|
From the PRD: linkage to PRD
A portable hole is a circle of cloth spun from the webs of a phase spider interwoven with strands of ether and beams of starlight, resulting in a portable extradimensional space. When opened fully, a portable hole is 6 feet in diameter, but it can be folded up to be as small as a pocket handkerchief. When spread upon any surface, it causes an extradimensional space 10 feet deep to come into being. This hole can be picked up from inside or out by simply taking hold of the edges of the cloth and folding it up. Either way, the entrance disappears, but anything inside the hole remains, traveling with the item.
This seems to point that you can open it via either outside or in and the entrance disappears.
I would say that there is no trace left when it is picked up from the inside.
The text for portable hole does seem, to me, to support your view.
However, I would say that there would be a handkerchief sized piece left over, mostly because if you can pull the entire portable hole inside with you, you would be trap and unable to escape/access the portable hole without some manner of transplanar magic.
If no portion of the portable hole remains on the material plane, that it cannot be reopened onto the material plane. If I was the DM, and in a playful/foul mood, I would have it be recursive. You open the top and see yourself openning the top.
|
There are, indeed, all sorts of interesting tricks you can do with this kind of thing. I once allowed my players to come across a magic flask that could, with the right invocation, act as a kind of portable hole (I believe I took the idea from Rick Cook's "Wizards's World" books).
It can be used to circumvent most barriers (most barred windows, etc., don't have bars close enough together to prevent a flask passing between them), get over 15' walls, etc. But it could still serve as a mundane flask, so it would pass casual scrutiny.
If you take it literally by wording, it does not get any smaller than a folded up handkerchief (as small as, by wording), then you also have take it literally that once folded up from INSIDE (or outside) the entrance disappears. With that said, you can open it from inside or outside the same, as ONLY the entrance disappears, not the item.
You would be incorrect that no trace of the ITEM remains on the material plane, but correct in the fact that the OPENING does not exist on the material plane.
You would also be incorrect for arguing with the DM after he has made his ruling....his job it to keep the game running smoothly and not be bogged down all night arguing over rules.
Bif,
I believe you will not get the support you are so clearly wanting here as to debating/arguing with the DM.
DM's can indeed be wrong, but are NEVER wrong in making a decision to keep the game running smoothy. I have been running games for well over 25 years and I can tell you that NOTHING ruins having fun worse than rules-lawyers wanting to argue for an hour over little things.
And as for how I look at running games, I will certainly listen to your concerns, but after hearing all of the issues, will make the decision and we will move on.
I understand you are upset that the item did not work the way you intended (although it clearly states "as small as a handkerchief"), but it still a party-staple item that is so useful it is almost required. You can still use it like you wanted. Find an out-of-the-way spot to use it in.
I wasn't intending to get into a squabble over DM-always-rght vs. Rules-Lawyering with you, nor make a personal attack. Your original post had you in a disagreement with your DMs call of the Portable Hole.
The original statement I made was that the description CLEARLY states that the Portable Hole can be folded up "as small as a handkerchief" and that only the opening disappears.
You stated that your DM ignores the " logical impossibilities his version creates don't seem to bother him" but your idea of how the item should work is even worse. You claim "that you can close a portable hole from the inside and no trace of it would exist in the material plane"......how would you even open it again if "no trace of it exists on the Material Plane?". Would it not simply be gone forever? If your answer is "No, some trace of it remains" then you MUST go with the item description as to how small it can be made (and thus picked up and opened from the outside).
I am not jaded from years of DMing at all. As I stated I listen to players objections and make the ruling that needs to be made to go on with the advanture. Not a single person benefits from arguing all night about rules. If the player is right, the player is right. If the player is wrong then he/she needs to get over it and go with the DM ruling.
<<<---- Olive Branch. Argument and bad feelins over I hope.
Ok... disputes aside this was the discussion as I presented it when it came in one of my groups. I want to be clear, we decided to house-rule it so it functioned like Bif is suggesting. But it was a house-rule, so very much not RAW.
The problem with the Portable Hole as a hiding spot is one that exists in 3.5 and Pathfinder (and the reading is very similar in both). If you close a portable hole from the inside and somehow pull it inside itself, where does it open to? Some would say that "logic" dictates it opens to the last place it was set down. However, it doesn't say that. It clearly says the things inside "travel with the item." Well if there is no trace of it left in the material plan, the item is inside itself. Logic just left the building. Spreading it out would lead nowhere or function like some weird Aperture portal.
To work, the item has to remain in the mortal plane when closed, OR you have to house rule that it opens back to the last place it was. I can hear people saying, "But it says you can close it from inside." Correct. I can also lock myself out of my own car. It doesn't make either an advised choice. Allowing the portal to be pulled inside itself only works if the player can then somehow leave a non-dimensional space. I honestly don't know if there are any spells that can do that.
Love the Keys/Car analogy.
Reading it the way it's written, it would seem to me that if you close it from the inside, you're left with a hankerchief sized cloth on the inside of the hole and nothing exists on the outside.
If you open the hole again while inside, the hole would open to the spot you closed it at because it technically hasn't moved.
I tell my players how are you going to ask that question? I tell them that your research indicates that if you're successful in fully closing the hole from the inside you may succeed in creating the perfect hiding place. Or that you may succeed in permanently disconnecting yourself from the entire planar structure creating a space that you can't plane shift, teleport, or gate out of.
Then I tell them that there's one way to find out......
And what if they do it anyway? You still have to make a decision.
I think the idea that you'd be trapped forever is ridiculous because they wouldn't bother telling you you can close it from the inside if it means the death of the character anyway.
The only thing I think is in question here is whether there is a black cloth left behind in the real world when you close the whole.
I don't think there is because if you close it from the inside, then you have the cloth in your hands.