Hey all - thanks for your help! Trying to make a quasi-Thundercat kind of character, not terribly optimized (I like some skill evolutions and flight plus other fun stuff), but I do want to make sure what I have is solid.
My character will ideally be a 1st level Monk (Maneuver Master)/Synth, quadruped form. I start with the Bite and Limbs (Legs) and Limbs (Legs) evolutions for free.
So some questions - I've checked the forums, and still don't have definitive answers - any help appreciated.
1. Assuming no other evolutions, can I make an Unarmed Strike? I would assume that I can make exactly one (with a knee, a foot, an elbow, whatever). I am assuming yes on this one, say Unarmed Strike w/ left knee.
2. If #1 is yes, then can I take a second attack with the opposite limb, say Unarmed Strike w/ right knee, with all the appropriate penalties for multi-weapon fighting?
3. Next add the evolution: Claws (Legs/Paws). Again, can I make an Unarmed Strike? Can I make a second attack as in #2? And, for either, can I make all of my natural attacks (Bite/Claw/Claw, secondary and at -5)? Again, I'm assuming yes, as long as each limb/head only makes one attack, so I'm thinking Unarmed Strike w/ left knee, Unarmed Strike w/ right knee, Bite w/ head, Claw w/ left paw, Claw w/ right paw. (so with penalties and TWF that'd be -2/-2/-5/-5/-5)
3. Can I add the evolution: Limbs (Arms), to a quadruped, and use both hands for off-hand (though with full Strength damage bonuses) Unarmed Strikes? I know I could put a light weapon in each hand and have an attack w/ each hand (at appropriate penalties), and you treat Unarmed Strikes as light weapons, so this seems viable.
4. Can the evolution: Reach be taken with a weapon (for example, Greatsword), and thus you stretch out whenever using that particular attack? If it is taken for an evolution: Claws, would it apply to both claws?
5. Massive tangent - what happens when you, the Synthesist, cast Unfetter on your Eidolon? Does it stay in form, but now it can be effected by regular healing spells, while you can no longer access its temporary hitpoints nor heal it via yours? (I would think this situation.)
Like I said - thanks! I'm not trying to screw the other players or min-max to the extreme, but I really like the concept of the class and want to make sure I'm playing it correctly via the rules of the game.
And just as a follow-up, would this be the way that a Synthesist/Monk, quadruped form, with a single Limbs (arms) evolution and using Unarmed Strikes, with TWF, look, upon a full-attack?
Head / Bite / -5 to hit, 1/2 Strength
Left front limb (leg) / UAS / -2 to hit, full Strength
Right front limb (leg) / UAS / -2 to hit, full Strength
Left back limb (leg) / Claw / -5 to hit, 1/2 Strength
Right back limb (leg) / Claw / -5 to hit, 1/2 Strength
Left middle limb (arm) / UAS / -2 to hit, full Strength
Right middle limb (arm) / UAS / -2 to hit, full Strength
A few things. All your attacks suffer from the twf Penalty. Also eidolon cannot have claws on their hind legs.
Basically an eidolon with +6 baby 2 claws and a bite is like this.
UAS +4/-1
Offhand attack +4
Bite -1
Claw -1
Claw -1
Lastly your maneuver from maneuver master would be +2
All your natural attacks in this combo are at -7 the maneuver is at -4 and the strikes are at -2.
Also I think the ability to strike with any part of your body was a feature of the original flurry of blows which you no longer have.
Edit also you no longer have the class feature making your offhand UAS do full str damage. So your damage for offhand is half.
If you want a Thundercat, just have a catfolk fighter with a magical sword that grows larger when you use it's command word; alternatively, he could be a barbarian whose fur and other feline features change when raging.
Mojorat wrote: A few things. All your attacks suffer from the twf Penalty. Also eidolon cannot have claws on their hind legs. Are you certain about this? I thought TWF/MWF only effected iterative attacks, and that natural weapons were either, on their own, primary or secondary, and if secondary, you would only apply a -5 penalty to hit. And I looked around A LOT - it seems that you can have claws on hind legs - but only once can you apply them to a limbs (legs) - so either front or back legs, but that's it.
Mojorat wrote: Lastly your maneuver from maneuver master would be +2 I hadn't gotten to this yet, but I thought you had a -2 to begin with (assuming with a Flurry of Maneuvers), but no penalties from TWF/MWF should be applied (I thought) - would I be wrong here?
Mojorat wrote: Also I think the ability to strike with any part of your body was a feature of the original flurry of blows which you no longer have. also you no longer have the class feature making your offhand UAS do full str damage. So your damage for offhand is half. I'm pretty sure that's the Unarmed Strike feature of the monk, which I should still have. The any part of your body is just the fluff on the attacking - well, kinda - but I'm trying to sift through the fluff for the actual game rules and mechanics :) And remember, I'm not doing a Flurry of Blows, I'm trying to use TWF/MWF with extra limbs (arms).
And Choco, true, if I was going to duplicate Liono (which I though of :)
but I'm just looking in that general direction, not a specific cat.
Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
I made a synthesist/monk character, and I found it simplest it completely ignore flurry of blows and unarmed strikes. I used the Master of Many Styles archetype so that I would get something else instead of flurry, and then I used the Feral Combat Training feat so that I could use claw attacks with monk feats (such as stunning fist and combat styles).
Anyway, to answer your questions:
1. Yes, and you can make more if you increase your BAB. You can flurry if you don't mix in natural attacks.
2. Yes, but all natural attacks that you use while making unarmed strikes would become secondary attacks (-5 penalty).
3. Hmm, I don't think so. Generally you can't use both hands to do full strength damage with unarmed strikes.
4. Hmm, I'm surprised, but it doesn't state that reach has to be applied to a natural attack... so I would say yes. Also, yes it would apply to both claws.
5. It doesn't work, unless you have the 16th level synthesist ability that lets your eidolon function as a normal eidolon. Technically, you could say this no longer works because you no longer have the Life Link ability (the spell mentions that it breaks the life link).
If you take a to hit penalty it applies to all your attacks unless specified otherwise.
So your Nat attacks suffer twf and secondary Nat attack penalties at -7 and the maneuver master maneuver gets -4. If you applied power attack at the baby of my first example +6)
All UAS would be at -4 all Nat attacks at -9 and the free maneuver would be at -6.
Also I re read monks flurry of blows the ability to use any part of your body and do full damage with punches is part of the original flurry. The maneuver master replaces flurry of blows with a wholly new ability which is the only reason this Nat attack flurry combo of yours works with twf.
Basically you can have your cake or eat it not both.
Mojorat wrote: If you take a to hit penalty it applies to all your attacks unless specified otherwise. Benefit: Penalties for fighting with multiple weapons are reduced by –2 with the primary hand and by –6 with off hands.
Normal: A creature without this feat takes a –6 penalty on attacks made with its primary hand and a –10 penalty on attacks made with all of its off hands. (It has one primary hand, and all the others are off hands.)
Pretty sure TWF/MWF are only talking about Weapon/UAS attacks - natural attacks are something different, and not applied. If they were, then any time you had a single natural attack along with a weapon attack, you'd be walking into the realm of TWF, along with the associated penalties.
"Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their available natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack’s original type."
So, as I've read and seen played, natural attacks are never considered off hands, but either primary or secondary, with a flat -5 to the attack if secondary - TWF/MWF has penalties that only apply to primary hands and off hands.
As for the free maneuver and the penalties that you would apply to that, I'm actually unsure the rule on that. It's a free maneuver, and doesn't have to be from any determinate source (primary/off hand/secondary/whatever), so I would assume you apply the -2 from Flurry of Maneuvers, add BAB and STR and other bonuses, to get your CMB. (?)
For the Unarmed Strikes, I am pulling from the Monk information:
"At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk's attacks may be with fist, elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may make unarmed strikes with his hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply his full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all his unarmed strikes."
This seems, as RAW and RAI, a Monk, regardless of body-type, gets one normal UAS, can take another with an appropriate limb and using TWF rules, and by adding more limbs, move into the MWF rules.
In regards to the strength thing, seems I glanced over it quickly and missed it is mentioned in both UAS and flurry. My apologies. Really mixing manufactured or UAS attacks with natural attacks can apply a lot of penalties I would go with just using nest attacks with the maneuver thing. Tripping the target first or grappling them then doing your Nat attacks will hurt allot and with a quadruped you can get rake.
This way is effective and removes a lot of confusing numbers.
But in regards to twf the penalty applies to every attack that round from whatever source.
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