I was building a rogue for a friend's campaign and dipping to stack various sources of sneak attack. Vivisectionist sneak attack states that: "At 1st level, a vivisectionist gains the sneak attack ability as a rogue of the same level. If a character already has sneak attack from another class, the levels from the classes that grant sneak attack stack to determine the effective rogue level for the sneak attack’s extra damage dice (so an alchemist 1/rogue 1 has a +1d6 sneak attack like a 2nd-level rogue, an alchemist 2/rogue 1 has a +2d6 sneak attack like a 3rd-level rogue, and so on)."
The wording here seems odd. I can respect the spirit of this, making it so that a rogue doesn't need to worry about making sure that he/she has taken an odd amount of rogue levels before dipping into something else to maximize sneak attack. This also seems like it would prevent sneak attack stacking, by taking only one level of many classes that grant SA at one. The problem that I see here is two-fold. First, some classes that grant sneak attack grant it at a slower rate than 1 SA per two levels. Master Spy, for example, only gets one SA dice every three levels rather than two. Dipping a single level of vivisectionist would allow the rogue to keep SA progression at full, even if the class only grants a single die of SA damage. The other problem that I see (and the build idea that my DM immediately shot down XD) is with how this would combine with the wording of other sources of sneak attack. For example, assassin sneak attack states that "If an assassin gets a sneak attack bonus from another source, the bonuses on damage stack." This would leave me to believe that assassin SA dice would be in addition to the vivisectionist SA dice. The problem here is that assassin also grants SA. So theoretically, a rogue 9, vivisectionist 1, assassin 10 would calculate SA as a 20th level rogue (since all classes grant SA) and as a 10th level assassin, granting 15d6 SA. If the rogue can replace some of the rogue levels with other PrCs that grant SA in the same way as Assassin (Master Spy has the same text but slower progression) it is possible to have level-2 dice of SA damage.
How valid is this interpretation of the RAW. Since assassin explicitly states that its sneak attack stacks with other forms it seems to me that the text of the vivisectionist ability could not over-ride that. Either assassin just became a lot better as a class or I'm spouting crazy none-sense :P Thoughts, please. Also, thanks in advance.
Unfortunately, sneak attack stacking doesn't work quite like that.
Quote: At 1st level, a vivisectionist gains the sneak attack ability as a rogue of the same level. This plus the examples given means a rogue 9/vivisectionist 1 will be treated as a 10th level rogue for purposes of sneak attack.
As for adding assassin levels, those just get added on top of what's there. So in the end, a rogue 9/vivisectionist 1/assassin 10 will end up with an 11d6 sneak attack.
I'd say it's a case of "yeah, you can twist the wording of the RAW around to be interpreted like that, but it's obviously not the RAI".
Sorry, no double-counting of any class levels to determine overall sneak attack level, and since specific trumps general, you're still stuck with the assassin's specific slower progression over the general "just add them all up" rule.
Cyberwolf2xs wrote: I'd say it's a case of "yeah, you can twist the wording of the RAW around to be interpreted like that, but it's obviously not the RAI". Nor would I ever argue that it is RAI. It seems to me that the wording of the ability is intended to do the express opposite of allowing for the creation of characters with large amounts of sneak attack dice. What I really want to know is if there is anything in the rules that expresses that this is not the correct interpretation of the wording of that ability, regardless of intent?
Keep in mind there's a difference between rogue levels stacking to determine sneak attack, and sneak attack dice stacking.
A vivisectionist level counts as a rogue level to determine how much sneak attack you get. All other sources of sneak attack I can think of off hand just grant extra dice. Consider:
Assassin's Sneak Attack wrote: This is exactly like the rogue ability of the same name. The extra damage dealt increases by +1d6 every other level (1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th, and 9th). If an assassin gets a sneak attack bonus from another source, the bonuses on damage stack. Basically, what ends up happening is you have something like +6d6+2d6 damage from sneak attack. 6d6 from rogue/vivisectionist levels, then 2d6 from assassin levels. Obviously, when you roll it there's no distinction, and when qualifying for feats you have 8 dice worth of sneak attack, so it's more effective to just say +8d6 worth of sneak attack. But just because the dice stack, doesn't mean the levels do.
I don't really understand where a distinction can be made. The vivisectionist text is that "If a character already has sneak attack from another class, the levels from the classes that grant sneak attack stack to determine the effective rogue level for the sneak attack’s extra damage dice." The key here is classes, plural. It seems to me that this ability would count up all of the levels of all classes that grant sneak attack and then give the character the sneak attack dice of a rogue of the same level. Is there an argument to be made that because Assassin sneak attack included the line "If an assassin gets a sneak attack bonus from another source, the bonuses on damage stack" the assassin's sneak attack therefore does not count as sneak attack? If there is, I do not see it.
Once again, to clarify, I would never argue that this was RAI or that you should bring this to any game where you respect the group and DM. I am just wondering if there is any rules text that I am missing that either backs my interpretation up or shoots it down. I had thought a had a decent grasp on the rules,and since I saw no other way to interpret this within the confines of RAW I came here for clarification. Thanks.
UnwaveringGrey wrote: I don't really understand where a distinction can be made. The vivisectionist text is that "If a character already has sneak attack from another class, the levels from the classes that grant sneak attack stack to determine the effective rogue level for the sneak attack’s extra damage dice." The key here is classes, plural. It seems to me that this ability would count up all of the levels of all classes that grant sneak attack and then give the character the sneak attack dice of a rogue of the same level. Is there an argument to be made that because Assassin sneak attack included the line "If an assassin gets a sneak attack bonus from another source, the bonuses on damage stack" the assassin's sneak attack therefore does not count as sneak attack? If there is, I do not see it.
Once again, to clarify, I would never argue that this was RAI or that you should bring this to any game where you respect the group and DM. I am just wondering if there is any rules text that I am missing that either backs my interpretation up or shoots it down. I had thought a had a decent grasp on the rules,and since I saw no other way to interpret this within the confines of RAW I came here for clarification. Thanks.
Hmm...
How's this work for you? The levels of all classes stack, but for most classes, you're adding 0. So a Rogue 5/Vivisectionist 3/Assassin 2 would have 5+3+0 rogue levels, because Assassin doesn't say it counts as rogue levels for sneak attack purposes.
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