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I just want to pipe in, with no ninjitsu training, about my own martial experiences. I have studied Tang Soo Do (black belt), Tae Kwan Do (black belt), Wing Chun Kung Fu (Purple sash), Boxing and Kickboxing (not the Taiwanese version), and I just recently joined a Wushu school and am starting trainin in that......
Every style is of the belief that they do IT the right way and that their way is superior. This is not true, however every style of training has useful and good techniques to learn that obviously were used to good effect at some point in history, from greco-roman wrestling to karates to fencing to.....etc.
My suggestion is to learn the style you are being taught, as it is being taught. Keep your mind open and absorb what you are learning BUT keep your eyes open to the weaknesses of the style and figure out what you would do differently to fix that weakness in a combat situation.
I may have studied many things but I have one fighting style....Kick-ass-when-I-need-to style. It is made up of all the good techniques I have learned blended together into what I will use if I need to defend myself or others. You are on your way to creating your own style but only by absorbing a style and filtering through it will you be able to separate the good from the not-so-good techniques.
I'm not a fighter myself, but half an hour of google, two messageboards and a dozen videos later I think I have your answers. It's not a powerful punch but it seems to have a good amount of range and apparently can be used to close the distance against kickers or weapon users or to initiate a fight before your opponent.
But your trainers belief is totally bonkers, considering that ninjutsu does have a lot of other strikes that aren't like that. The lunge punch is just one technique, the others are more similar to normal boxing techniques.
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My personal opinion of a *ninja punch* is something along the lines of...
"If you're a Ninja, and you are punching something has gone terribly wrong."
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Ninjutsu is a misnomer applied to taijutsu, if memory serves.
Do keep in mind that there are plenty of martial arts schools out there that are not actually teaching you martial arts any more than a kid copying moves he saw on Street Fighter can, even if the instructor might believe it.
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You want to learn how to fight? Get in fights. You'll either get tired of getting your butt kicked and adapt, or you won't.
All this "belt" noise just means you stayed with it long enough to get a gold star from the teacher. It means zip when it comes to whether or not you can take care of yourself. For every "black belt" holder that can actually fight, there are a ton that probably couldn't beat up Nelson from the Simpsons.
If you'e taking martial arts for fitness and whatnot, right on. If you're trying to learn how to fight, go to prison for a while. It'll be a lot more productive.
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My personal opinion of a *ninja punch* is something along the lines of...
"If you're a Ninja, and you are punching something has gone terribly wrong."
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Yeah, I expect a Ninja class to include more free solo climbing, homemade fireworks and toxic plant extracts.
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You want to learn how to fight? Get in fights. You'll either get tired of getting your butt kicked and adapt, or you won't.
All this "belt" noise just means you stayed with it long enough to get a gold star from the teacher. It means zip when it comes to whether or not you can take care of yourself. For every "black belt" holder that can actually fight, there are a ton that probably couldn't beat up Nelson from the Simpsons.
If you'e taking martial arts for fitness and whatnot, right on. If you're trying to learn how to fight, go to prison for a while. It'll be a lot more productive.
I believe the only person to post anything about belts was me so is this a post against me? I will try to assume not.
I have known many black belts that thought they were the shiznit when in reality they couldn't handle a street fight to save their lives. I have also known many who trained with more of a focus towards what happens in a real fight that could actually fight. Picking on the belt system and saying stuff like "get in fights or go to prison to learn how to fight" is pretty stupid IMO. Mostly all you learn there is how to get your a$$ beat by someone big who has fighting instincts.
Training in a martial arts style will give you tools to use but only if you supply the fighting instinct and an eye towards what is practical in the street.
I don't think committing a felony is the right way to get training in combat. I think walking around looking to punch someone is also a pretty idiotic idea for learning to fight.
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If you're trying to learn how to fight, go to prison for a while.
That's your answer for everything!
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You want to learn how to fight? Get in fights. You'll either get tired of getting your butt kicked and adapt, or you won't.
All this "belt" noise just means you stayed with it long enough to get a gold star from the teacher. It means zip when it comes to whether or not you can take care of yourself. For every "black belt" holder that can actually fight, there are a ton that probably couldn't beat up Nelson from the Simpsons.
If you'e taking martial arts for fitness and whatnot, right on. If you're trying to learn how to fight, go to prison for a while. It'll be a lot more productive.
I believe the only person to post anything about belts was me so is this a post against me? I will try to assume not.
I have known many black belts that thought they were the shiznit when in reality they couldn't handle a street fight to save their lives. I have also known many who trained with more of a focus towards what happens in a real fight that could actually fight. Picking on the belt system and saying stuff like "get in fights or go to prison to learn how to fight" is pretty stupid IMO. Mostly all you learn there is how to get your a$$ beat by someone big who has fighting instincts.
Training in a martial arts style will give you tools to use but only if you supply the fighting instinct and an eye towards what is practical in the street.
I don't think committing a felony is the right way to get training in combat. I think walking around looking to punch someone is also a pretty idiotic idea for learning to fight.
Dude, if you want to learn how to do something, you do it. If you want to learn how to look pretty, you join 95% of the completely worthless martial arts schools in the country. Martial arts schools aren't about learning how to fight, they're about taking your money and letting you think you know how to fight.
My point was, why are you taking a martial arts class if you want to learn how to fight? They're great for getting in shape, but they're pointless otherwise. Like you said, they just get a bunch of people thinking they're Bruce Lee, when they're really Bruce Vilanch.
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Dude, if you want to learn how to do something, you do it. If you want to learn how to look pretty, you join 95% of the completely worthless martial arts schools in the country. Martial arts schools aren't about learning how to fight, they're about taking your money and letting you think you know how to fight.
My point was, why are you taking a martial arts class if you want to learn how to fight? They're great for getting in shape, but they're pointless otherwise. Like you said, they just get a bunch of people thinking they're Bruce Lee, when they're really Bruce Vilanch.
Certainly taking liberties with my posts aren't you? Never said anything like the bolded part of your statement. You seem to have a very large prejudice against Martial Arts Schools so it is gonna be pointless to argue with you. I get it, you went to prison and you are a bada$$ fighting machine and all other ways to learn to fight only makes people pu$$ys. I been to jail and it wasn't the "fight club" you seem to make it into although some places are rougher than others.
Everything you ever learn in life is taught to you. You don't just jump out of a plane, you learn how to pack a chute, pull proper cords, etc. You don't just pilot an airplane, you take a class to learn how the aircraft works and spend a ton of time doing simulations. You don't just decide to build a house, you spend time learning from someone who can show you the way to do it and spend years getting good at it. Learn something by doing it....good way to get hurt. I've been in more than a few fights and I wouldn't like to go into one with no knowledge of how to handle myself. Good way to get dead nowadays.
Usually, when you have your first degree black belt, you're just in shape enough to actually be more of a danger to the other person than yourself. Belts are useful for a few things(knowing how to put a class together, for example), but just having one doesn't mean that you're a killing machine. Besides, we're ALL killing machines. A fighting system means you're a bit more organized(and most definitely in shape...throwing punches for two solid minutes is EXHAUSTING) than the other guy.
Re: Ninjitsu, just keep taking classes. Follow your instincts. Not every style or class is going to work for you. If you don't like it, you don't like it, and you will be better off finding something you DO like than trying to find reasons why you don't like it. It's far, far, FAR more likely that something is simply not to your taste, build, or philosophy than it simply doesn't work. I've been on both sides of that equation before, and feeding someone crow really feels just as bad as eating it yourself, in my experience.
Re: The specific punch, from what you described alone, it sounds like you're trying to keep your center mass away from the person with your weight shifted so that you can react to danger faster than just go balls out and crack someone in the face. I dunno. I'd have to see it. There also could be a tai-chi esque element of "do it slow to build form, do it fast to remove internal organs" to it.
And yes, HD, as much as I love you man, I don't think picking up a chair and swinging it into the base of someone's spine is a great way to learn how to fight, if you're the guy receiving the chair in the spine. As much as it grates against my chaotic nature, organized classes work better for more people for the more of the time.
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I've studied Count Dante's methods ever since I saw his ad in Micronauts #3 in 1979. Everything else is just bunk.
Usually, when you have your first degree black belt, you're just in shape enough to actually be more of a danger to the other person than yourself. Belts are useful for a few things(knowing how to put a class together, for example), but just having one doesn't mean that you're a killing machine. Besides, we're ALL killing machines. A fighting system means you're a bit more organized(and most definitely in shape...throwing punches for two solid minutes is EXHAUSTING) than the other guy.
Re: Ninjitsu, just keep taking classes. Follow your instincts. Not every style or class is going to work for you. If you don't like it, you don't like it, and you will be better off finding something you DO like than trying to find reasons why you don't like it. It's far, far, FAR more likely that something is simply not to your taste, build, or philosophy than it simply doesn't work. I've been on both sides of that equation before, and feeding someone crow really feels just as bad as eating it yourself, in my experience.
Re: The specific punch, from what you described alone, it sounds like you're trying to keep your center mass away from the person with your weight shifted so that you can react to danger faster than just go balls out and crack someone in the face. I dunno. I'd have to see it. There also could be a tai-chi esque element of "do it slow to build form, do it fast to remove internal organs" to it.
And yes, HD, as much as I love you man, I don't think picking up a chair and swinging it into the base of someone's spine is a great way to learn how to fight, if you're the guy receiving the chair in the spine. As much as it grates against my chaotic nature, organized classes work better for more people for the more of the time.
Don't worry, I'm going to stick with the ninjitsu classes for a little while. I'm excited to get the ninja's secrets. (;
For the rest of your post, about fighting and belts, I get that - I do. But I think it alone is a part of what rubs...
I'm glad to hear you're going to stick with it. In the end it may not be for you, but instead of a waste of money, view it as an investment in something that didn't work out for you.
And if you think someone who has been training regularly for 3-5 years can't fight..well..I hope you don't end up testing that out. I would more say that anyone can be sucker punched, and we all can have bad days. All training, even aggressive training, does is ensure that those days are reduced to a fraction of their former total. With the internet and the omnipresent martial arts style ego(myself included. What, you think I don't think my kung fu is better than yours? :-) ), a few really weird situations can make people feel that a particular style is weak, ineffective, or just plain stupid. This is almost NEVER the case in practice, however, as the situations where it would be in practice are ones that the average person, and even the average martial artist, will never, EVER see as a witness. To me, it's all just preparation for the day that you might actually have to defend yourself, and I pray to GOD that that day never, EVER comes. I'm happy living a peaceful life and getting along with the people around me. If trouble comes looking for me, I will do everything I can to avoid it. I keep change in my pocket for the desperate and poor, and I avoid bad areas, day or night. However, if someone really wants to do me serious physical injury or even death regardless of what I can do to alleviate the situation, I will defend myself to the best of my ability, using everything I have learned from every martial art and street fight I have ever been in. If I die, I die. But I will fight for my life and make my death as messy as possible.
If your dojo doesn't teach the death touch, forgetabout it.
If your dojo doesn't teach the death touch, forgetabout it.
Every dojo teaches one of two types of touches- the kind that kill(boring) or the kind that make the other person wish they were dead(far, far more interesting!).
One man's boredom is another man's efficient use of power.
One man's boredom is another man's efficient use of power.
Fair point.
Hmmmm a couple things that occur to me off the top of my head about this:
One of the things I think it is important to realize is that the force of a blow, beyond the bare minimum required to do what you are trying to do isn’t really all that important, and that hitting someone super hard in a fight can be more of a drawback than an advantage. When using some form of handstrike the two most important things involved are that you protect your hands from damage and that you hit the person somewhere vulnerable.
Using great force can damage your hands, especially if you hit a hard area like the jawline and you want avoid that as much as possible.
When hitting someone in a vulnerable spot(and I’m speaking more about soft tissues not crippling places like the throat or solar plexus) you don’t actually need that much force to cause great pain and harder hits will proportionally hurt your hands more too.
Another thing to consider is that the harder you hit someone the more invested in the blow you are which is nothing but a disadvantage especially when, hilariously enough, fighting someone who does that ninjitsu s#@~. Those guys have some of the best arm and hand locks I have ever seen, the last thing you want to do this get too far into their space with a punch lol.
As far as the speed goes the punch might be slower but it does both keep you from becoming overcommitted and, even more important, it doesn’t make you telegraph your attacks, which really is one of the strongest contributing factors to why someone who is skilled at fighting can manhandle the s@$~ out of someone who isn’t.
Is your teacher full of s+~+? I dunno. Is the punch worthless? Could be. But from what you’ve told us it could be worth hanging around and learning from the guy.
P.S.: As far as the sparring thing goes, yes, struggling with a real person is a very important part of actually getting good but it is also rather dangerous, even when basically just playing around, I wouldn’t be too hard on the guy for not doing it in his classes.
P.P.S: Also, as far as the stance goes you wouldn’t be using that stance consistently in a fight(unless you instructor is insane), only within the split second you throw the punch, and it is actually good for that, also, having an uneven stance when you attack has the added bonus of putting one thigh forward, which, as a man, does a lot to keep you from getting kicked in the balls.
I think thats a huge advantage of learning grappling: its not that the style is better, its that you can practice it 'for real' on another person in more realistic conditions without breaking your fingers or someone else's jaw
I think thats a huge advantage of learning grappling: its not that the style is better, its that you can practice it 'for real' on another person in more realistic conditions without breaking your fingers or someone else's jaw
Yes, I would agree with that and also say that is a good thing to learn for your average person focusing on self defense because of the emphasis it places on controlling your opponent and keeping him from controlling you, which fits well with what I consider should be your primary goal in 90% of fights, which isn’t defeating your opponent, that is the end game but also a secondary concern in most cases, but protecting yourself and potentially others from getting hurt.
I've been looking for a good school to learn Wing Chun in. I like the centerline defense/counter method intereting, it doesn't seem to require a whole lot of physical ability to work well, just time and effort to study. If anyone knows of a good place in the Omaha NE area, let me know, please.
It is true that western boxing gets a lot of criticism from many well trained martial artists, such as the classic joke:
Question: How do you know when you have won a fight?
Answer: When your opponent adopts a boxing stance.
But I don’t really think that it is all that bad, it just focuses on aspects of fighting that aren’t very productive against most skilled opponents.
The big problem with it is the emphasis on throwing punches and surviving punches, which is fine and helpful when fighting people who don’t know how to fight or other boxers but against others neither of those skills are particularly helpful.
The biggest problem involves something most people don’t realize: That in a fight one of your biggest vulnerable points is actually your hands. Every time you throw a punch you are providing your opponent the opportunity to put you in a wrist or arm lock (something that is pretty easy to do and can screw you royally) and potentially turn that into a finger lock (also pretty easy to do) and if that happens your only two choices are to break the lock, which almost always results in broken fingers, or scream for mercy before the other guy seizes control of you, twists you into a pretzel, and kills you.
I don’t know much about wing chung, so given your experience you are probably right about that, but in the case of those ninjutsu monkeys I feel that they are definitely entitled to their dismissive attitude, seeing as a great deal of their style seems focused on specifically turning those forceful(and honestly rather sloppy and repetitive) attacks boxers favor so much into broken bones and shorn tendons.
Yeah, that’s funny then in that our experiences are very very different. When it comes to punches arm, wrist and finger locks are always a very real possibility from what I’ve seen, and I’m not talking about theoreticals or training but from being in and observing many real fights.
It is interesting that so often martial artists have completely different views of what is a big threat in combat or not, especially because what they have been doing has been (at least in theory) working out for them.
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If you're FIRST class in ninjitsu is already rolling out punches, I'd question the school itself. If the school and technique is actually called NINJITSU, thats an even bigger clue. I took Taijutsu for 4 years as a teenager and the entirety of the first year was learning to fall, roll, stretch correctly, and blocking.
@cranewings
I guess the one thing I should point out(that you already know I am just vocalizing it) is that in a fight every last little advantage you squeeze out really is more opportunity based than anything else, so in the case of what I am talking about you aren’t going to try and catch every punch and when you do try you are not going to necessarily succeed but the threat the counter presents in terms of being able to shut down someone completely means most of the guys I know only punch when it is the “correct” choice rather than trying to rain down blow after blow with their hands on someone.
As to why I know a decent amount of people that can do this and you have never met anyone that can I’m not sure, maybe it is a symptom of what the people we know primarily focus on?
Yeah, I agree with you on the sparring part and as far as the boxer training goes, I don’t know, I have no formal training in martial arts so personal experience is all I have to draw on, which is obviously extremely subjective, so you are probably right.
And oh yeah, I love MMA guys, playing around with them is soooo much fun, I have learned a lot from them in the last year and a half, although I must say, I do have a soft spot in my heart for my less seriously minded ninja monkey, parkour obsessed friends.
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If you're FIRST class in ninjitsu is already rolling out punches, I'd question the school itself. If the school and technique is actually called NINJITSU, thats an even bigger clue. I took Taijutsu for 4 years as a teenager and the entirety of the first year was learning to fall, roll, stretch correctly, and blocking.If no one can punch, what do you practice blocking?
There isn't much point in practicing defense if there isn't a credible attack to test it on.
Yes, thank you tactical master, I'm aware of that. My point was that traditional Taijutsu is structured THAT way and not like a Karate dojo with 100 paying customers practising chambered punches. The senior students and instructors typically act as the aggressors during the initial training.
Hehe, yeah, although they might surprise you if you were to see them fight, most of them can hold their own against even the MMA guys. That’s one of the things that can happen with high energy but completely unemployable young adults, sometimes they spend all day every day scaling eight story buildings and waging elaborate ninja wars against each other in the woods=).
This generation is the bright future of America! =p
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Yes, thank you tactical master, I'm aware of that. My point was that traditional Taijutsu is structured THAT way and not like a Karate dojo with 100 paying customers practicing chambered punches. The senior students and instructors typically act as the aggressors during the initial training.If you're FIRST class in ninjitsu is already rolling out punches, I'd question the school itself. If the school and technique is actually called NINJITSU, thats an even bigger clue. I took Taijutsu for 4 years as a teenager and the entirety of the first year was learning to fall, roll, stretch correctly, and blocking.If no one can punch, what do you practice blocking?
There isn't much point in practicing defense if there isn't a credible attack to test it on.
For a whole year? I just don't get the point. People I know who are serious usually can get blocking and striking, with hardened wrists and fists, and be able to move around balanced within 3 months.
As far as questioning the school itself, I'd question it if there were students finishing their first year who couldn't hit back.
The point is not there for you to get, as I'm not debating one martial art vs another. I'm providing information, not the logic behind that particular arts traditions. I'm not the ninja advocate nor was I Yagyu Jubei in a past life, so I don't care what you think of Taijutsu.