Maybe I'm missing something, but if you just give out a GP-equivalent value, I'm not sure how that meets the situation you mentioned beforeBattle ends, and rather than me reading the loot block while a player puts it in a spreadsheet, looks up the values, and eventually sells it — the players pay for whatever look they specifically desire out of their share.
Oh, I see. Pathfinder Society play uses something similar.
Example: 1st level party kills some goblins. The treasure award is (260gp/4 players =) 65gp each. The players ask "what's the loot?" The goblins have three potions of CLW. Either a) the players are like "nah, sell pile" in which case they all get 65gp. or b) One of the players wants to get take a CLW potion for 50g and only gets 15g or c) one of the players either spends their 65g plus 85g from an earlier encounter to get all three potions, or else goes into debt with one of his colleagues.
Hang on -- in situation b), shouldn't the player's share be reduced by 25 gp for taking a CLW potion (the liquidation value), not 50 gp?
I'd be happy enough with that system, but it does tend towards having most interesting-but-marginal items get sold and converted into boring-but-useful items. Not that there's anything wrong with that...
Oh yeah, half resale. Good catch!
Anyway, I think I am gonna try that.
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I a good idea would be to write out the treasure breakouts in shares ahead of time for each encounter (assuming number of players beforehand). List the sale price of items and it no one wants it it gets dumped in with the share allotment.
So goblin treasure is listed as (260gp/4 players=65gp ea) + 1 potion of CLW (25gp/4 players=6.25gp). Someone can "buy" out the item from pot via their share or it can just be processed into cash if no one is interested.
My plan ist to give out less treasure (around the half of it) and give the boni to AC (deflection, natural armour enhancement), abilities (belts and headbands, choseable) and saves on a regular basis (each level, beginning with the third, they will get some enhancements. I made a chart with the gp value of the enhancements to handle WBL). To keep it as close to the rules as possible these boni will still be enhancement boni and come off in a anti-magic zone (no explanation until now, but I will come up with one). A big advantage for the players will be the "slotlessness" (is that a possible word?) of the boni.
Items will be harder to sell than usually (in fact they should be hard to sell in the most environs) and more often than not they will be worth keeping (potions, scrolls, money). My players are generally not of the nitpicking type, so it does not really matter if one has a little bit more than the other. There will not be too much math involved, only some summing up for the player who keeps records.
I hope it will work out. Hope dies last.
Surely there is a random treasure generator that also includes/creates unique items somewhere. That would solve the problem. That way it would be a surprise even to DMs.
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Regarding wealth resetting to a Wealth by Level value every time the PCs level:
That system works fine right up until the players realize that consumable items now effectively cost nothing if they are expended before the PCs next gain a level. Then they start burning through high-level potions and scrolls every encounter because there's no incentive to not do so; all of the money spent on consumables this level is automatically recovered when they gain the next level.
The 3.x solution to this was to make consumable items cost 5x as much if you were allowing them to re-buy their full WBL every level.
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I've decoupled magic items from gold. Instead, the amount an item would otherwise be worth is "mojo." Each PC is limited as to how much mojo he can handle before it becomes too much for him and he loses it/it backfires/it doesn't operate/someone takes it away from him.
Hah! That is some Kirth right there. The pure stuff.
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I like most of what you are using Kirth, I know a few players who would take their chances and gladly trade out functionality (the saves number game) and character balance for a very bad-ass sword, one that would normally be beyond their level in power and potentially be top-heavy.
I run something similar but having a few points given out at levels which equate around a +1 improvement per point seems a bit more manageable for me. But you gave me some ideas to streamline things in my system.
I can use your first bullet point and maybe cap maximum improvement based on item value/tied to tier?
Ex - Say I want 9th level PCs (Tier 1 in my system) to be running around with around +2.5 level power in their primary weapon, I can let them use a fluid cash* system for upgrades (based on wbl), but their sword isn't going to go over the +2.5 in power for their tier. Remaining cash equivalents should be used to improve other things (cloak, etc) or put perks/minor powers on other items.
Some corner case items would be exempt to following the +1 improvement and follow level tied (tier) guidelines - since the pricing in 3.5/PF is wonky.
*When I say cash I mean a magic item curreny improvement system not actual PC gold. So a point system, be it mine 1 point = +1 improvement or what you mentioned in thousands of mojo points = gold value (which is more flexible).
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Probably one of the best ideas I've heard for handling this was on a Fear the Boot podcast wherein the DM had a single day out of the in-game year in which there was a giant magical bazaar in the Underdark. This made buying and selling magic make sense in game, and also made it an adventure in itself.
I'm getting pretty tired of the loot-sell-buy cycle.
It's not the power of the gear that bothers me, it's the paperwork, and the fact that treasure has become boring. Kind of a chore. The treasure "reveal" has become simply me reading off the treasure results and the players slotting them in a spreadsheet.
Objectively, as long as there are people ready to buy and sell a product, there will be a market for it. The problem mainly exist under the assumption that an item can automatically be sold for 1/2 its market value. Without a ready market of, lets call it "high end" magic items, looting for 1/2 money value becomes impractical.
I understand that this is probably not the answer you were looking for, but it has worked for be for years. The character can develop a network of roguish fences, dandy collectors and secret societies that can fill this role to various degrees, but without the safe assumption the the item will sell, the whole system collapses.
'findel
I've decoupled magic items from gold. Instead, the amount an item would otherwise be worth is "mojo." Each PC is limited as to how much mojo he can handle before it becomes too much for him and he loses it/it backfires/it doesn't operate/someone takes it away from him.
hehe...
flip that "W" upside-down and you get MBL, or "mojo by level" guideline. I like the sound of it...
I know a few players who would take their chances and gladly trade out functionality (the saves number game) and character balance for a very bad-ass sword, one that would normally be beyond their level in power and potentially be top-heavy.
When I was testing the prototype of what would become this system, my friend Jamie did exactly that -- sank all his points into a monster sword he called "Hellbringer," which could destroy souls and cleave anvils. He had no other magic items. It always made for a fun game, because the other PCs were constantly having to shield him from harm. Max was the ultimate "glass cannon" -- with the right companion(s), he was totally awesome; by himself, he was nearly helpless.
The long and short of it is that some people will put more "worth" in offense, others in defense, and still others in utility. I actually don't mind that, because it promotes intra-party reliance, so I intentionally haven't put caps on anything other than the totals.
Objectively, as long as there are people ready to buy and sell a product, there will be a market for it. The problem mainly exist under the assumption that an item can automatically be sold for 1/2 its market value. Without a ready market of, lets call it "high end" magic items, looting for 1/2 money value becomes impractical.
I understand that this is probably not the answer you were looking for, but it has worked for be for years. The character can develop a network of roguish fences, dandy collectors and secret societies that can fill this role to various degrees, but without the safe assumption the the item will sell, the whole system collapses.
Findel, you're breaking my heart here. Did you read the whole thread? :)
It's not the magic level or the power level or the aesthetics or anything like that. I'd the game time lost to loot math that's the perceived problem.
The pseudo-org-play method I outlined is probably what I'll try first. The rest of my runelords campaign is gonna be all in one crazy 3-day session, so it makes sense to try it then.
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I definitely trust my players, and the gear doesn't bother me aesthetically... it's just that the process itself ruins my fun during the session. Looting, selling and buying all require time consuming math and it isn't very fun.as long as you trust your playes you should not have any problem with loot/sell/buy.
if it bothers you on a more personal level... as in it just makes te game world less real to you... simply give them fewer but more personalized loot drops.
Whenever I give out loot, I give the "sell" prices for everything, as long as it's been identified. This makes selling all the loot a simple process of adding up everything in a list, diving it by two, then dividing it by the number of PC's. Much better than having to look everything up, halting the game, just to sell a few unused swords.
Findel, you're breaking my heart here. Did you read the whole thread? :)It's not the magic level or the power level or the aesthetics or anything like that. I'd the game time lost to loot math that's the perceived problem.
Off course I did read the thread :)
(although I admit I missed page 2 before I sent my post...)
I believe my post relates directly to the perceived issue: time is lost by crunching the number of how much money a character can squeeze out of looted equipment.
I take that mainly form this quote
Looting, selling and buying all require time consuming math and it isn't very fun.
You even mention later that players get ultimately bored out of this. My solution isn't an aesthetic one, but perhaps a drastic one. It goes along the same line as...
Another approach (…) is to rely on the 75% availability roll to encourage keeping useful items.
... but with a 0% availability without the proper contacts.
The expectancy to be able to sell, buy and exchange equipment is solely based on the fact that the game makes an established and reliable economic system for all equipment, including magic items. If you cut the option, there isn't any lost time on it. As I said, perhaps too drastic...
I admit my post was incomplete insofar as I didn't propose anything to replace the player's option of selling and buying equipment to personalize their gear. Out of the solutions proposed, I like Kirth's best. I personally have been able to give players what they desired (and voice a request for) through quests and contacts, which is admittedly more of an aesthetic choice on my part (and thus the reason why I left it out). I see now that I shouldn't have. These contacts provide not only an in-game (and thus perhaps less boring) way of dealings with these things but also a plot-device to provide the right equipment at the right place without too much fuss.
'findel
I've decoupled magic items from gold. Instead, the amount an item would otherwise be worth is "mojo." Each PC is limited as to how much mojo he can handle before it becomes too much for him and he loses it/it backfires/it doesn't operate/someone takes it away from him.
Look at the WBL for your level; that's "par." If your gear is under par, you can "discover" new magic item properties until you reach par. There are no slots, nor is there a mark-up for putting multiple properties into a single item. If you have 5,000 mojo to spare before you reach par, here's no reason you can't gradually "realize" that your masterwork sword is really a +1 sword (2000 mojo) that gives you +1 deflection (2,000 mojo) and +1 resistance (1,000 mojo) while wielding it. Usually, PCs end up equipped more like King Arther than like a christmas tree -- one or two powerful items, rather than festooned with trinkets.
You can keep cool items that you find, or craft items, and thereby exceed par... but WBL for someone one level higher is your "max" mojo. If you exceed max, you lose the excess pretty quickly, through an Act of Dog that I work into the story-line somehow. Maybe a villain sunders your sword, or the amulet you found turns out to be a cursed relic, or whetever.
You don't have to reach par if you don't want. If you have less than NPC gear for your level, you're treated as a character 1 level lower, so a 5th level monk with no magic items is approved to adventure with a 4th level party and still get full XP.
Note that none of this is dependent on gp; the numbers are the same (for easy reference), but the units are different. So now you can spend gold on orgies, castles, ships, horses, hookers and blow, or whatever and not be gimping your character. It also means you can't usually sell magic items unless you find someone who really needs them, and even then the "price" is whatever you negotiate -- probably a barter in any event.
WOTC tried to sell that. You couldn't use "orbitals" till epic levels.
They had to change that before revealing 4th Ed.If your gaming group is ok with that, nevermind.
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I removed the numerical magic item bonuses from armor, shields, and weapons and removed cloaks of protection and attribute boosting items from the game. These bonuses were then made part of a character's normal level progression.
Calculate price for these magic items starting at the '+2 item scale for arms and armor. I would also recommend eliminating attribute boosting spells from the game since everyone receives inherent attribute enhancements that would normally not stack with these spells. I chose to leave out amulet and ring bonuses to Armor Class due to these items taking up a slot space that can fit other types of neck/ring magical items as well.
At 2nd and every 2 levels after: +1 Any Two Attributes
At 2nd and every 4 levels after: +1 All Saving Throws
At 3rd and every 4 levels after: +1 Attack and Damage Bonus to Weapons Wielded*
At 3rd and every 4 levels after: +1 Shield Bonus to Equipped Shield*
At 4th and every 4 levels after: +1 Armor Bonus to Armor Worn*
* Must have proficiency with item to gain this bonus
This should go a ways towards cutting back the magic item economy. The attribute bonuses may seem like a lot but the math works out slightly less than max attribute bonuses provided by magic items. I am still in the process of calculating the adjustment to character WBL. Though tracking WBL may no longer be relevant since balanced game play could be had adding little to no magic items with this house rule in play.
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This is a problem that I've had at my table. I'm running Kingmaker.
Players just aren't excited to see a treasure pile*, and I'm not excited to read a list. Heck, half the time my players damn near forget to loot corpses/look for treasure before moving on to the next scene.
The issue with abstracted treasure is it becomes another house-rule to learn, and the abstraction can be harmful when it's another resource to manage.
*(Exception: The wizard is always happy to see a new spell book, the warriors are always happy to have a new weapon of a type they like, my players are pretty new so they don't understand the value of the Big 6 yet, so when they come across yet another Cloak of Resistance often-times they just treat it as vendor trash).
So I've introduced enhancement crystals to the game. Whenever the PC finds a magic weapon, the spell is usually locked in with enhancement crystals (unless it's a legendary item of some kind). An Enhancement Crystal basically has the same value as a weapon enhancement.
+1 Crystal would be worth 2,000 gp
+1 Animal Bane Crystal would be worth 8,000 gp.
PCs can bind these crystals to their own weapons, essentially paying the cost of the difference between the Enhancement bonus and the new enhancement bonus.
Example: Valkeri finds a +1 Shock longsword, he decides that'd be a cool ability for his pistol Pocus. Pocus is already a +2 weapon, adding the shock ability wold make Pocus a +3 weapon. He can either pay 10,000 gp (the difference between +2 and +3) to a Smith, or if he has the item crafting feat he can pay 5,000 gp and do it himself. Pocus then becomes a +2 shock pistol worth 18,000 gp (9,000 gp resale). Basically it means a character focused on weapons of a certain type can still get giddy over finding magic weapons even if they aren't tailored for him or her.
I'm thinking of doing something similar with Cloaks of Resistance, Rings of Deflection, Bracers of Armour, and Armour itself.
Ivory pistol handles of +2. :)
If you can strip and clean the pistol, you can replace the handle.
Now add misc. enhancement items.
A broach of shielding is a clasp for a cloak and does not take up it's own slot.
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WOTC tried to sell that. You couldn't use...I've decoupled magic items from gold. Instead, the amount an item would otherwise be worth is "mojo." Each PC is limited as to how much mojo he can handle before it becomes too much for him and he loses it/it backfires/it doesn't operate/someone takes it away from him.
Look at the WBL for your level; that's "par." If your gear is under par, you can "discover" new magic item properties until you reach par. There are no slots, nor is there a mark-up for putting multiple properties into a single item. If you have 5,000 mojo to spare before you reach par, here's no reason you can't gradually "realize" that your masterwork sword is really a +1 sword (2000 mojo) that gives you +1 deflection (2,000 mojo) and +1 resistance (1,000 mojo) while wielding it. Usually, PCs end up equipped more like King Arther than like a christmas tree -- one or two powerful items, rather than festooned with trinkets.
You can keep cool items that you find, or craft items, and thereby exceed par... but WBL for someone one level higher is your "max" mojo. If you exceed max, you lose the excess pretty quickly, through an Act of Dog that I work into the story-line somehow. Maybe a villain sunders your sword, or the amulet you found turns out to be a cursed relic, or whetever.
You don't have to reach par if you don't want. If you have less than NPC gear for your level, you're treated as a character 1 level lower, so a 5th level monk with no magic items is approved to adventure with a 4th level party and still get full XP.
Note that none of this is dependent on gp; the numbers are the same (for easy reference), but the units are different. So now you can spend gold on orgies, castles, ships, horses, hookers and blow, or whatever and not be gimping your character. It also means you can't usually sell magic items unless you find someone who really needs them, and even then the "price" is whatever you negotiate -- probably a barter in any event.
To me, it sounds much more like the Champions/HERO system (e.g. you have to pay for any gadgets you want to keep in the long term, if you don't want gadgets you can use that resource for other things, everyone gets the same number of points, etc.)
In my world there are no magic 7-11's and the WBL is all but thrown away. Any magic item sale/purchase is done by shady back alley dealings usually brokered by the parties rog or bard. There are on a very rare occation actual magic shops, but these would be located somewhere special.
This I feel makes the treasure received via adventuring special. Having the ability to stop by the local town to exchange your loot for something different takes away from the fun of it.
If I were forced to use the magic shop and WBL rules I would be handing out only gp, becasue why bother doing anything else when the players are going to take the gift receipt back to the store.
My 2 cp for what it is worth.
WOTC tried to sell that. You couldn't use "orbitals" till epic levels.
I have no idea what you're talking about, or how it applies. There are no restictions on types of items in my system, and no slots, so therefore no higher cost for "slotless" items like IOUN stones. You can have one as soon as you have the mojo to afford it, if you want one.
Sounds ok then.
As long as you can use most of the stuff the enemy uses against you.
That's why I've been recommending taking all the stupid coins the monsters have and buying them a cool magic item.
Dungeon 1: in the first room, on the first monster corpse, you find 4 masterwork items that just happen to correlate to important itmes per character - a staff for the wizard, an axe for the dwarf fighter, etc.
Set up victory conditions guaranteed to reward the party upon completion through compensation from an NPC. Then never give them another treasure other than gear on any monster. Ever.
Every time they meet or exceed the victory condition, they get paid. Every so often their item "expresses" some latent ability - the dwarf's axe cleaves through 3 fire elementals at once, gains Flaming.
1. you don't have to generate treasure, 2. your party never has to search for it and slow down the game, and 3. you have total control over every aspect of their WBL.
Me, I like generating and detailing hoards, even after 30 years of GMing, and have no issues with mundane shopping trips. I like to take the dungeon mag approach and throw in unexpected events. A couple games ago the 4 4th level PC's went to the market and there was a fair in town. They played some games, got pick pocketed, and ended up in a drunken brawl while waiting for the guild master to come back with a better counter offer. None of it was a challenge which made them feel superior... right until the Castellan had them all arrested.