Fair enough, though that does make the Razortusk feat rather pointless (charging twice as much for the same thing).
Depends on what is available to be used in a game. More people will have access to the "core books" than every single supplement out there. I know that I spend ALOT more on my gaming hobby than anyone else in the group, but the other side of that is if I didn't our group wouldn't have half the books/pdfs we have access to currently. If we didn't have it for the GM to look through, we probably wouldn't be using it even if it were on the PRD or some online resource.
Yeah. They teach all Fighters how to use them in Fighter School. You know... in case they ever have a tail.I don't know if you mean to be serious or not with that comment... but with the number of ways to be polymorphed or reincarnated I could actually see a fighter college doing that.
I was being sarcastic. I'll hold up my sign next time. ;) But, I guess your right in some respect. It just doesn't seem common enough to be martial for every race of Fighter, IMO. It should be Exotic for any race that does not have a tail and Martial for all of those who do.
If you use two Claw Blades do you need to have Two Weapon Fighting to use them effectively?
Since it makes them into a light weapon I would say yes.
Now if only we could turn Claw blades into a monk weapon my catfolk monk will be complete.
Claw Blades: These subtle blades can only be used by catfolk with the cat’s claws racial trait. Bought in a set of five, they fit over the wearer’s claws on one hand. The blades grant the wearer a +1 enhancement bonus on claw attack rolls with that hand and change the weapon type from a natural weapon to a light slashing weapon. Catfolk with the cat’s claws racial trait are proficient with this weapon. The claw blades can be enhanced like a masterwork weapon for the normal costs. The listed cost of the item is for one set of five claws for one hand.
BBT exactly how are humans and assiamar using a item that is only usable by a specific race with a specific Racial Trait.
Scratch that I can see a human managing it but the assiamar?
Since it makes them into a light weapon I would say yes.
Now if only we could turn Claw blades into a monk weapon my catfolk monk will be complete.
Feral Combat Training (Claw) makes 'claw' attacks in essence monk weapons. Claw blades make a single 'claw' attack a light slashing weapon. It is no longer a natural weapon BUT it is a 'claw' attack. Seeing as none of the prereqs are actually "a natural claw weapon" loss of the natural weapon type means nothing to FCT and allows the use of a 'claw' attack with claw blades as a monk weapon.
Ty time to go pester my DM
If you use two Claw Blades do you need to have Two Weapon Fighting to use them effectively?
Yes, loss of the natural weapon 'type' means you can no longer use your natural weapon attack routine with them. You have to go TWF or +6/+1 to use two claw attacks both with claw blades in the same round without resorting to other options (FCT and FoB).
Ty time to go pester my DM
Just remember after a certain point your unarmed strikes will be doing more damage than your claws....don't dump all your money into claw blades. Mid to late levels AoMF will be much better.
Talonhawke, you actually had the same idea I was going for with that question. ;)
So, I think it would be something like Claw/Claw becomes Claw itterive -2, Claw itterive -2, flurry Claw itterive -2. Right? So a level 1 Catfolk Monk with Feral Combat Training, Claw Blades, and the Claws trait could pull off 3 attacks/turn?
Technically, I suppose you could also strap on a tail blade for an additional secondary attack at -5. Any way aside from barbarian to get a bite attack? How about a pounce and rake? Looks like we are getting pretty close to just playing an anthropomorphic tiger at this point.
In other news.... HOOOOOEEEE!!!!!
Also, I don't think you'd have to Claw Blade up both claws. That way you are getting all the benefits of natural attacks with one claw including the AoMF enhancements, as well as getting all the benefits of having a manufactured weapon including iterative attacks and weapon enhancements on your Claw Blade hand.
I dunno. Even though I'm against SKR's Monk ruling I am starting to see at least why he thinks it should be that way.
Talonhawke, you actually had the same idea I was going for with that question. ;)
So, I think it would be something like Claw/Claw becomes Claw itterive -2, Claw itterive -2, flurry Claw itterive -2. Right? So a level 1 Catfolk Monk with Feral Combat Training, Claw Blades, and the Claws trait could pull off 3 attacks/turn?
Technically, I suppose you could also strap on a tail blade for an additional secondary attack at -5. Any way aside from barbarian to get a bite attack? How about a pounce and rake? Looks like we are getting pretty close to just playing an anthropomorphic tiger at this point.
In other news.... HOOOOOEEEE!!!!!
A first level catfolk monk would get 2 attacks using FoB, you can't mix up natural attacks with FoB.
http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1g1#v5748eaic9ozd
Dangit. Your right. I sometimes forget that change from 3.x.
Wait. So that is kinds sucky, right? If you Claw Blade up one claw but not the other you can no longer use them together? Yeah, that doesn't make sense...
Why not?
Because the folks at Paizo say it doesn't? Read the link I edited onto my post.
Shh! I never posted "Why not?" It didn't happen.
Dangit. Your right. I sometimes forget that change from 3.x.
Wait. So that is kinds sucky, right? If you Claw Blade up one claw but not the other you can no longer use them together? Yeah, that doesn't make sense...
Completely depends on the race/character build. At lower levels when the damage is comparable it helps, if you have a rider effect (poison, etc.) on the natural weapon (which you would maybe only get 1 attack w/ as a natural weapon) definitely worth it.
Wait a tic, I know what I was thinking:
Feral Combat Training (Combat)
You were taught a style of martial arts that relies on the natural weapons from your racial ability or class feature.
Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Focus with selected natural weapon.
Benefit: Choose one of your natural weapons. While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike.
Special: If you are a monk, you can use the selected natural weapon with your flurry of blows class feature.
Bolding mine. Thats the important part. So yeah, thats 3 attacks at first level, right? Well, actually it would be 3rd level cause you need Weapon Focus to qualify for Feral Combat Training and the next feat you get after that is 3rd.
Wait a tic, I know what I was thinking:
Bolding mine. Thats the important part. So yeah, thats 3 attacks at first level, right? Well, actually it would be 3rd level cause you need Weapon Focus to qualify for Feral Combat Training and the next feat you get after that is 3rd.Feral Combat Training (Combat)
You were taught a style of martial arts that relies on the natural weapons from your racial ability or class feature.
Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Focus with selected natural weapon.
Benefit: Choose one of your natural weapons. While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike.
Special: If you are a monk, you can use the selected natural weapon with your flurry of blows class feature.
Still no, normally you cannot use anything besides a monk weapon or unarmed strike for FoB. The feat makes your selected attack into a monk weapon. It can now be used as part of FoB.
What do you mean "still no"? It clearly works. You can use the natural attacks that were selected as part of a flurry of blows. You have two natural attacks plus your flurry attack.
What do you mean "still no"? It clearly works. You can use the natural attacks that were selected as part of a flurry of blows. You have two natural attacks plus your flurry attack.
I mean "No, it doesn't work that way." Did you even read the FAQ where it EXPRESSLY says you can't do what you are trying to do?
The feat does not allow you to make your normal flurry of blows attack sequence plus one or more natural attacks with the natural weapon. In other words, if you can flurry for four attacks per round, with this feat you still only make four attacks per round... but any number of those attacks may be with the selected natural weapon. —Sean K Reynolds, 02/15/12
Did you even read where I said:
I dunno. Even though I'm against SKR's Monk ruling I am starting to see at least why he thinks it should be that way.
?
I like SKR. I typically agree with most things he says. His Monk rulings have not been very popular with me or with many on these boards, though.
I do wonder though if this ruling is the popular opinion among those on the boards. Hopefully I don't derail the thread too much and I can start another thread if it does but do people agree with Sean's ruling on that or is it as hotly contested as his other Monk rulings?
Unfortuntely in this thread (in the Rules forum) it isn't about how we feel it should work. People come here looking for how it does work. When in this particular forum I try to keep as much of my opinion out of it as possible and stick to the letter of the rules. I'm not a designer from Paizo, I don't know their intent, I fully admit it.
Ideally they are reading the forums and if we come up with something that is way off they see it and "fix" it.
When someone supplies the appropriate ruling on a subject in the Rules forum, and another person says "no it works like this" and details something contrary to the actual rules... well, they should expect to be corrected. It isn't personal, it is just making sure the actual rules of the game are being observed, as they should be in this forum. People come here looking for answers, not more confusion.
Obviously with the last part of your post you realize the discussion of whether the rules are "right" doesn't belong here so I'm not going to harp on that ;)
Well I am interested in how people feel it should work. Being that this is a rules forum and I am interested in how people feel that the rules should work, I feel that it is the correct forum to post in.
As I said, I like SKR and respect his rulings. However, I also understand that his rulings particularly in regards to Monks have not been popular among those on these boards. Many have even went as far as to vocally (textually?) flat out deny that his Monk rulings were even valid in many cases because it completely breaks entire archetypes and is contrary to published Pathfinder material. I wonder if that extends to his ruling with this particular feat or not.
Skylancer: I do not take anything you have said personally. I invite you to share your opinion. Or not. But your opinion on whether I should ask this question in this forum or not does not concern me one iota. Especially as I am among many people sharing their opinions about how things should work.
Given that Paizo has moved threads to various places where they are more appropriate, I'm fairly confident that asking how people think the rules should work is a "derail" as you so aptly called it yourself in this particular forum and thread. That type of question would be much more suited to the General Discussion, Advice or even Suggestion forums. If you are really interested in the subject start a thread in one of those forums and pop a link here for anyone that wants to pursue it with you. Chances are you'll even get more views and interest there than you would here.
I'm under no illusions about opinions, this is the internet and truth be told your opinion means about as much as mine or anyone else's. Which is nothing to anyone. I would just prefer to stay on topic and deal with the actual PFRPG rules in the Rules forum. I'm interested in how they work, it's game and I prefer to operate within and play it they way the designers/writers say it works. It is why myself and others may frequent this forum more than others.
Nah, I think I'll post it here, thanx.
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Discussing RAW and RAI are both acceptable within the rules forum.
When both are unclear, discussing how to run it a home game is fine too.
Well, I have discovered, and posted, ways that other races can use two of the listed items, now the Tailblade.
How can you do it?
Are there other ways for other races to wield these weapons?
So I am still totally wondering what the board's response to the above ruling is. Flurry of Blows + Feral Combat Training = you still can not get your natural attacks along with your Flurry of Blows attacks?
Why not? I mean if you can get your iterative manufactured weapon attacks + natural attacks then why wouldn't you be able to do so with FoB? Especially after spending a feat that from RAW totally sounds like it would allow it.
As I understand it you can not take a natural attack with the same limb you used to make a manufactured weapon attack with. Thats groovy. I also understand that you can not normally mix natural attacks with unarmed strikes. Although I'm not sure why from a balance perspective if you are allowed to do so with manufactured weapons. It seems like you would just be held to the same limitation: that you couldn't use the same limb to make both a natural and an unarmed attack. ...but when you take a feat and it says that you can use the natural weapon with a FoB I don't get why it needs a FAQ that directly contradicts the feat's wording.
I love Pathfinder but I get annoyed sometimes when I feel like people don't use commonsense when it comes to things like this. If you don't have the appropriate body part, you can't can't attack with it, you can't arm it with a weapon, you can't wag it at people. Period. No manner of Feat loopholes or racial traits should affect that.
Except, of course, feats that give you body parts that allow you to use those racial traits.
You can use your monk weapons "with" a FoB. The FCT feat states you can use a single type of natural attack "with" a FoB. The first doesn't allow you to FoB and then make attacks on top of the FoB with the monk weapon. Why would the feat do that? The FAQ doesn't contradict the feat, it clears up some peoples failed reading comprehension of it and gives examples of how it actually works.
Basically it does exactly what a FAQ is supposed to do.
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Feral Combat Training does not allow you to use your natural attacks in addition to the Flurry, but instead, allows you to use them during flurry.
Basically, it turns the natural attack into a monk weapon.
See FAQ here.
Setting aside the issue of Feral Combat Training + Flurry of Blows for a moment, lets instead look at Feral Combat Training + Improved Unarmed Strike.
If you happen to have a natural attack, lets say a bite attack and you wish to attack with a manufactured weapon as well as your natural attack this is permissible within the rules. The natural attack simply becomes a secondary attack that you make in addition to your iterative attacks that you make with your manufactured weapon.
Now, if you have Improved Unarmed Strike - like for instance from the Monk's Unarmed Strike class ability - and you have a bite natural attack this also still works. You get to make all of your iterative attacks with your Unarmed Strikes, plus you can follow up with your bite as a secondary natural attack.
Now Monks gain an improved form of Improved Unarmed Strike and also get Flurry. Flurry, in most ways emulates Two Weapon Fighting. But for those characters that do not have a level of Monk but wish to fight unarmed they can take a combination of Improved Unarmed Strike and the Two Weapon Fighting feats and pretty much accomplish the same thing.
So in this example if you were an Unarmed Fighter archetype and you had a bite natural attack as well as the Improved Unarmed Strike and Two Weapon Fighting feats then you could make all of your iterative attacks plus your off hand attacks and follow it up with a bite secondary natural attack.
Why then with a Monk can you not make a Flurry of Blows and then follow up with a secondary bite natural attack? You even paid a feat tax like the Unarmed Fighter and took Feral Combat Training, a feat that pretty much outright says that you should be able to combine the two. Not only that but Monks are considered the BEST among all unarmed fighters and you took a feat that is the only real feat that is made to mix natural attacks and unarmed attacks. So everyone else can do this except you? Oh wait... you can do it. You just have to take the Two Weapon Fighting line of feats despite the fact that you have a class ability that mimics it.
What? What reason is there for this other than "because the developers said so"?
Look. I normally agree with the developer's rulings. However there are some recent rulings for the Monk that I can just not get behind. It really seems like they are getting hit by the nerf stick for no reason at all. It isn't a balance issue, it isn't a logic issue, what is it?
Yeah, that is definitely true.
Just curious, BBT, where do you weigh in on this?
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Flurry is it's own, odd, thing. As far as I can tell, flurry is a special full round action.
It works in weird, wonky ways, that are different from two weapon fighting, or even common full attacks.
To me, FCT turns one natural attack into a monk weapon, for the purposes of flurry. This means, that if you want to use it, and flurry, you have to use it as you would a monk weapon.
Well, thats just dumb. I mean, not you, but it just is silly to me. I understand that the Monk's Unarmed Strike specifically states that you can not make natural attacks as part of a flurry. But the feat specifically says that you CAN. That is fine, we all know that feats basically modify what the normal rules allow. That is what feats do.
To have a developer come and contradict what the wording of the feat clearly allows... its just... well, its dumb. It seems like it is one person declaring his intention and saying that is what THE intention of the feat is. Kinda like the ruling on Flurry of Blows.
I dunno, I just don't agree with it.
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Yes there is.
"Feral Combat Training (page 101): What does “with” in the Special line for this feat mean for monks making a flurry of blows?
Normally a monk who has natural attacks (such as a lizardfolk monk with claw attacks) cannot use those natural attacks as part of a flurry of blows (Core Rulebook 57). Feral Combat Training allows you to use the selected natural attack as if it were a monk weapon—you can use it as one of your flurry of blows attacks, use it to deploy special attacks that require you to use a monk weapon, apply the effects of the natural weapon (such as a poisonous bite) for each flurry of blows attack, and so on.
The feat does not allow you to make your normal flurry of blows attack sequence plus one or more natural attacks with the natural weapon. In other words, if you can flurry for four attacks per round, with this feat you still only make four attacks per round... but any number of those attacks may be with the selected natural weapon.
—Sean K Reynolds, 02/15/12"
http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1g1#v5748eaic9ozd