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The core problem here, and I've discussed this with several other people, isn't the powergamers. The problem is that DnD/Pathfinder et all premiere combat as the main form of conflict.
Oh, wow, that is sooooooo bizarre. A game that sprang from tabletop wargaming features combat as the main method of conflict resolution? A game based on Conan and Elric and the like features swordplay and combat magic?
The horror.
It would be like me being frustrated because community theater doesn't allow me to resolve conflict by stabbing the director in the face.
There is no "problem". Just people trying to use a feather duster to drive nails. Wrong tool for the goal.
but theres a problem with that, if you choose not to allow all the books, the players feel let down, the newer books have more classes, more feats, more ability to crunch and master the system, saying "no" will get you labled as a "too controling" DM etc. but really what other alternative is there?
I also wonder, we have a magic item creation system, a race creation system, why dont we also have a feat, class, prestige and achtype creation system? why cant we boil the whole thing down to class points, etc, and turn PF into a point based system?
Some players feel let down, not all of them. I don't mind a GM saying no to certain books. I even suggest that new GM's stay with the core book only until the get better. You don't normally get the "controlling" label unless you say no, without a good reason. Telling a player "because I said so" is one way to get the label. I didn't allow Magic of Incarnum for 3.5, because I did not want to learn another subsystem, but I also explained it. I never just said "no", without a good reason.
The core problem here, and I've discussed this with several other people, isn't the powergamers. The problem is that DnD/Pathfinder et all premiere combat as the main form of conflict.Oh, wow, that is sooooooo bizarre. A game that sprang from tabletop wargaming features combat as the main method of conflict resolution? A game based on Conan and Elric and the like features swordplay and combat magic?
The horror.
It would be like me being frustrated because community theater doesn't allow me to resolve conflict by stabbing the director in the face.
There is no "problem". Just people trying to use a feather duster to drive nails. Wrong tool for the goal.
Take that attitude elsewhere please.
could just stop playing campagins once characters reach 5th level ;)
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Take that attitude elsewhere please.The core problem here, and I've discussed this with several other people, isn't the powergamers. The problem is that DnD/Pathfinder et all premiere combat as the main form of conflict.Oh, wow, that is sooooooo bizarre. A game that sprang from tabletop wargaming features combat as the main method of conflict resolution? A game based on Conan and Elric and the like features swordplay and combat magic?
The horror.
It would be like me being frustrated because community theater doesn't allow me to resolve conflict by stabbing the director in the face.
There is no "problem". Just people trying to use a feather duster to drive nails. Wrong tool for the goal.
Pfft.
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Take that attitude elsewhere please.The core problem here, and I've discussed this with several other people, isn't the powergamers. The problem is that DnD/Pathfinder et all premiere combat as the main form of conflict.Oh, wow, that is sooooooo bizarre. A game that sprang from tabletop wargaming features combat as the main method of conflict resolution? A game based on Conan and Elric and the like features swordplay and combat magic?
The horror.
It would be like me being frustrated because community theater doesn't allow me to resolve conflict by stabbing the director in the face.
There is no "problem". Just people trying to use a feather duster to drive nails. Wrong tool for the goal.
He is actually correct, even if you did not like the way he said it.
Baal PF is a combat game that allows you to RP. It is not an RP first system that has combat. That is why most spells, and feats, and so on have combat applications. Most players know that XP is given out equally so when you say Player 1 gets less XP than Player 2 it won't take long to catch on.
In short if you have reasonably smart players they will catch on, and that will lead to other issues. PF also has rules for finding magic items, and they might ask about that. Denying magic items to everyone hurts the RP guys even more. If you only deny the guys that focus on combat they will catch on to that also.
The only thing I can suggest is to tell you to find people that play like you want to play. If the player knows how to make good combat focused builds that means he knows the rules, and that is why your above ideas won't fool him.
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IF you take the suggestion that there is no magic items for sale and magic items are extremely vaueable, AND you really only hand out magic items that dont match the OP player's build type (IE you give a staff for the monk, a dagger for the rogue, and no magic falchion for the OP super critting barb)It wont matter if he suspects your doing something or not.
Also theres nothing wrong with saying "oh by the way I do hand out a lot of extra Xp to players for various reasons that dont have anything to do with combat" and ta-da it does not matter how well the powergamer knows the rules.
Your players will likely walk away if you start doing that, or a conflict will brew up and blow up in your face sooner or later. Balancing things by treating player A better and player B worse just because player A plays the game the way you like it and player B is an evil powergamer rollplayer is the worst thing you can do. People are, on average, intelligent creatures and can smell that somebody is shafting them from a mile away.
And you know what? That's how player advocacy people come to exist. This is where all those "we need rules to protect us from GMs" folks come from. That's how the whole "rule 0 is a tool of oppression used by power hungry egomaniacs" drift is born. They come from GMs who went too far in their desire to control the game and shape it to their liking, down to dictating what play style gets bonus points and which one is docked at their table.
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wait so your telling me its wrong to give the player struggling with combat a b$!$+en magic item and not give an equally powerfull weapon to the guy who is absolutely dominating?
are you serious?
and for doing this I am a power hungry egomaniac?
and wtf is player advocacy? some group that sends your DM angry letters if somebody else gets a +5 sword and you only got a +2 sword?
and yes, I will reward the players who play the game the way I like it IE non-powergaming and I will find a way to penalize powergamers, and I will "shape the game" so powergaming is curtailed not encouraged...
absolutely guilty as charged.
Are you going to tell your players upfront that you will reward playstyle A and punish playstyle B?
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Here the thing Baal that many DMs forgot. Yes they control what happens at the table yet without players you have no game. Sooner or later they are going to notice that not only are you forving them to play a certain way that you also plan to screw them over if they don't. End result a DM with no players and with social media blacklisted as a DM and possibly a player. One thing I learned the hard way. DMs have as much power as the players are willing to give them. You either learn that lesson or learn to play and run games of solitare D&D.
Why do posters start open ended threads when their mids are made up already. It's a disturbing trend here and elsewhere. If your mind is already made up and and when you don't get validation of your postion get angry why even post. Admitting to being a "power hungry egomaniac" and being proud of it is NOT something to admit or be proud off. Makes me feel very sorry for your players if anything.
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Are you going to tell your players upfront that you will reward playstyle A and punish playstyle B?wait so your telling me its wrong to give the player struggling with combat a b$!$+en magic item and not give an equally powerfull weapon to the guy who is absolutely dominating?
are you serious?
and for doing this I am a power hungry egomaniac?
and wtf is player advocacy? some group that sends your DM angry letters if somebody else gets a +5 sword and you only got a +2 sword?
and yes, I will reward the players who play the game the way I like it IE non-powergaming and I will find a way to penalize powergamers, and I will "shape the game" so powergaming is curtailed not encouraged...
absolutely guilty as charged.
Something tells me no he won't. Dms that usually do are the ones that players stay away from like the plague. And if they do it's a few levels into the character.
That's not how fancy dinner parties work. Those of who aren't wealthy enough to host that sort of party are expected to serve, and if our lord is very very kind we get to eat the leftovers.
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Not to mention do to many favors to one or more players then eventually they assume and expect that top continue. While also causing unessary friction at the table. Worse it does not make the player who can't keep up try to improve. Why would he or she try to when your bending over backwards to accodomate the player.
Baal one of the best methods of altering rewards to better encourage role playing is to alter the XP system.
In my mixed play type game I use Story Achievements as the largest reward. These are flat XP awards given for achieving story goals and they make it easier to get people involved with the story rather than simply killing stuff. They also allow me to more accurately control when the group will level as a whole. Secondly I have an ad hoc award system that rewards all the stuff I like to see people doing in game. Examples of these rewards include Use of your background during an encounter, Appropriate use of a skill to affect a challenge, Good teamwork, Acting out of a personality trait during an encounter, The stayed in character award, Clever idea or tactic, achieving a motivational award, and acting as an exemplar of your moral alignment just to name a few. Lastly I issue CR based XP at a much reduced rate usually around 1/4 depending on how plot critical the fight is.
IF you take the suggestion that there is no magic items for sale and magic items are extremely vaueable, AND you really only hand out magic items that dont match the OP player's build type (IE you give a staff for the monk, a dagger for the rogue, and no magic falchion for the OP super critting barb)It wont matter if he suspects your doing something or not.
Also theres nothing wrong with saying "oh by the way I do hand out a lot of extra Xp to players for various reasons that dont have anything to do with combat" and ta-da it does not matter how well the powergamer knows the rules.
People are not dumb. It will matter because they will feel like you are showing bias against them. They will know that by denying them items that you are trying to hold them back. The players catch on quickly. There are many threads on this board about the same thing being tried.
It normally starts with "My GM always gives player X what he wants/needs, but I never get anything nice...." He also notes that he is better in combat than the other players.
It is just better to be honest, and ask the player in question to tone things down or tell them that your playstyles don't match. Yeah feelings might get hurt, but if you the playstyles don't match and you continue to play with them, you are only delaying the inevitable.
edit:clarification.
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In a way it sort of blows me away that these kinds of guys are even playing an RPG, if they really just wanted combat and "oh look how awesome my build is compared to your weak ass build!" why arent they just playing magic, or minatures games, why play a role playing game and just live for the annoyance factor?Why are the Roleplayers playing a role-playing GAME instead of going to the theater club?
Also theres nothing wrong with saying "oh by the way I do hand out a lot of extra Xp to players for various reasons that dont have anything to do with combat" and ta-da it does not matter how well the powergamer knows the rules.Oh, I don't know about that. The Powergamer could always try to roleplay. Then he would be good at combat AND get more XP.
^ So much this.
Or maybe you will penalize the evil powergamers by judging that their roleplay is not good enough to deserve XP ? After all, they already dominate combat, gaining xp by exploiting your own houserules would be so unfair.You are dismissing opinions because supposedly, your caricatural powergamer doing absolutely no roleplay is a threatening reality.
Until you understand that all players are supposed to expect equal treatment around the table (this balance-through-magic-items-distribution is b#!&~@+$
) and that the dm is just a player with different powers, you will be a terrible dm.
I would never play at the table of such kind of dm, I already had enough of this style to deal with... and the loss isn't mine in the story.
Most of these "anti-powergaming" tips would just make me even more godlike considering I put as much effort into my min-maxed character as I do into my backstory.
I'd have twice the XP of everyone else.
Seriously, how many "non-powergamers" here have spent a week learning to emulate an accent just to play a character?
Do you have any idea how hard it is for a white Canadian guy with a mild speech impediment to emulate a Nigerian accent?
Don't even get me started on South African. I can't roll R's to save my life.
The easiest method for me, is usually banning certain feats/spells/items etc that are key to a build. For instance, I don't allow the Snap Shot line of feats, Eldritch Heritage, Antagonize, Clustered Shot, Litany of Righteousness, to name a few things.
Nixing these things, and making it clear they aren't allowed, can often times nip many things in the bud before they get ridiculous.
Wow, Snap Shot is messed. The Whipped Chain Fighter all over again. And Litany of Righteousness. Wow. Double damage. Really? As if Pallies didn't already do incredible skeetloads of damage. What's broken about Eldritch Heritage and Antagonize though? And Clustered Shots? Are you sketched by that because of the Massive Damage rule?
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Wow, Snap Shot is messed. The Whipped Chain Fighter all over again. And Litany of Righteousness. Wow. Double damage. Really? As if Pallies didn't already do incredible skeetloads of damage. What's broken about Eldritch Heritage and Antagonize though? And Clustered Shots? Are you sketched by that because of the Massive Damage rule?The easiest method for me, is usually banning certain feats/spells/items etc that are key to a build. For instance, I don't allow the Snap Shot line of feats, Eldritch Heritage, Antagonize, Clustered Shot, Litany of Righteousness, to name a few things.
Nixing these things, and making it clear they aren't allowed, can often times nip many things in the bud before they get ridiculous.
I don't see how Snap Shot is a problem...as an archer the last thing you want is to be next to someone anyways. If they were next to you odds are you are going to be running not standing there and making AoOs.
And Clustered Shots requires a full attack action...any good GM will allow it and just make sure that you don't ALWAYS let that player stand and nuke. My campaign has a Gunslinger with the feat and he fires both barrels of his double barrel pistols and has TWF and Rapid shot so the number of shots is high...I just make sure to make him keep moving so he can't abuse Clustered Shots.
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Most of these "anti-powergaming" tips would just make me even more godlike considering I put as much effort into my min-maxed character as I do into my backstory.
I'd have twice the XP of everyone else.
Seriously, how many "non-powergamers" here have spent a week learning to emulate an accent just to play a character?
Do you have any idea how hard it is for a white Canadian guy with a mild speech impediment to emulate a Nigerian accent?
Don't even get me started on South African. I can't roll R's to save my life.
I am right there with you Fleshgrinder.
The people who call me a powergamer are usually the same people who put no effort into their character at all. Some of my most "twinked" concepts had many typed pages of backstory, many iconic quotes, a unique sense of style, a full hand drawn character sketch and even a unique way of talking. I built them for games I expected to span over years of play. I play in supportive roles and even encourage other players to take the spot light as opposed to just doing everything myself. However because my characters were better in combat "stronger" then the competitive minded players at the table in question, I was labled a power gamer and shunned.
Needless to say I have joined many other groups since then and never had a similar problem with any of them. Some people just have dramatically different play styles and you really just have to find out if they match yours. This whole debate is moot as you are not going to convince people what is and is not fun. Trying to tell people to play in a way they do not enjoy is just going to blow up in your face every time. Always remember the Platinum Rule- People are there to play a game and have fun, not argue and bicker. Also it is just a game, if you are not having fun then what is the point of even playing?
HOLY THREAD RESURRECTION BATMAN!
Edit:
Also what possible way is the 15th level fighter getting 8 attacks? If he's using TWF, ITWF, and GTWF that will still only get him 6. Haste will get him 7, not 8. Also, DR 15 vs that character is something I use quite often.
For the Cavalier, kill his mount. Seriously. Just cream the s+++ out of it. No more lance charging. Or you can use walls, rough terrain, low ceilings, and other impediments to prevent charging lanes from being accessible.
Assuming you allowed a player to start with an 18 in a casting stat, they took a race that gave a +2 bonus, they have a +6 int enhancement, and put all their ability level bonuses into int and maybe bought a +1 or +2 manual for the stat 30 is actually valid. In the future cap all stat at 16 with point buy. And you are using point buy and not rolling right? I can't tell you the insane number of times I've seen players swear they "can't believe they rolled that well!"
HOLY THREAD RESURRECTION BATMAN!
Edit:
Also what possible way is the 15th level fighter getting 8 attacks? If he's using TWF, ITWF, and GTWF that will still only get him 6. Haste will get him 7, not 8. Also, DR 15 vs that character is something I use quite often.For the Cavalier, kill his mount. Seriously. Just cream the s#~# out of it. No more lance charging. Or you can use walls, rough terrain, low ceilings, and other impediments to prevent charging lanes from being accessible.
Assuming you allowed a player to start with an 18 in a casting stat, they took a race that gave a +2 bonus, they have a +6 int enhancement, and put all their ability level bonuses into int and maybe bought a +1 or +2 manual for the stat 30 is actually valid. In the future cap all stat at 16 with point buy. And you are using point buy and not rolling right? I can't tell you the insane number of times I've seen players swear they "can't believe they rolled that well!"
~smiles~
I have said that exact thing after rolling incredibly well once. Fortunately in my case I rolled in front of everyone or no one would have believed me.
As for the fighter... maybe he found a way to add natural attacks to his routine? That could add a fair number of attacks per round.