After much dileberation i have retweaked my build as follows. Any addtional advice would be nice. 20point buy, 2 traits, Worlds Largest Dungeon Campaign. Objective is to make the highest damage dealer possibly with the build.
Human
str-10
dex-16+2,+1 4th,+1 8th,+4belt = 24 or 30 with mutagen
con-14,+4 belt = 18 or 22 with mutagen
int-14,+4 headband = 18
wis-12 or 10 with mutagen
cha-7 or 5 with mutagen
feats:
H-weapon finesse
1st-two weapon fighting
3rd-sap adept
5th-craft wonderous
7th-sap master
9th-extra discovery
11th-improved twf
discoveries:
2nd-feral mutagen
4th-vestigial arm
6th-vestigial arm
8th-combine extract
9th-infuse mutagen
10th-crippling attack
12th-greater mutagen
traits:
indomitable will
one the gives acrobatics as class skill(cant rem name)
gear-110k wonderous at 1/2 price from craft wonderous
x2 +1 cold iron, agile, merciful light maces
agile amulet of mighty fists
+4 dex/con belt
+4 int headband
+5 cloak resist
boots of speed
celestial armor
x8 elixur of tumbling
potion of heroism CL(12th)
1000gp for additional mutagen
So this guy should have great attacks for alotta sneak attack damage, with decent hp and ac. The only weakness i see is a low will save, but he should invis for the majority of combats.
Thoughts?
This is disgusting.
Disgusting good or bad? I figured vs things not immune to none-lethal and or sneak attack he should dominate. So much that ill probably have to bring my extra dice bag of d6s. With letting the arms take my twfing attacks with daggers, feral mutagen will give him a bite/claw/claw. Optimally with just a few rounds he could have haste,heorism,reduce person,barkskin, and greater invisibilty going as well.. All his attacks are primary with dex as hit/dam and can be either leathal or none-lethal(preferably the later) and all 8 attacks could be per hit as much as 23ish+13d6 damage...
Ntm flying, pouncing, with scent or darkvision.. And at 13th level im looking to take piranha strike. His acrobatics should be close to +40, so tumbling for flanking shouldnt be an issue.
Bump, No comments on improving this build?
how do you plan on making people flat footed? somehow I must have missed that.
And if Cheapy calls your build disgusting, that means you have achieved your goal of breaking the game in more places than it has bones.
Edit:
If you're bored, think about using merciful double barrel pistols. Two attacks for one, and merciful allows sap master. (What's below disgusting Cheapy?)
Besides going first (+10intiative) theres no way i know of.. I relying more on the static +12dam from sap adept than anything. Going first would just be an alpha strike basically. Nxt level is piranha strike for even more static... I wonder if i should forgo extra discovery(combined extracts) and get piranha strike at 9th...
Since when do Alchemists qualify for Craft Wondrous Items?
Did I miss a ruling? Or is that a house rule?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/rules/howDoesTheAlchemistWhoRAWHasNoCasterLevelOtherThanForExtractsUseDi scoveriesThatAreBasedOnCasterLevel&page=1#4
Search this, because i cant remember how to make it a link lol.. :(
|
So, lets see. You'll be at -7 to hit with your natural attacks (half Dex damage) so you usually will be swinging at air with those.
Your maces (though technically legal) violate the intention of the vestigial arms rule and are totally against anything that is immune to non-lethal damage (undead, Constructs, inevitables, swarms, etc).
I see a build that is 90% defeated with one feat (Blind-fight) or and totally shut down with a LOW level spell (obscuring mist) or cheap item (smoke stick) or just turning off the lights.
Not to mention since you have nothing to get your claws/bite to pierce DR (and at 11th+ level you'll deal with that a LOT) all of that possible damage goes away anyway.
Overall I have to say this is not going to be a fun build to play after about 4th level. You'll be shut down so much you'll spend every game regretting building it.
Edit: You do know it costs 1000GP every time you want to use that extra mutagen right?
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/rules/howDoesTheAlchemistWhoRAWHasNoCasterLevelOtherThanForExtractsUseDi scoveriesThatAreBasedOnCasterLevel&page=1#4
Search this, because i cant remember how to make it a link lol.. :(
Found the James Jacobs ruling on it. No errata and counter to how it's written, but he's absolutely clear as to intent, so... Wow. Ok that's pretty crazy.
And -7 on natural attacks is far less relevant when greater invis or otherwise alchemist buffed...
Looks like a sickening powerful offensive build :/
|
|
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/rules/howDoesTheAlchemistWhoRAWHasNoCasterLevelOtherThanForExtractsUseDi scoveriesThatAreBasedOnCasterLevel&page=1#4
Search this, because i cant remember how to make it a link lol.. :(
Found the James Jacobs ruling on it. No errata and counter to how it's written, but he's absolutely clear as to intent, so... Wow. Ok that's pretty crazy.
And -7 on natural attacks is far less relevant when greater invis or otherwise alchemist buffed...
Looks like a sickening powerful offensive build :/
And the greater invis is defeated by the Blindfight feat or an obscuring mist or turning the lights out. (Turning off the lights is a massive nerf to this build since it would cost him his entire dex bonus and then some)
Remember if you have the blind fight feat you keep your dex vs invisible opponents so no sneak attack. If you have ANY concealment you can't be sneak attacked (Dim light, smoke stick or obscuring mist)
I also forgot he would max out at a +8 dex bonus so that makes it even LESS likely to hit with all those attacks. (Celestial armor limits you to +8 max so yeah you wasted a few points)
This whole build is based around being able to get a Sneak Attack off, and since that is actually a hard thing to do and this character only has one way to do that it's a ineffective build.
Add to it mixing natural and iterative attacks on a 3/4 BaB class usually means you are going to miss so much the opponents will start ignoring you and this build will be sitting at a +11 to hit at 11th level. It will miss, ALOT.
Try again.
As far as i read it feral mutagen gives u bite/claw/claw as primary.. Your daggers attacks are main, so also primary. I believe all attacks would just be at the -2 from twfing..
How many monsters have blind fight in the Bestiaries? It's a threat, but so is Deflect Arrows to archers, and that never gets held against them.
As well, concealment hurts everyone, and this character can deal with it as well as any other character can.
Max dex on armor also doesn't interact with attack rolls on any level, so that's a non issue as well.
Also on hit bonuses... Don't alchemists have easy access to heroism/greater heroism etc? I'd be very surprised if +11 were at all the limit of what he can pull off. I mean, he even paid for the potion of heroism...
I think you're way under selling this Mathwei.
Edit: werepox, it is 100% accurate that natural weapons are treated as secondary when combined with weapon attacks.
|
|
How many monsters have blind fight in the Bestiaries? It's a threat, but so is Deflect Arrows to archers, and that never gets held against them.
As well, concealment hurts everyone, and this character can deal with it as well as any other character can.
Max dex on armor also doesn't interact with attack rolls on any level, so that's a non issue as well.
Also on hit bonuses... Don't alchemists have easy access to heroism/greater heroism etc? I'd be very surprised if +11 were at all the limit of what he can pull off. I mean, he even paid for the potion of heroism...
I think you're way under selling this Mathwei.
Edit: werepox, it is 100% accurate that natural weapons are treated as secondary when combined with weapon attacks.
Not quite, when you mix iterative and natural attacks the natural attacks become secondary natural attacks. This means they get a -5 to hit and only half strength to damage. Since you are using your dex AS your strength they would get half dex bonus to damage.
Next you are TWF which imposes a -2 on all normal attacks or attacks with the primary hand so that's ANOTHER -2 on top of that for -7.And you are correct on the Dex bonus, I was thinking of something else.
I'm not saying that this build doesn't have the potential to do some obnoxious damage in the perfect scenario.
My point is simply that the perfect scenario (Target is denied it's dex, he can full attack, target is vulnerable to non-lethal, no one has concealment & you can actually use Sneak Attack) is not very common in real play. Sneak attack IS powerful but so easily defeated most rogue-types are lucky to get it off 1 or 2 times a fight unless the GM intentionally plays stupid and allows it.
The number of creatures out there with Blindfight, Immunity to non-lethal, multiple ways to avoid SA's or simply smart enough to know when to move is surprisingly high.
edit: Concealment inconveniences everyone else, it totally kills this build. Same with deflect arrows, it stops a single arrow per round. Inconvenient but not game ending, ANY concealment removes 90% of this builds damage output.
Now if you are going to need to use all the alchemist buffs just to equal the regular output/hit chance of a regular character then you have a fundamental flaw in your build.
First off LoL... Armor max dex has nothing to do with the maximum dex to hit.. So let me break it down for u sir..
12th level bab +9/+4
+1 agile, merciful lt maces(use dex instead of str)
agile amulet(use dex over str for nat attks)
base dex 24-mutagen 30 120min duration 2/day
heroism pot with alchemical allocation/amp elixur 240min duration +2moral hit, save, skills
haste from boots +1hit + extra attack
charging pounce +2 and full attack
reduce person +2dex, +1hit
if invis works +2
if flanking +2
so with buffs that last along time in place besides reduce person and haste from boots(1 rd of buffing), he can while flying charge pounce for flanking or if invisible or if he goes first(+11initiative) attack for:
Daggers: Main Hand +26/+26/+21 1d3+12(+7d6+12 if flankin/invis)or(+13d6+12 vs flat footed)+2str
Off Hand +26/+21 1d3+6(+7d6+12 if flanking/invis)or (+13d6 vs flat footed)+2str
and Bite: +25 1d6+11(+7d6+12)or(+13d6+12)+2str
and Claw x2:+25 1d4+11(+7d6+12)or(+13d6+12)+2str
Thats all self buffed, it could get higher under certain circumstances.
Now if for some reason he doesnt go first in the round, cant get flanking, or invisibility doesnt work... Then its just the base damage.
His chances to hit vs an average CR 12(ac 27) is pretty dam good and vs their flatfooted or dex denied ac is basically a 1 misses..
Ok so the natural attack would be at only +20s, the objective is to get sneak attack damage going anyways as well as the 2str drain per hit... With the ability to fly and pounce via beastmorph and having a high initiative bonus quite often he will go first alowing a charge with all 8 attacks getting sneak bonuses.. after that a huge acrobatics mod will allow him to travel the map getting pouncing flanking attacks every round.. If he invis its game over period. And ok ill submit that the "every once in a while" creature with blindfight/sense/sight will foil him, as well as concealment or imm. to sneak/nonelethal damage.
Were runnin the worlds largest dungeon, so there is no monster we see more than others.. SO far i can remember undead as the only thing this guy wouldnt tear apart..
|
|
First off LoL... Armor max dex has nothing to do with the maximum dex to hit.. So let me break it down for u sir..
12th level bab +9/+4
+1 agile, merciful lt maces(use dex instead of str)
agile amulet(use dex over str for nat attks)
base dex 24-mutagen 30 120min duration 2/day
heroism pot with alchemical allocation/amp elixur 240min duration +2moral hit, save, skills
haste from boots +1hit + extra attack
charging pounce +2 and full attack
reduce person +2dex, +1hit
if invis works +2
if flanking +2so with buffs that last along time in place besides reduce person and haste from boots(1 rd of buffing), he can while flying charge pounce for flanking or if invisible or if he goes first(+11initiative) attack for:
Daggers: Main Hand +26/+26/+21 1d3+12(+7d6+12 if flankin/invis)or(+13d6+12 vs flat footed)+2str
Off Hand +26/+21 1d3+6(+7d6+12 if flanking/invis)or (+13d6 vs flat footed)+2strand Bite: +25 1d6+11(+7d6+12)or(+13d6+12)+2str
and Claw x2:+25 1d4+11(+7d6+12)or(+13d6+12)+2strThats all self buffed, it could get higher under certain circumstances.
Now if for some reason he doesnt go first in the round, cant get flanking, or invisibility doesnt work... Then its just the base damage.
His chances to hit vs an average CR 12(ac 27) is pretty dam good and vs their flatfooted or dex denied ac is basically a 1 misses..
Well lets fix your math first since your numbers are way off.
12th level bab +9/+4_____________________Weapons_______nat attacks
+1 agile, merciful lt maces______________+10/+5___________+9
agile amulet_____________________________+10/+5___________+9
base dex 24-mutagen 30___________________+20/+15___________+19
heroism pot +2moral hit, save, skills____+22/+17___________+21
haste from boots +1hit + extra attack____+23/+18___________+22
charging pounce +2
(only the first attack gets the +2 hit)
reduce person +2dex, +1hit_______________+24/+19___________+23
(-1 avg damage each attack since your weapons went down a size)
if invis works +2
if flanking +2
Two Weapon fighting -2 to normal atks____+22/+22/+17/+17___+21
Secondary Attack Penalty -5 to nat atks +22/+22/+17/+17___+16
Now yes you will get a lot of attacks but you're to hit is really low. The average AC for a creature at CR 12 is 27 per here.
So you have a 70% chance of hitting with your first 2 mace attacks (roll 5 or better nat ones change the %)but then it drops down to a 45% chance with the next two(10's or better nat 1's again) and all three of your natural attacks are at 40% (11 or better watch the nat 1's again) and can't pierce DR.
(Maces??) Daggers: Main Hand +26/+26/+21 1d4+12(+7d6+12 if flankin/invis) {incorrect, only if opponent is flatfooted there is a difference)
Off Hand +26/+21 1d3+6(+7d6+12 if flanking/invis){incorrect, only if opponent is flatfooted there is a difference)
and Bite: +16 1d4+5(+7d6+12)or(+13d6+12)
and Claw x2:+25 1d4+11(+7d6+12)or(+13d6+12)+2str
Wrong, Sap adept/SAP MASTER only works with bludgeoning weapons, claws are not bludgeoning since Agile specifically replaces it with your dex bonus.
(Should be) Claw x2:+16 1d4+5(+7d6)
Look at it that way and your average chance to hit is extremely low for this level and since you dropped down in size unless you can sneak attack you will average at MAYBE 3 hits a round for 1D4+5 max of 27 damage each round. Not that impressive against creatures with a 160+ HP's.
It CAN be a high damage build but you need to invest more in making sure you get your SA's off, as it sits though your damage is going to be extremely low over the course of the characters life.
To be fair, he should also be exploiting a +5 greater magic fang potion with alchemical allocation for another +5 attack and damage on his naturals. I don't see that listed in there.
I would recommend multiclassing with rogue (and its varius archetypes), to get for example underhanded, it should apply to your sneak attack from alchemist aswell.
Seems mighty powerful for that first sap mastering.
If damage is your goal, you'd do much better as a str-based alchemist, with monstrous physique into a Calikang for 4 arms (on top of the vestigial ones).
Dex-based you get decent damage and better AC, str-based will be more damage.
I agree with Stream, as a str based alchemist you can still do pretty good damage even without sneak attack. Also instead of infuse mutagen, why not take 2-4 lvs in master chymist? You can still take greater mutagen at lv 12. But you would lose at least 1 "caster" lv and 1d6 on your sneak attack. Also, you can easily buff your ac up quite a bit without sacrificing any power.
At lv 12 you could possibly have an ac of 37+.
10 base + 4-5 (18-20 dex with greater mutagen) + 9 (celestial armor) + 2 (+2 ring of protection) +4 (shield extract) + 4 (barkskin extract) + 4 (greater mutagen natural armor) = ac 37-38
Sure you might not be able to keep it up all the time, but when it is up you will be dam hard to hit.
Well, if you want to use your sneak attack more often, wear a goz mask (what was the other one, smoke goggles?) to ignore concealment provided by fog, smoke etc, and carry an eversmoking bottle (or use various other means of creating fog- or smoke-based concealment)...
This is disgusting.
You really don't like summoners or alchemists do you?
WLD? Yeah, no matter how hard you swing the rats and centipedes will feast on your eyes.
Yea WLD is tough, but the party is very optimized and includes 3 other melee atm, so flanking shouldnt be an issue. Claw attacks are listed in the bestiary as B,S, so they qualify for merciful and yes i forgot about the GMF +5 potion that would be up for any major fight.. What ive seen in WLD so far is alotta little fights that dont really require to many buffs and just a few per area that i would consider "tough and u need to buff or die fights", so he should be ok with resources. Matt im not tryin to have a war with u but i see my attacks as
+9bab-----+9
+11dex----+20
+2hero----+22
+1haste---+23
+1size----+24
+1weapon--+25
+2flank---+27
+2charge--+29(only 1st attck)
-2twf
Total: MH +27/+25/+20
OH +25/+20
our damage totals were the same
nat attacks
+9bab------+9
+11dex-----+20
+2hero-----+22
+5gmf------+27
+1size-----+28
+1haste----+29
+2flank----+31
-7twf/secondary attacks
Total: For all +24
damage would be bite 1d6+10+7d6+12(+13d6+12 vs FF opp.)+2str
claws the same except 1d4s
His ac will be high enough (31 with just mutagen)to not get hit much. And could max out at 42 with all his buffs
9armor
8dex
1size
1haste
5barkskin
4mutagen
4shield
My only worry(and its a big one), is his will save.. With heorism its only at +12 :(
Those attacks put him vs AC 27
MH: 95%/95%/65%
OH: 95%/65%
Bite/Claw/Claw: 90%
Now vs Bosses the AC to meet will surely be higher so ill prob be set to picking off underlings or providing support.. He's deffinitely being built as a secondary melee damage and support character..
Cyberwolf: Ill deff look into crafting me a set of them concealment reduction goggles.. Thanks!
Any idea wear this Goz Mask or Smoke Goggles are located?
