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Ok. So I'm tired of being told I'm trying to "game" the system by wanting to rebuild a character in a way that would so much better fit my "vision" of him and his personality. I'm tired of being told I'm wrong for wanting something I think would be fun and entertaining.
You don't want to allow me to rebuild my character so I can have more fun roleplaying him the way I see him in my mind at his level because that's cheating/hax/whatever.
So I propose an alternative.
Total character reboot at level one. Scratch off all the chronicle sheets on the character save for the one that allows me to make him the special race. No gold, no PA, no items, nothing. Start, literally, back at the beginning. I'll even say I'm not ever allowed to replay those scenarios or apply that GM credit, just as if the character had died and not been raised.
Total loss of 10 scenarios and about 4 months of play with that character. Why? Just so I can make the same character over with one or two minor tweaks so I can have more fun playing him.
Logistically impossible, I realize. Will it ever happen or be allowed? In my dreams. Am I being immature and irrational? Most likely, I'm tired, so sue me. Is this ridiculous and extreme with no real hope of getting anything accomplished? Yes.
Mostly, this is to see whether or not anyone thinks this is an appropriate penalty for making a character I'd like to play more enjoyable for me.
I know, I know. If you wanna play that get into a home game. Well, I could do that and leave PFS, since that's what my schedule allows. But I don't want to. I like the folks I get to game with at PFS, I like the environment, the setting, the way it plays. The character's personality and concept has just done a complete 180 in a direction I can't really attain what I'd like to with him now because of it.
I realize I can't have my cake and enjoy it, too, because life's not fair, tough cookies I have to suffer through my mistakes and miscalculations. I'm just wondering if there's any amenable way for me to get closer to that ideal.
Ugh.
TLDR: I'm being a whiny little puke, ignore me as I shake my fist uselessly at the sky while accomplishing nothing truly productive.
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Jack, I think all of us who have read your posts understand where you're at and at some point or another have had the same feelings about a character.
That being said, Mike has said that there are changes coming in the new revision of the OP guide. I would suggest that you wait for this new version to come out (August isn't that far away) and see if the changes will work for you.
I've come to realize that part of OP is compromising on what I want for my character some times. And I've been where you're at. I have two oracles that are exactly the same thing. The only difference is one was made before I was lucky enough to get an Aasimar boon and the other after.
I remade the character and started over because there aren't rules for rebuilding and the race fit the concept I had for the class better.
While I will never put words in the mouth of Paizo, I will say that I think it's extremely unlikely that they are going to put in reboot rules, the response I think that is going to be prevalent is the one you already have thumbed your nose at and that is to quasi-retire the character as is and rebuilt from scratch with the race that fits your concept.
You're not wrong for being frustrated. I think that you're blowing things up out of proportion just a smidge tho
Venture-Captain, Massachusetts—Central & West
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Jack - that's the coolest rant I've read in a long time. I feel for your pain and suffering and hope you can get another boon to rebuild. What race is it anyway that has you so tied in a knot?
Judging by this previous post, he wants to rebuild his Tiefling. I encourage Jack to just wait it out for now. He may decide he wants to keep playing that character as is at a later date.
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I realize I can't have my cake and enjoy it, too, because life's not fair, tough cookies I have to suffer through my mistakes and miscalculations. I'm just wondering if there's any amenable way for me to get closer to that ideal.
Hey, if it makes you feel better, I don't think you made any mistakes or miscalculations. How would you know that this book would contain new stuff for your character? It's just the way it happened.
But like Thea above, Id just wait until August.
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Jack, I think all of us who have read your posts understand where you're at and at some point or another have had the same feelings about a character.
That being said, Mike has said that there are changes coming in the new revision of the OP guide. I would suggest that you wait for this new version to come out (August isn't that far away) and see if the changes will work for you.
I've come to realize that part of OP is compromising on what I want for my character some times. And I've been where you're at. I have two oracles that are exactly the same thing. The only difference is one was made before I was lucky enough to get an Aasimar boon and the other after.
I remade the character and started over because there aren't rules for rebuilding and the race fit the concept I had for the class better.
While I will never put words in the mouth of Paizo, I will say that I think it's extremely unlikely that they are going to put in reboot rules, the response I think that is going to be prevalent is the one you already have thumbed your nose at and that is to quasi-retire the character as is and rebuilt from scratch with the race that fits your concept.
You're not wrong for being frustrated. I think that you're blowing things up out of proportion just a smidge tho
The problem here is that I can't rebuild my Tiefling unless I manage to get another race boon, and it's already been stated that they are no longer being given out, and the likelihood of these races being actually opened up in August is slim.
Also, even if they are released, I literally can't re-make the same character. I can't give them the same name registered, and while that may not seem important, it is to the character and to me.
I realize I can't have my cake and enjoy it, too, because life's not fair, tough cookies I have to suffer through my mistakes and miscalculations. I'm just wondering if there's any amenable way for me to get closer to that ideal.Hey, if it makes you feel better, I don't think you made any mistakes or miscalculations. How would you know that this book would contain new stuff for your character? It's just the way it happened.
But like Thea above, Id just wait until August.
In August, I believe they are releasing 1st level character rebuilds. Problem. My character is almost 5th level. No rebuild for me.
And I have made mistakes. I didn't wait until this week to make this character, so I am not allowed to use the things available, save for feats, which I can't take if I want him to get the combat capabilities I want him to have.
I get to choose combat ability or fun, sorta-relevant, things I would really, really, enjoy. And in PFS, if you make a "combat" class character and aren't actually effective, you're a detriment to the party and people don't want you at their table.
Jack - that's the coolest rant I've read in a long time. I feel for your pain and suffering and hope you can get another boon to rebuild. What race is it anyway that has you so tied in a knot?Judging by this previous post, he wants to rebuild his Tiefling. I encourage Jack to just wait it out for now. He may decide he wants to keep playing that character as is at a later date.
Mostly, I'm just trying to get an actual response as to whether I should bother holding out hope, or give up, go home, and deal with it. At this point, I realize it's futile. I will never get to remake this character. It makes me angry. I hate it because I love the character's personality and flair, and I can't remake the "Dandy Devil" with the things that would make him more of a show-off-y dandy.
EDIT: As it is, it won't stop me from playing the character, nor will I stop enjoying playing him. I just have to sacrifice part of my fun for combat ability as a Magus, or I become little better than a spectator and a character to be "escorted" in combat situations for my party. Nobody likes that.
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I had a character die 2pa and 2000 gp short of a resurrection. She was a fellow player favorite and after some consideration I reluctantly brought her back, with the back story that the Druids who where her neighbors found her and reincarnated her. Just by chance, she died in her home region, Andoran, near where the Five Kings Mountains and the Varisian forest meet. Her daddy owns a ranch there that sells mostly to the dwarves.
I basically made some adjustments and went with it.
That is my practical response.
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Hmm, I would start a new character. When the APG guide came out, I was out of level for a cool Archetype for my rogue. I would of liked the archetype but applying it after I was in the level range would of been against the rules. So I ended up going a different route with my Rogue.
I would of like the original Archetype, looking at it now that he is at a much higher level, he has enjoyed a very fun existance without it. At that time he was my only character, now I have multiple characters.
So if you aren't in a rush, I would wait to see what changes come out. Start another character or really examine what your character can do without a rebuild, there are many options. It looks like it has something to do with a tiefling boon or perhaps a new option for a tiefling. I would just start playing another character for a while.
I have a lawfull good inquisitor, he started out Chaotic Good. Hard Core Chaotic Good. I would let chaotic evil creatures live, he was so Chaotic. He had proffesion Orator speaking about Chaos. A couple games in a row PC's at the table went back on there word, betrayed my characters trust. Which lead to the death of a couple signifigant Pathfinder's. To the extent even thought Chaotic, my character couldn't stand to see another innocent Pathfinder agent die. Due to the chaotic nature of other pathfinder's betraying there word. He later changed his alignment and diety. My original concept was good, but now that he is well travelled he has learned to fight against Chaos.
Now I can't speak for Mike B, but he does read the forums.
Sometimes a great character concept can envolve from unlikey infleunces. Most of my characters totally evolve from session to session. Just my opinion hope you keep with PFS.
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I sincerely hope I haven't given folks the impression that my self-centered whining and complaining means I plan to pick up my ball and go home if I don't get my way.
I will not stop playing, or enjoying, PFSOP.
I'd figured these horribly whiny threads of mine had simply fallen by the wayside and I'd decided I'd already beaten a dead horse plenty enough.
I know I don't get a rebuild, and several of my friends in PFS have pointed out I'm just being a dumba** and it really doesn't matter. I've also been working pretty constantly over the past several days to re-examine the character, the feats he's taken, and what I can do with him to get to where I want.
As it stands, he's probably going to take several levels of Monk (Archetypes galore!) to get to a very duelist-y sort of character with his spells falling back to self buffs and utility spells rather than mainly as forms of attack, since his spell pen at higher levels is just gonna suck.
He'll be plenty versatile, still be an absolute scream to play, and he should still be (at least relatively) useful in combat.
I just lament the fact that he can't use his tail to sweep his hat off in a big flourishing bow because I didn't wait until these last few weeks to make him (and I'm not going to sacrifice a useful combat feat to take the racial feat that lets me do it). My feat choice is simply relegated to choosing something that won't make him detrimental to the party, rather than me just having fun.
Even if I wait until August, if the rebuild options are 1st level only, it'll do me no good since he's already nearly 5th level. I see no sense in holding off playing him when there's no hope of making the changes to begin with. If I'd been given any sort of hint that I might be able to do it, then by the gods I'd stop playing him immediately after the con, but everything I've read so far leads me to believe I'm just out of luck because I didn't wait. That being the case, well... Bum deal.
I'm done being irate over all this since there's no point in it because nothing is going to change the fact that I made the mistake of not waiting. Serves me right. It'd be really cool if I somehow got the ability to change that racial trait, but I know it won't happen, so I'm just moving on.
Anyways...
TLDR: I'm not giving up PFS, but I am giving up on the argument for changing racial traits since it just ain't happening. I am still a little irritated about it, but I'm a big boy and I'll get over myself.
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Question: before you knew what was in blood of fiends or the ARG did you have fun playing your character for those 5 levels?
There's nothing in that book that's legal for PFS that remotely interests me. There's a reason I never brought it up or complained. I just didn't care.
EDIT: Also, for those who keep suggesting I remake the character, I literally can't. Race boons are no longer being handed out (from everything I've heard), and I only ever got the one.
In addition, I'm against opening up the expanded races for free (IE - I feel they should be "unlocked" or "earned"), so why would I be so selfish to ask to have the Tiefling race opened just for me to make another character of that race?
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Speaking as someone who made a Tengu character whose feat choices relied heavily on Dazzling Display, a feat ability that ended up getting totally nerfed by errata, I feel your pain.
In a perfect world there would be paperwork where a VC or VL can look through the character choices a player has made, realised something has changed along the way (eg an entire book on tiefling rules features or the errata of an ability) and sign off on a player changing one or three feat choices when they have levelled up.
(dodges the rock hurling from people who don't know their VC or VL)
A retraining chronicle sheet that is used in these special circumstances would reduce a lot of stress in picking feats and class abilities.
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Speaking as someone who made a Tengu character whose feat choices relied heavily on Dazzling Display, a feat ability that ended up getting totally nerfed by errata, I feel your pain.
In a perfect world there would be paperwork where a VC or VL can look through the character choices a player has made, realised something has changed along the way (eg an entire book on tiefling rules features or the errata of an ability) and sign off on a player changing one or three feat choices when they have levelled up.
(dodges the rock hurling from people who don't know their VC or VL)
A retraining chronicle sheet that is used in these special circumstances would reduce a lot of stress in picking feats and class abilities.
Retraining would be lovely, but there's no bloody way it's going to happen. Keeping track of such things would be a major pain in the hind-quarters and some of the less "honorable" sorts would abuse this privilege to the point that those of us that just want a one-time rebuild to fix mistakes in choices we'd made in the past.
One troublemaker can ruin it for everyone, and I can guarantee this would happen at least once, somewhere. Therefore, this option is likely never going to be available to us because of the potential for abuse and people trying to game the system.
Besides, it's already been stated that creating new chronicle sheets takes more time and effort than Paizo can afford for things that aren't already in the works. They're busy people, and just because a small handful of us would like to "fix" our characters, our wants don't outweigh the needs of the rest of PFSOP on the whole.
I mean, it's like when we're kids and all we want is that candy bar, and no matter how much we whine and throw a tantrum, our parents won't let us have it because it's unhealthy and would spoil our appetite.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Speaking as someone who made a Tengu character whose feat choices relied heavily on Dazzling Display, a feat ability that ended up getting totally nerfed by errata, I feel your pain.
How is this even possible? The changes to Dazzling Display happened way before the tengu were offered as a boon race. Unless there has been another change to it?
I'm not a huge fan of rebuild/ retraining, but would probably give it a thumbs up if there were some serious limits to it. Maybe a PA cost: 6PA to retrain a single feat/ class feature and 12PA for something bigger like a racial trait.
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Speaking as someone who made a Tengu character whose feat choices relied heavily on Dazzling Display, a feat ability that ended up getting totally nerfed by errata, I feel your pain.How is this even possible? The changes to Dazzling Display happened way before the tengu were offered as a boon race. Unless there has been another change to it?
I'm not a huge fan of rebuild/ retraining, but would probably give it a thumbs up if there were some serious limits to it. Maybe a PA cost: 6PA to retrain a single feat/ class feature and 12PA for something bigger like a racial trait.
I really don't see why a racial trait, which at best is about equivalent to a feat (if not just a bonus feat), should be twice the cost of a regular feat. I'd say swap the costs around on that one, if there's a call for making it cost ya.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I really don't see why a racial trait, which at best is about equivalent to a feat (if not just a bonus feat), should be twice the cost of a regular feat. I'd say swap the costs around on that one, if there's a call for making it cost ya.
*shrug*
Make them both worth 12PA then. Whatever it is, I would want it to be something a player really thinks hard about before doing. Changing a racial trait should be a lot tougher than gaining a beach house or getting a porter.
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I really don't see why a racial trait, which at best is about equivalent to a feat (if not just a bonus feat), should be twice the cost of a regular feat. I'd say swap the costs around on that one, if there's a call for making it cost ya.*shrug*
Make them both worth 12PA then. Whatever it is, I would want it to be something a player really thinks hard about before doing. Changing a racial trait should be a lot tougher than gaining a beach house or getting a porter.
I don't have a problem with it being expensive, though if it gets much higher than a raise dead, I think that's getting to be a bit ridiculous.
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Venture-Captain, Arizona—Tucson
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I feel for you guys. Over the years, I've had several characters that were perfect fits for material released after I built them. One of my LG characters was specifically built to match the flavor text of a feat that was subsequently disallowed, then brought back for characters from the Bright Desert (I had described him as hailing from that region, but no benefits were allowed when I built him).
The problem with allowing broad rebuilds is that the ones who benefit the most from such opportunities are the munchkinesque powergamer types, the sort of folks who obsessively pore over new books in hope of finding an overpowered feat, badly-phrased archetype, or ill-considered combination of powers.
Lacking the desire to powergame scenarios into oblivion, the average gamer won't use his rebuild opportunities so ferociously. This results in a wider gap between optimized and average characters. As a scenario author, such variation in power levels frustrates me: I'll get feedback that a fight is both "brutally deadly" and a "cakewalk".
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Lacking the desire to powergame scenarios into oblivion, the average gamer won't use his rebuild opportunities so ferociously. This results in a wider gap between optimized and average characters. As a scenario author, such variation in power levels frustrates me: I'll get feedback that a fight is both "brutally deadly" and a "cakewalk".
That feedback really doesn't rely as much as I think you think it does on optimization. A lot of it depends on two other factors:
1) Dice rolls. On the bad days, when the GM's dice are hot, and the players' dice are not, it can turn a pebble into a mountain. I had this one just the other day, as I watched my dice, as the GM, seldom roll under a 15, while the players, collectively, seldom rolled over a 10. It just gets ugly.2) GM preparation. You can tell, before it even goes that way, that things are going to be bad when the GM knows, by heart, every capability of every one of his NPCs, while the players are struggling to remember what Protection from Evil does, or even what their to hit bonus is. I've seen this one, too.
From either or both of the above, I have seen or heard of combats that are totally different for different tables.
As an example, First Steps, Part 1: In Service to Lore, locally, I have not seen any deaths from the halfling barbarian. Yet, on these boards, there is actually a thread about that same encounter generating TPKs. For some, it is a blip, for others a kaboom.
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I have a barbarian/oracle of battle who would be much happier with the urban barbarian archetype. He's one game away from his first Rage Prophet level. Paizo keeps putting new options out and as long as they keep doing so, there are going to be things which people would have chosen if they were available at the time.