Unenthusiatic players

[ubiquitous]

I've been playing Pathfinder with the same group since the beginning of this year, which is made up of a bunch of friends who all know each-other through university and gaming. There's twelve of us in the group, and we're currently split into two tables, both running the S&S AP, since everyone seemed pretty sold on the idea of a pirate-themed adventure.

Lately, myself and the other GM have been having issues with a few of the players that just aren't very enthusiastic about the game. They turn up fairly regularly to play, but they're difficult to try and get invested. They're easily distracted, don't contribute much, and give the overall impression that they're just turning up because they feel they have to.

Now, we've discussed this with them in the past, as it's a continuous struggle with these people to get them involved, and they'll either vehemently deny their lack of interest, or pin the blame on us, the GMs, for not making the game cater to their particular interests (not that they try to communicate with us, for instance, one player wrote down that their character had a monkey, and the first their GM knew of it was when they complained that the GM wasn't saying what was happening to their monkey in one scene).

Basically, we figure that these players are just turning up because they don't want to feel "left out" of activities that our group of friends is doing, but they're not actually very interested in playing Pathfinder. I've come to the forums because I don't know how I can resolve the situation. I could ask them to not turn up to games, but they'd take that as a personal offence. They're fine people when we're playing other games that suit them better, just not Pathfinder.

[Irontruth]

Just to get the math right...

12 friends, 2 tables, GM's included. So, GM + 5 players at each table

Honestly, there's nothing you can do. They have to make the decision to show up and have fun. If 4/5 players are having fun at each table, the 5th player needs to work with the GM to figure out how to improve their experience, but the GM can't be expected to reconfigure the entire game to suit that one person.

My suggestion is to talk to them, and ask them for solutions to improve their game experience. Tell them you are willing to accommodate them and assist them, but right now the onus is on them. It has to be their solution and they have to carry it out. You can make room for their ideas, help lay groundwork, do your normal GM'ly duties in responding to their ideas, etc.

[Alitan]

I've seen this a couple of times, over the years, often in larger groups. Is there an alternate game going on at all? Not that you ought to feel obliged to have a second game "on tap," but if they really aren't interested/don't play well in Pathfinder, some sort of alternating game schedule, if there's another game the rest of the group wants to play, TOO, would make it easier to include your laggards...

Which doesn't necessarily solve your Pathfinder problem, if you don't want to ask them to change their approach or go away...

And have they got any goals or aspirations for their characters? It's possible they are dissatisfied with what they're playing in the game, rather than with the game, itself.

I don't know, I'm not naturally inclined to put up with consistently-distracted players... and have had the fortune to be involved mostly in games wherein everyone at the table wanted to take away a piece of something on it; everybody schemes, and everyone is engaged.

I guess the real question is, is it more important that these guys are your friends, or that they play the game?

If they're your friends, you may have to put up with a certain amount of irksome stuff; friends do that occasionally.

Do you have more fun with them in another system? How committed IS everyone else to Pathfinder?

It might be worth it to switch games.

Or you might resign yourself to nudging them now and again to pay attention and do sumpin'.

Or you might decide to ask them to take a break and see what happens.

I don't know if I've actually said anything that will help with this situation... sorry if it's just ramble. Good luck.

[Pan]

How often do you switch up games? It helps sometimes to run an AP for a certain amount of time dependent on how often you meet then switch it up. Our group tends to play one AP for about 3 months with a game every other week. Then we switch to Cthulhu, burning wheel, savage worlds, board games, etc etc....

They hang out with y'all because you're cool. They may not want to stick with Pathfinder but that may be easier to take if they get a break once in awhile. Something to consider you really won't want to hear the alternative.

[Dark_Mistress]

I have a couple of questions.

1) How many of the players seems to just want to show up and roll dice and not get invested?

2) Is this distracting to the players who do want to show up and invest in the game?

3) How many players are in group two?

Knowing these three answers will help me with my response.

[thenobledrake]

This sounds like a situation I was in a few years back with one player - I would need the info others have asked for to be sure...

The fella in my group wanted to game with us because he liked to hang out with everybody - he didn't like having to really invest effort in the game though. He wanted to sit back and listen/watch most of the time, and then do something cool for the group on his turn - goal: help out and get a little spotlight for doing so.

The problem was really that I wanted more from him and was trying to force him into compliance.

I wanted him to know what each mini on the table represented, he didn't want to even pay enough attention to that to avoid mis-steps like moving the minotaur mini (someone else's character) because he forgot that he wasn't playing a minotaur (ever, actually).

I wanted him to know what the enemies were, he wanted to deal with "the nearest bad guy".

I wanted him to pay enough attention to what was going on to have all his actions ready once I told him it was his turn, he wanted a more relaxed pace of play that included him being brought up to speed once I told him it was his turn so he could then think out what to do in that exact moment.

We butted heads on the issue because he was decreasing the amount of fun I was having by accentuating issues I was having with the game we were playing at the time - and for a couple years he was no longer part of the group because of it (he stormed out during a session where I was trying to speed him along, and I asked him not to come back - just for the record).

He has returned though, and the pair of us are enjoying the game with each other - I only use the battle-mat when it is necessary due to number of foes or complexity of combat terrain or scenario and either use minis that represent exactly what something is or use minis for the PCs and dice for the enemies so the mini-related issues are completely gone... and because we are all working with theatre of the mind combat, nobody feels his turns are taking much longer than theirs because they ask for a situation update sometimes too.

This post turned way long... so here is a TL;DR version: You sure the problem isn't a clash caused by differing expectations?

Advice: compromise - give them slack for being a little un-interested most of the time, and then wiggle in something interesting for them here and there to show that you are at least trying.

[wraithstrike]

I would ask them what would interest their characters, and tell them that I am not a mind reader(particular for the player with the monkey).

[ubiquitous]

Thanks for the input everyone.

@Pan:

We haven't recently, although we sometimes play board games on other days, often with similar levels of engagement on their part. We used to play 4E, which is how we introduced them to the hobby, but switched to Pathfinder this year. It just feels like RPGs aren't their thing, but ever since we introduced them they insist on wanting to play.

@Dark_Mistress:

We have six players in one group, four in the other. I GM the smaller group. They would be balanced, but the 6th player joined midway through, and I was too busy that week to integrate them into my group.

There's mainly two players we have an issue with. A couple, who I'll call Ana and Bob. (There's kind of a third player, but - given the right circumstances - she can get invested, so I'm not quite so worried about her).

Ana's in the larger group (we had to split the two because they don't play well together), and spends the majority of her time dead silent, then complain afterwards that she felt like she didn't get to do anything or things didn't go her way. Her GM feels like it's a struggle to get her involved in any way, and it throws him off whatever interaction he may have had going with other members in the group.

Bob is in my group, and the other players find it difficult to play with him at times. Two of them are a little inexperienced and don't feel comfortable getting into character in any way as he almost never does. The third is very enthusiastic and a great player, but lately can often only make 1/3 of the sessions due to sporting commitments.

Bob metagames a lot, finds combat dull, and doesn't get engaged in narrative. The only times I've seen him interested in the game is when he messes with other players (in a detrimental way), and with the ship management stuff in S&S. I'm finding this difficult, because I'm a much stronger narrative GM than I am a ship management simulator GM (he's an avid EVE player, so perhaps I should've expected this behaviour)

Reading all that over, I'd bump up Bob to a "problem player" more than just unenthusiastic. We've had issues with him in the past playing chaotic stupid characters and wanting to steal or attack other PCs, but we'd talked to him about that and now - instead of causing other players grief - he just mostly looks bored.

I'm honestly not sure what to do with them. I'm guessing we ought to sit them down and have a "what are you looking to get out of this" talk, which we haven't had for a while.

[Dark_Mistress]

Hmm well pity, if you had 4 who was just there to roll dice you could put them all in one group and then get the more serious group together.

Having one in a larger group tends to be less of a problem, If the rest of the group carries it. Having a problem player in a group of 4 with 2 new players though I can see being a problem.

If they are both causing problems and making the game less fun for you two the GM's and the other players. Then you need to talk to them, if talking doesn't work. Then it might be time to dump them. Playing is meant to be fun and if they are sucking the fun out of it, then whats the point.

If you do end up dumping the two you would just need to switch one of the players from the other group so you both have 4 players.

I have dealt with players like both types before. So far my track record is pretty bad, just seems they never want to change. Virtually every time the group decided to drop them and find someone else to fill their spot.

Best of luck.