Goblin Squad Member
|
There has been threads on character creation, many on PvP, what the economy should be like and the differential of PFRPG to PRO. However, there have been no threads on skills. Or if there have, I have missed them.
Granted, we haven’t been told a lot about them, but that’s why I started this thread. I am curious to see how you think they will be handled, or, how you want them to be handled.
The blog establishes that skills are based on an archetype, which are similar to the classes from the Core Rulebook. Each archetype will have it's own skill tree.
In a sense, this sounds similar to EVE. Where even though I have not played it, I have been told that is EVE has thousands of skills that are super specialized. And each of those skills build onto higher tiers that have even more skills.
I am guessing PFO will work similarly from how the blog describes:
improving skills are part of the prerequisite for gaining new abilities. Your character must earn all the things needed to qualify for a new "level," and then you're rewarded with a special bonus. If you want to be a better rogue, you do roguish things and train roguish skills, and at a certain point, you receive a special merit badge recognizing a development milestone, rewarding you with a benefit for your persistence. Like class levels in the tabletop game, there will be 20 of these rewards available for each class type, creating a way to simulate a 20-level progression within our unique system.
To me, it sounds like “levels” (and where you earn a merit badge) could be similar in how the tiers work in EVE.
But another question, and one important to me as I plan to play a crafter, but will crafting have it’s own archetype? ‘Crafter’ is not a class from PFRPG, so it can’t fall under the examples of the archetypes (Fighter, Wizard, Cleric, etc). I’m assuming (hoping) a crafter will have his own tree of skills.
How do you think skills will work? Do you feel they will work differently than what I indicated? How do you hope they will work?
And Ryan, if you wish, please feel free to put forth any comments (or information). :)
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
But another question, and one important to me as I plan to play a crafter, but will crafting have it’s own archetype? ‘Crafter’ is not a class from PFRPG, so it can’t fall under the examples of the archetypes (Fighter, Wizard, Cleric, etc). I’m assuming (hoping) a crafter will have his own tree of skills.
How do you think skills will work? Do you feel they will work differently than what I indicated? How do you hope they will work?
And Ryan, if you wish, please feel free to put forth any comments (or information). :)
In general there hasn't been any anouncement of a specific "archtype" for crafting, but there has been refference to many merit badges, and a very comperable amount of specialization and choices in crafting as to adventuring. Basically the only major difference I can come up with is that someone can switch back and forth between their craft and their adventuring character, without compromising a capstone. It will most likely still take a comperable amount of time to max out a particular breed of crafting as it does to max out say cleric. Only if someone wants to take say 5 years alternating merit badges between say Mace crafting and cleric to max both, they won't void the cleric capstone.
for most of the discussion around the topic of pure crafters (with several posts by Ryan if I recall), take a look at this thread
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Thanks for the link to that thread, Onishi, missed that!
As for your theory, I hope it doesn’t work out that way. I hope GW treats crafting equally as it’s own ‘archtype’ as they would with the others. Meaning, it would still have the consequence of losing your capstone if you go outside of it.
I feel that gives the actual ‘classes’ (Fighter, Cleric, Rogue, etc) an advantage because they can always take crafting and go back to their original skill tree without any deterrant. And it demeans those who do want to focus on crafting, because others can have capstones in both a ‘main’ skill tree and a crafting one.
Yes, that allows a crafter to take a ‘main’ skill tree as well and not suffer the same consequence, but what if you only want to focus on crafting? You should have that advantage of earning the capstone, where the characters who went back and forth should not.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Thanks for the link to that thread, Onishi, missed that!
As for your theory, I hope it doesn’t work out that way. I hope GW treats crafting equally as it’s own ‘archtype’ as they would with the others. Meaning, it would still have the consequence of losing your capstone if you go outside of it.
I feel that gives the actual ‘classes’ (Fighter, Cleric, Rogue, etc) an advantage because they can always take crafting and go back to their original skill tree without any deterrant. And it demeans those who do want to focus on crafting, because others can have capstones in both a ‘main’ skill tree and a crafting one.
Yes, that allows a crafter to take a ‘main’ skill tree as well and not suffer the same consequence, but what if you only want to focus on crafting? You should have that advantage of earning the capstone, where the characters who went back and forth should not.
Since it takes about 2 1/2 years of straight grind to get a capstone with zero dipping into crafting the determent is the more you go in crafting the LONGER it takes to capstone. If you don't go crafting at all you are at the mercy of those that did. If you dip you are X% less efficient than the guy that went balls out. A think forcing players to give up a capstone to do ANY level of farming/trading/crafting is a HUGE lose and because they are already losing economic power.
Or better yet forcing someone to give up a capstone just because they want to chill out and fish every once and awhile is just wasteful to play and I can't see it justified.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I am quite hopeful that Harvesting & Crafting will be in a General Skill Tree, free for everyone to take without interfering with their adventuring Archetype's Capstone.
Even if that is the case, though, I imagine there will be some characters who completely specialize in Harvesting or Crafting (or Processing) in order to really be as good as they can be at it, and completely rely on their Companions to make up for their weaknesses.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I am quite hopeful that Harvesting & Crafting will be in a General Skill Tree, free for everyone to take without interfering with their adventuring Archetype's Capstone.
"A character can train in many other skills outside of their archetype skill tree and still progress towards the capstone ability...."
When I read that from the blog the first thing I assumed was economic skills. Course that is my assumption.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Since it takes about 2 1/2 years of straight grind to get a capstone with zero dipping into crafting the determent is the more you go in crafting the LONGER it takes to capstone. If you don't go crafting at all you are at the mercy of those that did. If you dip you are X% less efficient than the guy that went balls out. A think forcing players to give up a capstone to do ANY level of farming/trading/crafting is a HUGE lose and because they are already losing economic power.
Or better yet forcing someone to give up a capstone just because they want to chill out and fish every once and awhile is just wasteful to play and I can't see it justified.
.
Yes, I can understand that. But you can also apply to that any skill tree. I know as a crafter, I don't want to be a total creampuff and would like to take some defensive and fighting type skills.
What I am hoping, is that all the archtypes will have overlapping skills. Maybe just the lower tiers. Like for example, tier 1 skills for gathering and crafting for the adventurer archtypes. Where someone who is focusing on crafting, maybe would have tier 1 weapon/defensive skills.
I am quite hopeful that Harvesting & Crafting will be in a General Skill Tree, free for everyone to take without interfering with their adventuring Archetype's Capstone.
.
The problem I have with that is why should Harvesting and Crafting skills be a 'free' skill tree for everyone? To me, that really demeans the need for the person who does want to focus on crafting explicitly. Because their entire skill tree can be taken by anyone without any consequence, no loss of capstone for their adventuring archtype.
But as I said above, I do agree it would be nice to have skills outside of your skill tree, without worry of losing your capstone. As a crafter, I would want some as well. But I think a good solution is limiting to a low (or lower) tier(s) for a skill tree outside your main one.
"A character can train in many other skills outside of their archetype skill tree and still progress towards the capstone ability...."
When I read that from the blog the first thing I assumed was economic skills. Course that is my assumption.
That is in the blog? From what I remember reading is that you needed to stay within your archtype (skill tree) the entire way to have a chance of attaining your capstone ability.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
It's free in the same sense that you had hoped that wouldn't interfere with your capstone in taking adventuring your skill tree.
I am just saying I don't think that crafting and harvesting should be an exception like that, where it doesn't affect you interfering with your capstone. I feel crafting and harvesting should be treated the same as other skill trees.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
@Hobbun, I can see some value in that. Personally, I want to do Harvesting on the side, so it's in my personal interests if that doesn't interfere with my Wizard Capstone. I can definitely see the other viewpoint where players who are intent on being a Pure Harvester want a reward that I won't get.
We'll see, I'll probably be just fine either way.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Yes, can certainly understand the want to do some harvesting on the side. Like I said, I would like to work on some offensive/defensive skills as a crafter, I don’t want to be totally dependent on others. Although I realize if I go into any more dangerous areas, I will need protection. However, I find that as part of a working, social environment/economy. Others rely on me for making the items, where I rely on them (for their protection) in gaining the required components.
I really do think (hope) all the archtypes will have skills that overlap to an extent, you just won’t be able to go as high as archtypes who specialize in those types of skills.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Yes, can certainly understand the want to do some harvesting on the side. Like I said, I would like to work on some offensive/defensive skills as a crafter, I don’t want to be totally dependent on others. Although I realize if I go into any more dangerous areas, I will need protection. However, I find that as part of a working, social environment/economy. Others rely on me for making the items, where I rely on them (for their protection) in gaining the required components.
I really do think (hope) all the archtypes will have skills that overlap to an extent, you just won’t be able to go as high as archtypes who specialize in those types of skills.
At least from the hints of capstones, at least from many of ryan's comments. The capstones were likely to be more on the flashy side and not be significantly more powerful, possibly not even slightly more powerful then the normal abilities. The thing with crafting, is an item 1% better than the best, is a whole new price tier. Though I do suppose they could just unlock a new design (can't really do much on the animation considering NPCs do the actual physical task of crafting).
Of course IMO my personal prefference would be for crafting itself to be sort of it's own side category, Mainly I'm expecting crafting to have as much variation as adventuring. IE maybe not archtypes, but if say crafting specialties existed, IE the skill isn't going to be crafting, but still have just as wide of a tree as any archtype.
IE they could have their own capstones,but are as a result from specializing on the crafting. IE you would lose your capstone, by taking a point in macecrafting before maxing out stave crafting, etc...
I mean as much as I do like encouraging specialization, you also have to factor in, harvesting is seperate from crafting as well. So if we are taking crafting capstones, we also need harvesting capstones, and even someone who wants to be a pure crafter, probably would detest the idea of their crafting being ruined if they just want to be able to get some of the materials for themselves sometimes.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
In the PF rules, I think all classes can take skill picks in crafting, though Craft is actually a number of different skills. Likewise, all classes except barbarians can take skill picks in Profession, which is also a bunch of different skills. I'd think if PFO used that as a guide, then the adventuring archetypes would be able to train crafting and gathering skills without penalty.
Having said that, the blog threads suggest that the crafting path will be as complex as the adventuring path. That suggests to me that master crafters will take as long to train as master adventurers. To be both a master miner and a master smith sounds like a long path.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
@Onishi:
I haven’t seen the posts from Ryan on capstones being more on the flashy side than something making you more powerful, but I truly hope that is not the case. Considering the time involved (2 ½ years has been said) and that you need to stay within your skill tree the entire way, I would hope the capstone would be something worthwhile (not just flash).
On actual crafting, I will admit, I do have some concern on what I read in the blog about how it seems that you will only overseeing items being crafted, not doing it yourself. I would actually prefer to be able to craft as well, but then the blog did indicate there would be ‘mini games’ involved. As long as there is some recognition on that ‘you’ are responsible for that/those item(s), then I am ok with not doing the actual crafting.
I really hope that each craft will not have its skill tree separated. Using your example, mace crafting and stave crafting I feel should fall under the same skill tree. I see crafter/entrepreneur as it’s own skill tree. And I mean Crafter as covering ‘all’ things crafted. Weapons, armor, food, items, etc. Granted, being able to do all items well would take a large amount of time, but I feel they should all fall under the same ‘Crafter’ archtype, I.E., same skill tree.
As for harvesting, I could see, and wouldn’t have an issue with it having a general ‘for all’ skill tree (meaning, no consequence in going out of your skill tree to take harvesting). I can see harvesting being worthwhile to anyone, if just for the fact to sell the components on the market.
@Urman:
I think this is another time where the PFRPG rules do not, and should not, transfer to PFO. In PFRPG, crafting and professions ‘are’ viewed as a side activity when adventurers have downtime. In PFO, crafting, and the professions associated in making the items, are, at least from how I read the blogs, being designed to be very much equal to a Fighter, Cleric, Wizard, Rogue, etc. archtype. Crafting and professions are not going to be a ‘side event’. There will be people who will be full time crafters (myself included), and full time professions in general, which is something you would not see in PFRPG.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
In the PF rules, I think all classes can take skill picks in crafting, though Craft is actually a number of different skills. Likewise, all classes except barbarians can take skill picks in Profession, which is also a bunch of different skills. I'd think if PFO used that as a guide, then the adventuring archetypes would be able to train crafting and gathering skills without penalty.
Having said that, the blog threads suggest that the crafting path will be as complex as the adventuring path. That suggests to me that master crafters will take as long to train as master adventurers. To be both a master miner and a master smith sounds like a long path.
Yeah, I think it is safe to assume that when it comes to crafting,the P&P analogies should be very far from existance, in P&P wizard levels are practically required to be a competent crafter. In addition to of course the entire enchantment system requiring you to know spells, and of course fabricate cutting down on the time to create from several days to under a minute.
There was an old joke back in the 3.5 days about how skills worked when you hit epic levels, from memory it was something like.
With epic sleight of hand, you can discretely hide something bigger than yourself, epic swim you can swim up niagra falls, epic diplomacy you can make an enemy you just met, be willing to die in your name.
With epic craft... you can make a plain old non-magical masterwork breastplate, in only 2 weeks.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I think this is another time where the PFRPG rules do not, and should not, transfer to PFO. In PFRPG, crafting and professions ‘are’ viewed as a side activity when adventurers have downtime. In PFO, crafting, and the professions associated in making the items, are, at least from how I read the blogs, being designed to be very much equal to a Fighter, Cleric, Wizard, Rogue, etc. archtype. Crafting and professions are not going to be a ‘side event’....
I think that's a valid argument for having harvesting/processing/crafting being a separate archetype. Just as many people are going to have to accept that dying is part of PFO, many people might have to accept that people who earn capstone badges are the exceptions; most of us will dual class. I'm not wedded to either approach and think that bouncing these ideas around here might help the GW crew think of things they might otherwise miss.
However - since a lot of the work of harvesting and crafting is being done by common folk, there is certainly room for adventuring archetypes to do these tasks, if inefficiently. That is, a Fighter can run a mining camp, but he won't always be able to deal with the log-jams that appear and reduce yield. A skilled Miner will be able to deal with the problems that arise on the mining side and operate the camp much more efficiently, but can't deal with the PvE encounters the camp attracts. Effective settlements and kingdoms must have a mix of both skill sets.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
However - since a lot of the work of harvesting and crafting is being done by common folk, there is certainly room for adventuring archetypes to do these tasks, if inefficiently. That is, a Fighter can run a mining camp, but he won't always be able to deal with the log-jams that appear and reduce yield. A skilled Miner will be able to deal with the problems that arise on the mining side and operate the camp much more efficiently, but can't deal with the PvE encounters the camp attracts. Effective settlements and kingdoms must have a mix of both skill sets.
.
Yes, agree with this completely. This goes back to my hope (theory) in that I believe skill trees will share skills from other archtypes, if only the capability to increase the 'cross skills' to the lower tier(s).
Like in your example, a Fighter running a mining camp, but the skill for it won't go that high in his skill tree, therefore it wouldn't be as high as a Crafter/Processor archtype that can have the skill at a higher level.
But I do agree it is important that effective charter companies/settlements/kingdoms have a balance of all skillsets. Not only does it make them more effective, but is imperative for the long term health of the game.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
@insorrow:
Well, it’s hard to say how mining (or harvesting in general) will work. The more I understand it, the person with the “Mining skill” will direct a team of miners to mine that ore.
But we aren’t even sure if you can have more than one team right now as we don’t know specifics.
But let’s go with your example. Let’s say there are ‘slots’ open enough for three teams at the mining site. Will it be quicker to have more teams, sure. But in my opinion, that is the responsibility of the group (chartered company, settlement, Kingdom or otherwise) to supply those multiple dedicated Crafters to direct those three teams.
I view your first example more on how PFO is supposed to, and most likely will work. Each person will have their role that is crucial to the operation.
So I don’t see a reason for either of your examples why there can't be a dedicated Crafter archtype.
As I said before though, I don’t see a reason why the lower tiered skills can’t be in multiple archtypes. So the Fighter can have that ‘mining skill’, it just won’t be as good as a dedicated Crafter/Processor. As a Crafter, I know I am going to want some offensive/defensive skills, and don’t want to have to go outside of my skill tree for it. But I also realize that those skills will not go that high for me as I am in the ‘Crafter’ archtype (skill tree).
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I am very curious indeed how Harvesting will work.
From what I can tell so far, I'll want to have high Harvesting Skill so that I can set down multiple Harvesting Camp Sites on the same resource, or perhaps on several nearby resources.
What I'm not sure of is whether or not I'll want to leave Harvesting Sites out undefended. Will it be efficient to lose Camp Sites occasionally? Will it be efficient to pick up my far-flung Camp Sites and drop them down nearby when I have a large force ready to defend them, and then pick them up again and set them back up on far-flung resources?
So many questions :)
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Yes, there are a lot of questions in regards to Harvesting, which I am very curious to see answers on as well, Nihimon.
I’m not sure if you can have multiple sites at one resource, but I’m pretty certain I remember reading that your site can, and most likely will, be attacked. And the longer you harvest at a particular site, the better chance you will be attacked.
So if there is a harvesting site where the resources are relatively important, you are going to want it to be protected. For the relatively common harvests, you might be able to get away without protection as the losses would not be that great.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
From Butchers, Bakers and Candlestick Makers:
More than one camp can be erected to target the same resource...
The number of camps you can manage simultaneously will be affected by your skills and merit badges.
That leads me to suspect that, when I organize a Harvesting Event for The Seventh Veil, and we have lots of players available to deal with lots of random encounters and player-bandits, we'll probably want to set up as many Camp Facilities on a given Resource as we can, in order to maximize not only the amount of the resource we collect, but also to maximize the random encounters and give our non-Harvesters something fun to do.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
What I'm not sure of is whether or not I'll want to leave Harvesting Sites out undefended. Will it be efficient to lose Camp Sites occasionally? Will it be efficient to pick up my far-flung Camp Sites and drop them down nearby when I have a large force ready to defend them, and then pick them up again and set them back up on far-flung resources?
My initial guess would be that you set up some of your harvest sites, without a lot of direct control, well inside the settlement's protected areas on lesser resources. That gives you a stream of common resources and a some PvE encounters inside your home area.
You'll use harvest sites with dedicated defenders and with skilled harvester management for the more rare resources and for deposits outside of your home area. You'll want such mines to run as efficiently as possible, to gather as much Resource X as possible while players are on line. You might shut these sites down when your defenders log off - it will be attacked if you don't, and stored resources might be lost.
That's my guess at this time - we'll see how it actually turns out.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
It wouldn't be that hard to retool the Expert NPC class into an Expert PC Archetype within the game. No shame in being an Expert, either, as your focus is crafting, and therefore you're hardly an "adventurer" in that sense of the word. Give the Expert archetype a capstone ability that takes about two and a half years of dedicated crafting to achieve and we're good.