Actually WBL does matter, but how much it matters depends on how far the party is away from it, and in which direction. How the GM runs his games is also a factor, as well as the talent of the player.
I would take the first fighter in most situations, since needing a fighter to do damage is more likely to happen than needing one designed for battlefield control. The bonuses to saves can also be a big factor. Magic items make a big difference, not only with regard to numbers which determine chance of success among, other things, but because magic items give options that might not have a number attached to them directly, such as flight.
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Wealth by Level matters in the sense that certain things get a bit more difficult to fight if your less prepared for them. DR especially can become a problem if people aren't using the best tool for the job.
Usually being over WBL is more damaging to a campaign then being under it, depending on the GM and certain other factors.
Wealth does Matter! 10% les or more is not an issue. Double or half is!
Take level 7: normal 23.500 GP. A fighter can buy a +2 weapon(8000), Bag of holding(2500). +2 Full plate Armor(5500), +2 on strength. (4000). And some minor stuff, backup weapons etc.
Giving him double: 47.000. A +3 Weapon(18.000), +4 Strength(16.000)+ something extra. +2 ring of defending(8000),amulet of natural armor +1(4000)
The weapon can bypass dmg reducion (silver or cold iron) it actually should'nt. You Armor Class is 3 Better. You strength is 2 higer. Problaly something about 24.
I have played a lot of level between 10-15. Level 13 gives normal someting about 140000 gp. Double this amount and you can buy insane thing for you level. 260 is something about level 15/16.
BTW, double (or half) WBL is only 2 levels away.
My point is that most of the recent conversations on WBL here seem pointless. I don't see how it matters if my sorcerer gets +1 to his saves or +3 from magic when the game allows me, in my ignorance, to pick magic missile and lightning bolt instead of enlarge and haste. WBL is such a small part of this game, it is hardly worth the words spent writing about it.What exactly is the point Crane? You have a DM who sticks by WBL and you want more?
WBL is nothing more than a rough guideline. Depending on campaign sometimes more is needed, sometimes less.
The real point isn't the odd extra plus, it's the extra options.
Which would you rather have, a barbarian with a slightly better sword, or a barbarian who can charge up the wall and across the ceiling to skewer something hiding there?
A sorcerer with +1 to saves casting lightning bolt, or a flying, firebreathing sorcerer with illusions at their beck and call (before they start using spells for anything)
Or a flying, firebreathing fighter with illusions at their beck and call?
A rogue that's slightly more diplomatic or a rogue that can completely obscure the area and get away once a day, every day?
It's what you buy with your WBL+ that can change things, just as much (or more) than the character's build.
My point is that most of the recent conversations on WBL here seem pointless. I don't see how it matters if my sorcerer gets +1 to his saves or +3 from magic when the game allows me, in my ignorance, to pick magic missile and lightning bolt instead of enlarge and haste. WBL is such a small part of this game, it is hardly worth the words spent writing about it.What exactly is the point Crane? You have a DM who sticks by WBL and you want more?
WBL is nothing more than a rough guideline. Depending on campaign sometimes more is needed, sometimes less.
If you have a fighter with gear and another without gear, all things being equal the one with gear will vastly outperform the other one, all things being equal.
There have been many threads with GM's giving too much wealth out, and it causing trouble. As a GM who did such things, when I first started this is something I can attest to.
If you think it is a small part of the game the make a two handed fighter without only half of the proper amount of WBL between levels 10 and 13, which is level that many of us play at. I will make another one with full WBL, and see how they perform. To keep things even we can even use 2-handed weapons since they don't require as much wealth as TWF'ers, archers, or Sword and Board types.
We can run them through scenarios, just like we did for the monk, and see if there is very noticable difference. If the difference is small enough, that most of us would not care then you may have a point.
I would also suggest that we use the same race to avoid muddying the waters.
20 point buy
APG,UC,UM,CRB
2 traits
You can choose the level between 10 and 13<--levels most comparison are made at.
Before I go any farther I will say that magic items do a lot more than buying one stat down to 8 will. :)
1. You pick the levels as detailed above.
2.(either 2A or 2B) --I think 2A is faster.
2A. You pick the feats, and I get to change 4 of them.
2B We should both pick the feats. That keeps things fair.
3. No RP based feats though. That does not mean you can't take skill focus(diplomacy) as an example*. It means the feat must actually provide a benefit to the character. Skill Focus(profession:X) is not really helpful since professions are generally not useful unless a GM goes out of his way to make them useful.
*It is not a feat most people take as fighters, but it does give them something to do besides hit things, and it makes sense if a fighter is meant to be in a game instead of win a DPR contest.
PS:I did see someone say profession skills can be used in place of knowledge checks, but I could not find such a rule. To avoid playstyle interfering in this too much we will stick with rules(RAI) or GM Fiat.
PS2: Both fighters should have the same feats, except for the four I might change.
Wraith, my point was that if character power is on a scale from one to 10, doubling WBL isn't anymore than a +/- 1 where character build is -/+5. Fretting over WBL to me is like changing the oil in a totaled car. There isn't much of a point.
A 10 point scale is hard to judge by since one person's 5 is another person's 8.
What I can say is that WBL has a big increase in the effectiveness of a character. It has just as much of an effective as someone choosing bad feats, assuming the player spends his money wisely that is. Comparing to an oil change is far from accurate.
At 12th level my fighter would have several potions of fly, and be able to do a lot more damage. He would also be better at out of combat things such as diplomacy, and survival. His higher AC would make him harder to hit. The saves would be noticeably higher. Playing in a group where teamwork is promoted means that after haste is cast the fighter with the money pulls away even more. If the party is not about teamwork, the the fighter could buy boots of speed, but he would have to give up something somewhere else.
Offense noticeably better for melee and ranged attacks=check
Defense better all round and on a very note worthy scale=check
Out of combat utility better=check
I am sure the fighter with WBL can last a couple of rounds longer, and kill things a couple of rounds faster. That not only makes them easier on that fighter, but it saves the party's resources, making the next fight easier.
If we take it from a fighter to a more all around character like an inquisitor then his ability to buy stat boosting items, and specific skill boosting items, also makes him a lot better, all the way around.
It will be a small margin, but a large one. I would compare it to a car having a jet engine instead of one with a normal engine.
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What is the power of steel, compared to the hand that wields it?
Ahhh yes, the riddle of steel!
But the thing is, items and build are separate, and you can optimize either, or not. It also completely depend on what kind of play you are optimized for. A charisma fighter might do well in a social role-play campaign, and some options are great for NPCs if not PCs.
I figured out what WBL, half wbl, and 2X WBL does for a tenth level fighter. It could be optimized to much greater effect if that was the goal.
10th level fighter WBL break down
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What I can say is that WBL has a big increase in the effectiveness of a character. It has just as much of an effective as someone choosing bad feats, assuming the player spends his money wisely that is. Comparing to an oil change is far from accurate.
The difference is ithat the player can hand-pick his feats. Whereas every game I've ever played, the treasure that you find or items that are availible in Ye Olde Magic Shop are NOT something that the player gets to hand-pick. I know that in the age of player entitlement some players DO get to hand the GM their shopping list and the GM makes sure that Ye Olde Magic Shop has those items, but I've never played that way, and I doubt if I'm alone.
You migiht think you absolutely need the Gloves of Dueling and are absolutely non-viable without them, but there's a lot of other players out there who have managed just fine.
That's why when I compare a character build, I give them mundane equipment, and then only the necessities. Because otherwise you aren't comparing the CHARACTER build, you're comparing the EQUIPMENT build. And that's something that the player shouldn't have full control over.
Even if I play in a game where I can't get every item I, which seems to be all of them, having WBL is better than having half of WBL.
Normally when I GM the players find themselves above or below WBL at certain points. When I finally throw in the a large amount of treasure the difference is always noted, even though the list is never cherry picked.
Actually the equipment is only a part of the equation. If you have good equipment but the build sucks the character is still in trouble, so to say you are comparing EQUIPMENT is very inaccurate.
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Cranewings:
WBL serves two purposes.
For players in the game, its a measure of their relative cash compared to each other, used to compare the group against the CR you are having them fight.
While its true that level to level it doesn't matter too terribly much, being say half off all the time *as a group* makes a huge difference. It means spellcasters DC's are lower and that melee's attacks and damages do less.
You think +1 isn't a big deal until its +1 for every aspect of every character on the field.. the suddenly that +1 adds up.
And the game designers design critters with WBL in mind. They assume you'll have access to teh appropriate wealth to buy the appropriate gear. Thats part of the critter's CR calculation.
(its also why "low magic" shouldn't just mean "fewer magical items". it actually requires a system-rewrite to do correctly)
The second purpose is for we forum pundits. if Wraithstrike and I want to compare fighters we can say "we'll be level 10 and WBL" or "level 8 and WBL of a 10th level" or whatever we want- but that puts us at an even level. Both against each other, and so we know how it'll relate to CR.
If we both build characters with the same WBL as each other, then have it combat critters of a given CR we can evaluate how they do. Without WBL then the money is just random since it has no basis in the CR level.
For example:
if we both made 10th level characters with 100k but there was no WBL, how would we know if the comparison was correct for any given CR? It would make it difficult not only to compare builds (since every single time you'd also have to stipulate your arbitrary amount of cash) but to do so with any meanginfulness in regards to monster balance.
"Well of course its balanced if you give your guy 200k. try 20k, and see how well it goes".
And all that doesn't even necessarily mean that your PC's should be "at" wbl. I'm in A RotL campaign right now there there are regularly 7 players sitting around the table. It's hard to know for sure but I'd bet we're maybe 1/2 WBL. And we steam roll everything we come across, near enough. Even at half wbl the DM is having to add a ton of things to the encounters just to keep it from being a 2 round fight. He's constantly trying to push the "challenge' line without tripping over the "you are all dead" line.
WBL definately matters- but its just a guideline for determine relative power vs any given CR, and even that breaks down the further you get from 4 PC's.
-S