I think about this from time to time.
to answer 1 I have never found this to be overwhelmingly powerful... divine spells tend to be much more conservative than arcane in terms of power and utility.
to answer 2 the best way to handle it is to limit spells on a spell by spell basis either for specific power level or for flavor reasons. maybe some gods dont grant certain spells... or maybe they only grant them under certain circumstances or even only to those strictly within their alignment as a reward to those most closely aligned to their god.
this is a case by case GM call. just let your players know they have to run spells, feats and other such options by the GM before they are allowed in game.
In my games for example I allow anything from the core book, anything but summoners from the advanced book and everything else requires GM approval. to balance it I am actually pretty liberal with my approval and have been known to allow the player to bend a rule for fun and flavor.
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Not true. The cleric, in PF secifically only automatically gets the spells in the CORE book. They must learn all other spells via the DM's approval, with the exception of spells unique to their deity.
Really? Could you point out where that's written? If I've overlooked that, I should certainly be checking it out.
Wizards don't automatically know all the core spells, either. Is it unfair that clerics do?
Wizards have a "spells known" factor. I've never really been in a position where that was all that limiting, considering the readily available nature of scrolls for purchase.
That's not true. I've looked through the Core rules and the APG and there is nothing in the rules preventing a cleric or druid from knowing the new spells in the book. Clerics and druids by definitely know all of the spells on their list. The only thing stopping this is a GM, not the rules.
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I've been looking for the thread. The devs said that the line under the Cleric (something like) "Clerics know and can prepair all Cleric spells on the "Cleric Spell List" in Chapter 10" is meant to mean only those spells in the Core Rulebook, while all other spells should be either rewards for quests and aspects of faithfulness or through individual research and development. For simplicity, this is not true in PFS, where the spells legal for play are open to all.
Oracles are under the same restriction as are Sorcerers. Wizards have the advantage as they can choose any spells for their +2 Spells known with level up, but otherwise must find a scroll or spellbook containing the Spell in question.
Tht being said, especially for Clerics, the majority of the new spells are inferior to Core spells anyway, so I'm not sure what the issue is, with exceptions like Burning Disarm and Blessings of Fervor, until much, much later spell levels. Even then, Cleric are sort of last on the list of expanding power through new books. Hav you seen the new Druid, and even Paladin and Ranger spells, not to mention all the newr classes?
I've been looking for the thread. The devs said that the line under the Cleric (something like) "Clerics know and can prepair all Cleric spells on the "Cleric Spell List" in Chapter 10" is meant to mean only those spells in the Core Rulebook, while all other spells should be either rewards for quests and aspects of faithfulness or through individual research and development. For simplicity, this is not true in PFS, where the spells legal for play are open to all.
Oracles are under the same restriction as are Sorcerers. Wizards have the advantage as they can choose any spells for their +2 Spells known with level up, but otherwise must find a scroll or spellbook containing the Spell in question.
Tht being said, especially for Clerics, the majority of the new spells are inferior to Core spells anyway, so I'm not sure what the issue is, with exceptions like Burning Disarm and Blessings of Fervor, until much, much later spell levels. Even then, Cleric are sort of last on the list of expanding power through new books. Hav you seen the new Druid, and even Paladin and Ranger spells, not to mention all the newr classes?
That sounds a lot like an opinion and as an opinion it is valid. However, please do not pass it off as RAW or "truth." Further, Dev's opinion isn't automatically RAW or "truth" either, though it should carry considerable weight. thank you.
To add my own opinion I don't think it's a big deal or even problematic.
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Some of the new spells are pretty good. Communal combat spells with minute/level durations are cost-effective.
Ghostbane Dirge is pretty hefty; suddenly the whole party, even the ones without magic weapons, can attack Shadows. One of our recurring enemies uses Shadow Projection a lot, and we have few magic weapons, so this spell is quite a breakthrough for us.
Compel Hostility also has its uses, protecting wizards, rogues and under-dressed barbarians. It's probably less of a game-changer than Ghostbane though.
Air Bubble opens up underwater spellcasting at level 1.
Deadeye's Lore makes you an instantly competent tracker, and also speeds up (solitary) overland travel. Not bad for a first-level spell.
Nap Stack isn't free, but it's a really fast way to reset your party after a fight with a lot of ability damage.
Know The Enemy takes too long for combat, but is great if you suspect that you'll encounter the same monster more than once in an adventure. Especially powerful in a horror adventure where you start out ignorant and figure out what you're fighting after several fruitless battles - this time you take an intellectual shortcut.
Murderous Command - this is brutal when fighting undisciplined enemies; might turn them against each other for much more than one action. And it's only a level 1 spell!
Sanctify Corpse - if you need it, you REALLY need it. And no finicky rolls; it just works.
Lesser Animate Dead - finally, low-level necromancers ahoy.
Compassionate Ally - hilarious because those most likely to fail saving throws are generally bad at healing their comrades, keeping them out of combat longer. It's also a nicely non-violent way to stop fights in a civic area.
Dread Bolt - the counterpart to Searing Light I suppose. Also useful when testing if new Minion applicants aren't infiltrators for Good :P
Imbue with Aura - clerical magic to smuggle morally questionable associates past the paladin. Naughty.
Vision of Hell - this spell is weird. LE creatures (who are going to Hell after they die) aren't scared, everyone else is. Too bad, because it would be brutal illustration during sermons. "Repent! Or you'll go over here!"
Anyway, those were just low-level examples to show that new priest spells add a lot of new options, some with significant power.
The thing that just keeps bugging me: clerics pay no opportunity cost for these extra options, while oracles, wizards and sorcerers have to spend resources to use their expanded spell lists. It just doesn't seem fair; I don't think clerics were a poor class in CRB.
Some of the new spells are pretty good. Communal combat spells with minute/level durations are cost-effective.
** spoiler omitted **...
I think what it is is that generally speaking, Wizards have a wider range of utility with their spells, while many cleric spells are focused on buff and debuffs. Add in the fact that a wizard cannot lose his spells because of alignment and that is supposed to make the main difference.
I've been looking for the thread. The devs said that the line under the Cleric (something like) "Clerics know and can prepair all Cleric spells on the "Cleric Spell List" in Chapter 10" is meant to mean only those spells in the Core Rulebook, while all other spells should be either rewards for quests and aspects of faithfulness or through individual research and development. For simplicity, this is not true in PFS, where the spells legal for play are open to all.
Where is this exception listed for PFS?
It'd be really weird since the rules are that clerics get all spells at each new level, no matter the source.
Keeping in mind that the inquisitor and oracle didn't exist at the time of the CRB's publication...
New Divine Spells
Divine spellcasters gain new spells as follows.
Spells Gained at a New Level: Characters who can cast divine spells undertake a certain amount of study between adventures. Each time such a character receives a new level of divine spells, she learns all of the spells from that level automatically.
Or if the rules themselves aren't convincing enough, we have a few posts by SKR that state it.
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Back to the topic at hand, I have no problem with them being able to learn new miracles granted to them by their deity at every level / book printing. They just ask their God to grant them the power to do X, and if the God is in agreement, they say "Sure, buddy! Thanks for helping my people." It hasn't been a problem in any of the games I play.
Personally I allow only the spells from the CRB and all the others by permision, being more liberal with thematically appropriate spells.
I do not particulary like the mechanic, it creates a situation where players go paging through all the books to come up with a magic trick solution to a problem.
I am quite ok treating clerics exactly the same as wizards, using incense and offerings to broaden their divine gifts, except that they do not need any othersource to learn their spells and do not need to record them in a spellbook, basically once learned they know it and can 'write' it in their 'spiritual/mental spellbook'. That ofcourse is a houserule, but one that suits me better.
Clerics might get divine rewards in the form of new spells when they further the interest of the faith in some way, for example a good cleric destroying an unholy weapon. The latter example you would take half the marketprice of the item and apply that value 'buying/scribing' spells from the cleric list. Divine incentives if you will.
The cleric (...) automatically gets the spells in the CORE book. They must learn all other spells via the DM's approvalReally? Could you point out where that's written? If I've overlooked that, I should certainly be checking it out.
Regardless whether this is RaW or not, this could be a clean and easy solution for the OP. Alternatively, the cleric could be granted a whole "source" rather than every spell individually.
'findel
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The thing that just keeps bugging me: clerics pay no opportunity cost for these extra options, while oracles, wizards and sorcerers have to spend resources to use their expanded spell lists. It just doesn't seem fair; I don't think clerics were a poor class in CRB.I just don't understand this objection. All classes have exactly the same access to new spells that they did to their original spell lists.
A wizard doesn't pay any more of an opportunity cost for getting a spell from the APG than he does for choosing Sleep instead of Charm Person from the CRB. He has a bigger spell list to choose from when his picks his spells. That's an advantage whether you pick them every day or only when you go up a level or buy scrolls.
A wizard (or sorcerer, or oracle) pays opportunity costs: instead of learning spell X, he learns spell Y. If his spell list gets bigger with a new book, he gets more to choose from, but he doesn't get to choose more spells.
The cleric doesn't pay opportunity costs; when his spell list gets bigger, he gets all those spells without paying anything extra.
Compare: a level 1 sorcerer with CRB knows 2 spells, a cleric knows 25.
Now add APG, UC and UM. The sorcerer knows 2 spells, the cleric knows 45 spells.
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Except that, despite all those options, he can only ever have very few of those spelled prepared at a time, and most 1st level Cleric Spells aren't as good as the 1st level Arcane Spells that a Sorcerer gets access to. Sure, the cleric can choose between healing, buffing, or doing a small amount of damage, or other utility things, but my 1st level Sorcerer can do either Color Spray or Sleep (depending on my choice), and can use them several more times per day.
Seems like a fair trade to me.
Indeed. Color Spray, Pyrotechnics, Glitterdust... all great spells on the arcane side.
Of course, I love that divine gets Blindness/Deafness }:D
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Where is this exception listed for PFS?
It'd be really weird since the rules are that clerics get all spells at each new level, no matter the source
In PF, you are concidered to meet all flavor prereqs, so it does not apply IF it is a legal sorce for play.
I did hit the FAQ to see if a dev will come in and re-enlighten us. This was a big deal when the Core book came out for PF, because it was one of thespecific changes that they made. Please do not confuse that with my opinion on how it should work or how I do it. It is not. If I could find the post, I would post it, and it was not an opinion post by creative directors, but as far as I remember a clarification on by the staff as a whole.