Goblin Squad Member
|
Everything I have heard about the goals behind PFO sound great but I've gotten kind of curious about what the plans are for the crafting side of things.
There was some mention in one of the blogs about how a lot of the items in game should come from the player base and that got me wondering how much of a mini-game Crafting is going to be.
How much control are Craftsmen going to have over what they make.
Say I make a Dwarven Weaponsmith, Do I spend my game banging out generic looking swords and axes, or do I get to side down with a modeler of some kind and design "The Axe of Seven Mountains" for some deserving adventurer who has earned my favor.
Will other players be able to look at what another character is carrying and be able to say.
"Ah, you got that from that Dwarf on Fleet Street in Karbos, didn't you"
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I've also been wondering a bit about this, as I intend to craft intensively. My guess is that you set the item's properties through dropdowns & radio buttons, input its name (and maybe yours) in text fields, and possibly select color options; thereafter, your PC is engaged in crafting for X minutes/hours and you read a book or something.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I've also been wondering a bit about this, as I intend to craft intensively. My guess is that you set the item's properties through dropdowns & radio buttons, input its name (and maybe yours) in text fields, and possibly select color options; thereafter, your PC is engaged in crafting for X minutes/hours and you read a book or something.
I'm kind of hoping for something more immersive than that.
What happens if I use different mixtures of metals, can I carve runes on the haft, can I create a basic template look for all my weapons so everyone knows they are buying a Balrick Ironsoul creation. If I want to forge a magic weapon do I need to go looking for exotic materials.
In it's own way Crafting needs to be as engaging as adventuring. It's just something that is going to appeal to a different kind of player.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Hopefully it will be more than just "point and click" crafting. Would be cool to make weapons mod-able in some fashion. I would frequent crafters that made weapons or other things that suit my or my character's style.
Haven't some games tried actual "mini-games" with their crafting? I'm not too sure how that turns out. It might just add tedium to the boredom if its not executed well.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'll do some expectation setting here.
In the beginning, the complexity we'll be working on will be the matrix of inputs and outputs, not a variety of outputs. That kind of work has a very high cost in terms of development time & art, and a relatively low impact to attracting and retaining active players. It has a benefit, certainly, but there are other things that have a much higher return on time & money invested.
The crafting game is going to be all about figuring out what you can make with various combinations of materials, and how to make that stuff as cheaply as possible, then get it sold where it commands the highest possible price.
As a crafter, you won't have much (if any) personalization options on the finished goods.
Over time of course all these systems will iterate and become more complex, and there's no telling where they may evolve into over the next several years. Your feedback will help shape those evolutions.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
As a crafter, you won't have much (if any) personalization options on the finished goods.
That's a bit disappointing to hear. I was hoping we would be able to make the items we crafted a bit unique, if only to put our own personal mark on it showing that we crafted it.
Hopefully something like that will become available down the road.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
The crafting game is going to be all about figuring out what you can make with various combinations of materials, and how to make that stuff as cheaply as possible, then get it sold where it commands the highest possible price.
Interesting. So it will go beyond just crafting the items but also going about making them and distributing them in the best possible way. I'd assume the best way to make and sell an item will shift regularly with the economy.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
The crafting game is going to be all about figuring out what you can make with various combinations of materials, and how to make that stuff as cheaply as possible, then get it sold where it commands the highest possible price.
Hey guildies - The people over in Yaddaville have put out a call for more armor. Let's get cracking! We need to produce these faster than those chumps in woohoo guild.
Sounds about right.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I plan on running a tavern/inn type establishment, and was wondering about a couple things, if you could provide any insight at this time :) ( I understand it is all subject to change, and I like that your system is a growing, evolving thing.) Crafts require proficiencies that can be leveled up with the input of time and resources. Are you considering putting an innkeeper on a similar path? It says in the blog about the different types of structures that Inns would allow characters to log out safely, offer limited storage, and if upgraded could enhance content in the entire hex. These are all very nice benefits. BUT, an inn will require your time to build it and run it I assume, your resources to keep it stocked, protected, and eventually upgraded. What kind of return does it offer to the person putting all of this effort into it. Will players be charged to use the storage and log out there? My question is why would I want to be the one running the Inn, besides being charitable to people who need a place to stay, enhancing the content in the hex for the people that want to go adventure, and some opportunities for awesome roleplay? Not trying to sound greedy, but if I put half the time and effort into weapon smithing for example, I could end up very well to do. Its fair to say people need weapons. People need armor. It is just an accepted fact of the game. I think food and shelter could also be added to that list.
Speaking of food, I am hoping that cooking will be a focused craft as well. I believe there is some evidence to support this because of the title to the professions blog, being 'Butcher, Bakers, and Candlestick makers' , and there would definitely be some draw to go to an inn if they offered food there. If food provided an in game mechanic some how. It could be a debuff for not eating for days at a time and starving your character. Your average meals (some cheaply made trail rations for example) remove the debuff, but provide no bonus. Finally eating a meal prepared by someone who spent his in and out of character time honing his craft and resources gathering rare ingredients,could provide different benefits depending on what you eat. If it does absolutely nothing different for you to eat hard tack compared to the steak and lobster, I feel I (and any other cooks or brewers out there) will have a hard time justifying focusing on that as well.
I don't want this to come across as negative... I love just about everything every blog has said about the game. I enjoy the thought of how I want to develop in game, and wanted to make sure my current path provided a viable opportunity to help the community and enhance my own experience in what looks to be an awesome world.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I plan on running a tavern/inn type establishment, ... Inns would allow characters to log out safely, offer limited storage, and if upgraded could enhance content in the entire hex... Will players be charged to use the storage and log out there?
I think this is a brilliant idea in that it mimics that actual reason for an inn. A temporary "home" away from home. While I am not a fan of any instancing, I could see how developing an inn could give it additional instanced rooms, each tied to a player and treated like a house (with security and minimal storage). Characters must agree to pay a weekly upkeep to maintain the room and that money goes to the innkeeper. Who in turn uses that money to maintain the inn...(or they can actually gather materials to do so) and keep it all as profit.
A "rested" buff gives a slight bonus to skills for an in-game day and is only acquirable by spending at least a night in an inn (logged in or out).
People who run out of money or skip out on their bill (assume renting a room is like a contract...or even is a contract) take a hit to their "lawfulness".
Finally, I agree with Threecoppers in that inns should provide a free "kitchen". That allows the creation of foods...which in turn I can expect provide either a sustenance requirement (maybe food is necessary for or buffs recovery), of provides some form of benefit and/or buff.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
crafting needs to be able to allow the maker customization in multiple ways
size of item, resources used to make it, colors and design of it, option to carve runes in it, option to have a weapon name or the name of the crafter appear on it, and lots and lots of designs
also, a variant of such crafter could be architect, I would rather play a noble and architect than the usual classes, so I can build and influence the game world on many levels
I wish to be able to build settlements and castles, design it to the lowest details, I want to raise statues from NPC-s and player characters, and an ability to hold festivals and raise an army
I would love to see these freedoms in a game...that would be a real sandbox imo...with actual sand, not just the proverbial lack of limits. Throw some halfway decent graphics, an entirely customizable UI (why waste time deving it when the community/fans want to do it?), and a boatload of animations to top it off...Mmmmm...
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Speaking of food, I am hoping that cooking will be a focused craft as well. I believe there is some evidence to support this because of the title to the professions blog, being 'Butcher, Bakers, and Candlestick makers' , and there would definitely be some draw to go to an inn if they offered food there. If food provided an in game mechanic some how. It could be a debuff for not eating for days at a time and starving your character. Your average meals (some cheaply made trail rations for example) remove the debuff, but provide no bonus. Finally eating a meal prepared by someone who spent his...
I may be in the minority out there, but as a roleplayer my character has specific likes and dislikes for the food and drinks he would eat. So while there may be no mechanical benefit to eating steak and lobster over trail rations, my pc would willing spend money on the things he likes, for no other reason that it makes sense RP wise. To me it adds to the immersion of my character.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I may be in the minority out there, but as a roleplayer my character has specific likes and dislikes for the food and drinks he would eat. So while there may be no mechanical benefit to eating steak and lobster over trail rations, my pc would willing spend money on the things he likes, for no other reason that it makes sense RP wise. To me it adds to the immersion of my character.
Speaking of food, I am hoping that cooking will be a focused craft as well. I believe there is some evidence to support this because of the title to the professions blog, being 'Butcher, Bakers, and Candlestick makers' , and there would definitely be some draw to go to an inn if they offered food there. If food provided an in game mechanic some how. It could be a debuff for not eating for days at a time and starving your character. Your average meals (some cheaply made trail rations for example) remove the debuff, but provide no bonus. Finally eating a meal prepared by someone who spent his...
Agreed, I just hope they build the game so even non-RPers are encouraged to act in a logical and realistic manner...if only for the mechanical benefits.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I like what I heard of the SWG system. You have grey bars that slowly increase over time negating part of your health, stamina, etc. if you don't find a place to rest. I would say cap them at 30% or so so that grey bars can't kill you, and are more of a reflection of being out on the road not getting enough sleep or good food. Anyone who does much camping will know the feeling of getting up in a damp tent after a salt packed meal of junk the night before. Eventually you really just want to go home and sleep in a bed.
Inn's/taverns/homes would be places to go and drink, and listen to the music, and get a bit of sleep so you could remove they greybars.
Out on the road though, there needs to be an incentive to set-up camp, make some dinner, and catch some rest in a dry tent. I would make this a buff that when you make camp, depending on how the area is effected by harsh climate conditions, how good of food you have, etc. it gives you a buff of varying effectiveness that slows down the rate at which you build greybar. So if it's cold and sleeting outside and you make some moldy beans and then just rest on the ground, if it even allows you to go to sleep you won't get much of a buff. If you find a cave, have a cold weather/waterproof tent, or build a really nice shelter, and curl up in a high quality fur-lined sleeping bag near a fire after a good meal or rabbit, basil, and bean stew, you're going to REALLY slow the rate at which you build greybar.
I depends on the party members. Some parties have a crafter or two. Other don't have a single crafter. Either way, each party can still rock the house and defeat their foes, pick up loot and magic items along the way. Crafters are an available option but not necessarily essential. It also depends on what sort of campaign is being run. If there are significantly huge things going down and the party is on the clock to stop it,they may not have time to craft.
I've had to deal with it, had to wait while others did it, sat there as they cheerfully raised their stats with not an ounce of heroism or risk in game.
It has been banned from my games, magic crafting that is. Don't bother. I say something like "heroes don't craft magic items, get out there and earn them". If I lose another hour to magic item crafting, pages will be eaten during rage.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I've had to deal with it, had to wait while others did it, sat there as they cheerfully raised their stats with not an ounce of heroism or risk in game.
It has been banned from my games, magic crafting that is. Don't bother. I say something like "heroes don't craft magic items, get out there and earn them". If I lose another hour to magic item crafting, pages will be eaten during rage.
We are talking more about a full blown crafting system. This is a full blown MMO injected with lore and archetypes from Golarion not a straight translation of PF tabletop rules. Not everyone will even be a hero.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I can see your points Equalizer and Loyalist, but I have to respectfully disagree. Not saying its black or white, right and wrong scenario, but I'm of the opinion that though time may be of the essence in some cases, that's where good planning and preparation come into play. The party might not have time to craft while fighting to save everyone, but someone has been crafting items the whole time and is ready to help save the world in their own way. Adventuring parties will be powerhouses in PFO if that is what they dedicate their skill points to. Fighting epic enemies, I admit, could be risky. So why not constantly equip yourself as best you can if you know that's the line of work you are interested in? Something else to consider is this isn't exactly the same as the table top, due to the fact that there is a world to settle. It won't be just a kick the door in, take the gold, and save the prisoner. That will certainly be an aspect, and I'm sure there will be huge rewards, be it gold, consumables, or the equivalent to a +5 great sword of fiery doom every now and then. But in the blog, they stated the emphasis of the industry triangle between the characters. This being anything from an adventurer's ability to fight through spells or blades, and using those powers not only for gain and glory, but to protect gatherers as they seek rarer and rarer materials. It has been stated the gathering process will attract unwelcome company. The reward for these exploits will be glorious raw materials, which will one way or the other be dispersed to folks who specialize in processing the materials for the good of everyone. Be it better equipment for the adventurers to being able to settle further into the river kingdom, or building new settlements, thus providing new challenge and opportunities for them and higher demand for raw materials. In conclusion, I hope that gathering and crafting will be its own expansive realm as much as adventuring in PFO, as the blogs are suggesting, so that it can be more than a hack and slash game and truly be its own living world.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I think this fatigue system could help give incentive for players to rest in an inn. You will not be able to train skill points if you are fatigued, or something else like you'd fall unconscious... I prefer the former. It could take around 1 to 5 minutes (5 might be too long) to recover your energy while asleep. You can still carry a sleeping bag around with you, but using that will make you horribly vulnerable to bandits and pickpockets. Inns provide you with the safety you need in this harsh world.
While I agree with a fatigue system, I would say based on the way skill training works in the game, that would discourage people from training skills and playing at the same time. Someone going out and running adventures etc... might not always be able to get rest every time, and thus would actually be further behind in skills, to someone who litterally never leaves the inn except to do the bare minimum of requirements for a merit badge. Also it is worth noting, not everyone will always be able to train skills, in the currently proposed system, it is very likely that some people if having a short month on money, may opt not to buy skill training one month, and adventure to try and earn that money. With the penelty for not resting being to skill training, that means one of 2 unpleasent ideas.
1. The penalty creating a defacite in training. IE if the person winds up stacking 2 weeks worth of training penelties before he can afford to buy a training package, half of what he bought is completely lost.
2. The penelty is moot for this person, IE he can be out hunting and adventuring 24/7 without ever paying the slightest attention to fatigue until he can start training again.
When it comes to penelties, I believe it is always best to put them into directly effecting what you did to get the penalty, rather than to penalize something different. The penalty for exhausting yourself adventuring, should be something that effects your adventuring. (slower move speed, weaker attacks, less HP etc...)
I am entirely in favor of the SWG system Andius mentioned, IE things that encorage people into social scenerios such as taverns, or even a party adventuring together stopping to gather around a campfire en-route to a dungeon. The tired old get a group together, everyone goes in and kills all the monsters clears the objectives, without anyone having a single conversation unrelated to the dungeon. I would love for a game to actually encorage some downtime where you just chat with your newly met team and learn a bit about them.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I can see your point Equalizer, but I support Andius. Adventuring parties will be powerhouses in PFO if that is what they dedicate their skill points too. But this isn't exactly the same as the table top, in the fact that there is a world to settle.
i'm thinking this topic just got active enough to hit the normal paizo's popular threads or something, as both equalizer and 3.5 loyalist both appear to be talking of normal P&P (I really hope GW get's a forum up soon to lower these mixups, while I certainly love hearing the input from people who enjoy the tabletop game (which I also do)), the confusion caused when people are unknowingly talking 2 separate topics can be annoying.
If somehow we aren't just talking past eachother, I would point out that in terms of PFO, someones crafting abilities are more or less going to be non-factors for their parties when out adventuring, with the exception of possibly chosing to make a deal based on something else, there will be very little difference between finding a swordsmith who you met in a party, and meeting one in the business district of a city.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
In conclusion, I hope that gathering and crafting will be its own expansive realm as much as adventuring in PFO, as the blogs are suggesting, so that it can be more than a hack and slash game and truly be its own living world.
This is exactly what I hope for, as well. I think a lot of people view crafting as a 'side' event. Their focus is on an adventurer archtype, but they want the option to craft when they have time without worries of affecting their capstone.
I would like crafting to be just as needed as an adventurer archtype. Not necessarily going out and conquering strongholds or slaying monsters, but needed back at base in supplying them with food, items and especially weapons and armor.
I've said this before, but I do hope the game will be set up where different archtypes will have overlapping skills. A crafter will be able to take swords, staffs, maybe a light shield skill to have 'some' offense and defense. Where an adventurer archtype will be able to take some crafting skills, as well. Maybe repair their armor and weapons.
However, the overlapping skills would only be to a certain level. Like for the crafter, the sword, staff and light shield skill they will only be able to go up to 1 or 2 tiers. Where with a full blown Fighter, they can go up the the max tier, as well as having more weapons and armor skills to boot.
I would like to see it necessary to rely on others. Not where you have someone who can 'do it all'. As Ryan has said in the blog:
Just remember our goal: "Maximize meaningful human interaction"
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I agree Onishi, crafting pretty much is a non-factor when out fighting monsters and such. Unless I'm entirely missing something (which may be the case lol) my point was if I spend my monthly skill points on a crafting profession rather than favored enemies and bow talents, and my in game time running a business rather than dungeon delving, my product should be superior to someone hybrids their character and adventures while doing some crafting on the side. To me, the business is the adventure. Being well regarded sociall, having a political presence, and economic strength are what my characters goals are, and he's willing to sacrifice the ability to slay monsters to be the best at what he does.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Very good point, Hobbun. This game is all about relying on others you trust in order to accomplish what no one person could do. I like the idea of some small overlap in skills, so I could pull a Samwise Gamgee and bash someone with my frying pan. It happens to be a master work.
Here's hoping we get what we want, and thanks for the compliment. ^.^
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I agree that crafting should have its own robust skill systems, as adventuring won’t be the only focus of the game. I’m not sure I agree that it needs to be classified as its own archtype, as any time spent training a crafting skill is time not spent training an adventurous archtype skills.
If I want to play the wizard archtype I could only train in the wizard skill tree to ensure that I get the 20 merit badges and the capstone ability ASAP. Or I could choose to devote some of my characters time to training some of the crafting skills, which will ultimately slow down my advancement and achievement of the wizard skills.
Obviously we’re not entirely sure how the skill system will work yet. However, if there was a limit to the number of skills that can be trained at once, then this would help to balance out the time spent in the various skill trees.
For my part I intend on playing an elven wizard who will spend most of his time training in his wizard archtype and will devote some of his type to creating arcane items. While this may slow down his progress as a wizard, it will ultimately pay-off in creating an income stream, and provide a useful resource to others.
I would also assume that in order to create a wand of fireballs, a character needs the right level of skill in magic (I.e. the ability to cast third level spells, and the knowledge of the fireball spell in particular) as well as sufficient knowledge in crafting wands (similar to the craft wand feat from 3.5). Thus requiring devotion to both the wizard and crafting skill trees
~~~~
In relation to the whole fatigue in relation to resting and eating. I would hope that is based on actual game time and not RL time. Otherwise it would be a pain if I rested in game before logging and then because I didn’t play for a few days, I need to spend in game resting and eating all over again.
While I don’t have any real objection to ‘forcing’ players to eat and rest. Not everyone who plays PFO will want to go down to that level of immersion.
Would a fatigue based system add to realism, and force players to interact with those who have skills in food preperation and management/ownership of Inns? Yes.
Does a fatigue system add to the overall enjoyment of the game? I’m not sure the asnwer is yes.
For those of us who enjoy roleplaying characters and enjoy immersion. Then we will want to rest at inns and buy nice food for our characters. For those who’re mainly interested in casual style of play, forcing them to buy food may be offputting. Most players would bat an eyelid if they’re forced to rest their characters. Many may not have the same attitude to being forced to eat food.
I’m a firm believer that any buff/debuff gained from eating food should have much a much shorter duration than magical consumables (potions, spells and wands)
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
For those who’re mainly interested in casual style of play, forcing them to buy food may be offputting. Most players would bat an eyelid if they’re forced to rest their characters. Many may not have the same attitude to being forced to eat food.
I’m a firm believer that any buff/debuff gained from eating food should have much a much shorter duration than magical consumables (potions, spells and wands)...
In another thread, I suggested that weapon maintenance should be a buff, not a debuff, because many/most people will automatically use a buff if they can and it is available. Food and rest should work the same way, as a buff. What the buffs for food and rest should be - maybe a fatigue or morale bar, maybe something to do with vim and vigor (vitality is covered by h.p.). In any case, I think the effect should need to be re-buffed after 8 hours game time, regardless of the richness of the meal.
I think the buffs for food and rest should be different than the healing effects of potions. People should generally not be able to subsist merely on magic. (Yes, there are spells in PF that create food. But they work within a magic system where the caster has a discrete number of spells each day and sacrifices a fraction of his spell load to feed the party.)
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
For those who’re mainly interested in casual style of play, forcing them to buy food may be offputting. Most players would bat an eyelid if they’re forced to rest their characters. Many may not have the same attitude to being forced to eat food.
I’m a firm believer that any buff/debuff gained from eating food should have much a much shorter duration than magical consumables (potions, spells and wands)...
In another thread, I suggested that weapon maintenance should be a buff, not a debuff, because many/most people will automatically use a buff if they can and it is available. Food and rest should work the same way, as a buff. What the buffs for food and rest should be - maybe a fatigue or morale bar, maybe something to do with vim and vigor (vitality is covered by h.p.). In any case, I think the effect should need to be re-buffed after 8 hours game time, regardless of the richness of the meal.
I think the buffs for food and rest should be different than the healing effects of potions. People should generally not be able to subsist merely on magic. (Yes, there are spells in PF that create food. But they work within a magic system where the caster has a discrete number of spells each day and sacrifices a fraction of his spell load to feed the party.)
Food could work well with Nihmon’s idea for universal fatigue (UF). Perhaps UF gradually decreases over time (from walking and other minor actions), as well as with player combat/crafting actions. Eating food and resting could help restore the UF bar. It would also work if you could only rest once every 8 IG hours. Therefore if you’ve rested and you want to further restore your UF bar you would need to eat something.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
While I personally like the idea of needing to maintain character health and well-being, I know many people who are turned off by the idea. If mundane maintenance (eating, drinking, sleeping, equipment care) is included it should be as Ravening has suggested, a buff to reward the action rather than a penalty. Since the npc 'sims' are more or less invisible to the players, it makes sense that the basic needs of the characters are likewise invisible. They should maintain a baseline level of well-being without any interaction required of the player.