no idea, then surprise round->blowdart to the throat.So your players have no opportunity to notice a death attack prior to it happening.
Nice.
That must be great fun.
Does not compute. Combat not being active does not equate to being denied opportunity to become aware of it. Making that stretch is illogical and borderline insane reasoning. PCs still get Perception checks as appropriate.
And yes, it is nice. I mean, how useless would the assassin's ability be, what with everyone around you suddenly getting spider sense if you tried to stab someone in the crowd?
I don't see the problem. And yes, it's great fun. My PCs have encountered assassins from 3rd level and up. Humorously, I can't recall the last time a PC died to an assassin NPC. The threat is real though.
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For clarification:
You and a party are traveling. As the GM I know there is a tiger and I know the layout. I draw the layout and tell you all to put yourselves on the board in a general area (generally a path or road) then I roll a perception check for both the party and the tiger.
Regardless of outcome, we roll initiative as
If the tiger sees the party first, they can stealth in the surprise round.
If someone in the party sees the tiger first, they can act in the surprise round.
If neither sees the other, you keep rolling until one does as you aren't having a combat otherwise.
Now with the assassin, I have the party in an area where the assassin is located. Maybe hidden, maybe not. I have them roll initiative to proceed through the area.
They don't know if there are traps (in which case order matters) or if an ambush is waiting around the corner (In which case party separation matters).
They know they are moving in initiative order for some reason.
Hell, I have been at tables where the GM has them roll initiative just to stop the side conversations and get them to pay attention.
The bad guys shouldn't be able to get the drop on the good guys any easier than the good guys get the drop on them.
If your players are trying to sneak up on a bad guy, you give the bad guy checks, right?
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Characters can do stuff and have a chance to detect the assassin without being in initiative.
There's no need for initiative until the assassin makes his move, or is detected, because it doesn't matter what order things happen in.They'll get at least a chance at Perception, possibly a request for rolls, possibly a Take 10 comparison, possibly hidden rolls by the GM. I've done it different ways depending on the players preference and on how much I trust them not to metagame.
Why do they have to be in initiative?
A couple of reasons. One is positioning. The DC of the perception check is going to be based on location (amoung other things) and the easiest way to keep track of moving players is to have them move in initiative order.
Another is keeping track of what is happening round after round. Where is this person when the attack happens, what are they doing?
And most importantly, it is three rounds. What if the player moves around a corner and can't be observed? What if the player triggers a trap?
If you had an assassin PC, would you allow them a death attack without first making them play through the three rounds of observation?
And if not, why would you give the other side of the table that advantage?
A couple of reasons. One is positioning. The DC of the perception check is going to be based on location (amoung other things) and the easiest way to keep track of moving players is to have them move in initiative order.
You can't keep track of them in time? Of course you can.
Another is keeping track of what is happening round after round. Where is this person when the attack happens, what are they doing?
is your table so disorganized that you don't know what the players are doing without specifically having people act in initiative count?
And most importantly, it is three rounds. What if the player moves around a corner and can't be observed? What if the player triggers a trap?
If the assassin is observing them for 18 seconds, and before the 18 seconds the creature becomes unobservable, then the assassin would to have to start over. If the player triggers a trap, then it's (probably) the assassin's lucky day.
If you had an assassin PC, would you allow them a death attack without first making them play through the three rounds of observation?
If the enemy was not aware of them, and they wait the 18 seconds with nothing unusual occurring, then they have played through the 3 rounds and opens the battle with a surprise-round assassination attempt.
And if not, why would you give the other side of the table that advantage?
There is no advantage. The advantage is in your head. There is only advantage because you say there is. Not enough for me.
The death attack fails if the target detects the assassin or recognizes the assassin as an enemy
It is pretty clear by RAW even that you don't have to be in combat to use death attack.
As for figuring out placement of characters... that seems to happen naturally through either a marching order or role play. I have never NEEDED combat initiative to figure out who heads first down the hallway and carelessly trips the trap. Nor have I needed help figuring out bonuses/penalties on perception checks. In fact staying needlessly in combat initiative only slows down the game.
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The death attack fails if the target detects the assassin or recognizes the assassin as an enemyIt is pretty clear by RAW even that you don't have to be in combat to use death attack.
As for figuring out placement of characters... that seems to happen naturally through either a marching order or role play. I have never NEEDED combat initiative to figure out who heads first down the hallway and carelessly trips the trap. Nor have I needed help figuring out bonuses/penalties on perception checks. In fact staying needlessly in combat initiative only slows down the game.
So when a player tried a death attack on an enemy, do you make him play through the rounds or do you hand wave them?
EDIT: You also left out the line prior
"Studying the victim is a standard action."
So if you are out of initiative, why does it require a standard action?
No I don't make him go through combat unless his target perceives the threat. Same as when an enemy tries it on a PC. The 18 seconds are handled out of combat till an attack is made.
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Being in initiative gives significant advantage, as you will actually be playing out the rounds rather than hand waving them.
At this point the argument is that the assassins standard action occurs out of combat (not clear how you have standard actions outside of initiative...) then three rounds take place that aren't tracked at all, then the assassin acts.
In initiative everyone is basically doing everything at once, with slight variations within the 6 second window of who went an instant before someone else.
When you have the board drawn, people move as they will move. Who goes and in what order is as you said based on who is holding and waiting for who to go where and when based on marching order.
But rounds occur, you move a distance at a time.
I think we may not actually be as far off from each other as it seems. When I say moving in initiative I'm basically saying move in marching order.
The scout goes, then whoever is next goes, etc...if something is triggered on a turn, who is effected is determined by where people are located when it occurs.
Before actual combat occurs, you roll initiative for the battle. However people are still taking turns and making checks in the order they determined beforehand.
So for the tiger scenario, I draw the board and I roll to see who goes first. If the tiger wins I might say "Roll initiative" or I might just let them keep going in marching order turn until the tiger is either spotted or ready to attack.
At that point you roll initiative and the surprise round begins.
But prior to that, people were still moving and acting in a defined order. If the scout gets 30 feet ahead and springs a trap with a 30 foot radius, only the scout is hit.
But you don't just say "A tiger appears 40 feet from you and is now acting in the surprise round to pounce you" or "3 rounds passed and you didn't notice that guy who now killed you"
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So to be clear, it is a standard action to activate, takes 3 rounds, but all of that is before initiative.
And you can't do it at all once you are in combat and realize they are an enemy so...
You can realize people are enemies without being in combat, you know. You're an assassin. Killing people who don't know their in a fight is the whole point.
Who says you can't do it in combat? It's difficult to do if you are in combat, since you need a standard action which pretty much means you can't attack.
You could certainly hide while your buddies/minions fought and jump out and death attack after 3 rounds. You could even do it again if you found a way to hide.
And you can be in combat without realizing it if someone is pointing an arrow at you.
You have to play both sides of the table equally. If you are going to make the player take the standard action and wait the three rounds while the victim makes checks each round, you have to make the NPC do the same thing to the player.
What seems to be described is "Well, you missed the check to see them and 18 seconds passes so...sorry about your luck."
You have to wait 18 seconds whether you are in combat or not... Ciretose do you really just hand wave away most of what happens unless you are in initiative? That sounds counter productive.
If you AREN'T in initiative and instead using marching order or whatever to determine where people are then you are doing it the exact opposite of they way you made it sound like you were. In fact everyone here is using something like marching order.
Marching order was invented a long long time ago in a game far far away, in order to determine where people were in relation to each other outside of combat. You know to help with traps or spotting positions or even to know where to place the minis when combat did actually start.
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And if the victim isn't doing anything but standing there, that is fine.
Players have the right to do things.
An example. Lets say the group is sleeping and you have a player on watch during the time when the assassin would attack.
GM: Where are you standing
Player puts himself on the board outside of the tent.
GM: (rolls a hidden perception check, assassin sneaks nearby with move action unseen and starts death attack) asks player what they are doing.
Player: "I want to go in the tent and check on everyone." Player moves into tent, out of view of assassin.
Etc...
You don't know what the player will do. You have to let them do things and not just say "You were standing still for 18 seconds and you didn't see them".
Same with the tiger. You presumably drew out the board. You presumably have them moving on the board in the marching order. Why assume they don't see the 400 pound tiger before it gets within an unobstructed 80 ft?
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But prior to that, people were still moving and acting in a defined order. If the scout gets 30 feet ahead and springs a trap with a 30 foot radius, only the scout is hit.Seriously? The scout does his move and trips the trap at the end of it he's the only one there?
Not, just to be clear, the scout is staying 30' ahead of the party, but on the scouts move he walked 30' and on the next guys move in the same round he would have walked up right behind the scout, but thanks to moving in initiative he's still 30' away when the bomb goes off.Wow. That's weird.
If the scout is 30 feet ahead and a bomb with a 30 foot radius goes off, the scout is the only person within 30 feet. How is that weird?
If in combat the wizard throws a fireball, it hits who is in that spot at that time in the combat.
No one is stopping the players from doing anything Ciretose. Are you not understanding or is this a weird straw man attempt?
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You have to wait 18 seconds whether you are in combat or not... Ciretose do you really just hand wave away most of what happens unless you are in initiative? That sounds counter productive.
If you AREN'T in initiative and instead using marching order or whatever to determine where people are then you are doing it the exact opposite of they way you made it sound like you were. In fact everyone here is using something like marching order.
Marching order was invented a long long time ago in a game far far away, in order to determine where people were in relation to each other outside of combat. You know to help with traps or spotting positions or even to know where to place the minis when combat did actually start.
And marching order is functionally similar to initiative. People move in sequence, taking a move and a standard action. You have declared order rather than rolling for it.
When someone else enters into the order who isn't just agreeing to go in that order, you have to roll initiative to see when they go.
I've honestly never heard of people using initiative to determine anything outside of combat. Seems like it creates a whole slew of realism problems, like the one mentioned earlier about people marching together actually alternating between being next to each other and being 30' away, not to mention the vulnerability to accidental metagaming.
It's kinda hard to remain honest about what your character is doing when the GM tells you to roll initiative, and then nothing happens.
No the basis for this derail-iscussion is that creatures with Treasure Type: None work pretty good for the CR without any gear, and creatures with Treasure Type: NPC Gear work pretty good for the CR if they use the NPC Gear.
At least that's what I got out of it.
So we randomly pick tiger and no cooresponding NPC gear of the same level?
Dark Creeper wasn't an accidental pick. They have "other gear" listed and they are an intelligent creature. How much gear do we add to them, considering it has already been said they are very powerful for a CR 4 as is?
Dark Creeper is a CR 2 with Treasure Type: Standard
Dark Stalker is a CR 4 with Treasure Type: NPC Gear
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If your watchman on his 4 hour stretch of duty decides to check inside the tent within 18 seconds of the time the assassin got into position to study him, he's metagaming. He's choosing that time based on you saying "Roll Initiative." 18 seconds and now is the moment he chooses?
Or I suppose, he's going into the tent every minute or two, in which case the assassin will have seen the pattern from a distance and not bother because he knows the people inside will kill the watchman for not letting them sleep.
I generally ask "What are you doing on your watch" and it isn't uncommon they are patrolling a set area rather than standing in one place. That effects the rolls.
Again you are starting from the assumption the assassin can move into an area where he can observe the player without the player observing them back. The player should have at least an equal chance.
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I've honestly never heard of people using initiative to determine anything outside of combat. Seems like it creates a whole slew of realism problems, like the one mentioned earlier about people marching together actually alternating between being next to each other and being 30' away, not to mention the vulnerability to accidental metagaming.
It's kinda hard to remain honest about what your character is doing when the GM tells you to roll initiative, and then nothing happens.
Do you ask everyone what they are doing and move them simultaneously in whatever direction they are going, always moving in formation? No one checks one part of a room while someone else checks another? No on opens a door while everyone else is elsewhere?
Marching order is about determining who goes in what order. Everyone moving at once on a drawn map is something I've honestly never heard of.
When there is no map, sure, but movement and squares effect things. Particularly detailed ones.
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No the basis for this derail-iscussion is that creatures with Treasure Type: None work pretty good for the CR without any gear, and creatures with Treasure Type: NPC Gear work pretty good for the CR if they use the NPC Gear.
At least that's what I got out of it.
So we randomly pick tiger and no cooresponding NPC gear of the same level?
Dark Creeper wasn't an accidental pick. They have "other gear" listed and they are an intelligent creature. How much gear do we add to them, considering it has already been said they are very powerful for a CR 4 as is?
Dark Creeper is a CR 2 with Treasure Type: Standard
Dark Stalker is a CR 4 with Treasure Type: NPC Gear
My mistake, further illustrates the point about the gear as that would be even more equipment for what is already a high 4 CR encounter.
For clarification:
You and a party are traveling. As the GM I know there is a tiger and I know the layout. I draw the layout and tell you all to put yourselves on the board in a general area (generally a path or road) then I roll a perception check for both the party and the tiger.
How do you determine the placement? Like, how far is the tiger from the party when you roll the perception checks? I like my way because I can figure out the distances with take ten numbers, and then, when something is definitely about to happen, I let the party roll their own checks.
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This is how every group I have ever played with has played. I'm actually very confused as to how you play without having an order of who goes when.No one is stopping the players from doing anything Ciretose. Are you not understanding or is this a weird straw man attempt?
When it matters you roll initiative.
When it doesn't you don't care.When you're all walking down the hall in marching order formation, if the lead guy triggers a trap it catches everyone in range based on that formation. He didn't just run way ahead and then stop and wait for everyone to catch up.
Then what is the point of scouting ahead?
It actually doesn't lead to metagaming if this is how it's done. If anything it reduces the nova effect as you don't instantly know to buff whenever you roll initiative.
As I said, we usually do marching order on drawn boards to keep track of who is where at what time when things happen. If the party splits up (dumb move) we know who is in what room opening what door that triggers whatever is happening.
This probably should be a whole other thread.
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For clarification:
You and a party are traveling. As the GM I know there is a tiger and I know the layout. I draw the layout and tell you all to put yourselves on the board in a general area (generally a path or road) then I roll a perception check for both the party and the tiger.
How do you determine the placement? Like, how far is the tiger from the party when you roll the perception checks? I like my way because I can figure out the distances with take ten numbers, and then, when something is definitely about to happen, I let the party roll their own checks.
Generally it depends on the map. Some maps have it laid out where everyone starts, sometimes you know where the party is and you have the enemy coming in from the edge of whatever and you just keep rolling perception checks until one of them sees the other.
The tiger has an advantage of only having to see one of the party members before they see him. And even if they see something, they may not see a tiger.
So you draw the board, ask who is going first and have everyone take their actions order. If the tiger spots them first, roll initiative for the tiger and have him move (hidden) until either he attacks or is spotted.
When he is spotted, roll initiative with a surprise round.
I also have a really huge play surface (converted pool table), so it isn't uncommon to have an entire dungeon drawn (but covered and uncovered as they progress) at the beginning and for combat to be more or less ongoing as they progress through the various areas.
Stopping and redrawing is less common when you have a big table.
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This probably should be a whole other thread.
The thread should be a whole other thread.
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It's weird how the most basic thing can vary from table to table. I've always had GMs who make us move in order if we are using a drawn board, because if you took the time to draw it, you already knew something was going on.
Well...except the one GM who every once in a while would have us roll initiative just to mess with the metagamers and make them burn spells when a puppy snuck up on us. (true story, everyone is buffing for the movement in the bushes and then puppy. Then the GM said "stop metagaming" and the issue was solved)
If you are on the board, you already know something is going to happen, and in every game I've played the GMs draw a lot of details and keep track of where the actual treasure is in the room, so where you walk and look matters when searching.
I also play with people who are hardcore about both sides playing the same way and would be furious if something just appeared by GM fiat without having to make the same rolls and checks they would have to make to do something.