I've heard tales of people who live off of government programs, but like some kind of flea-ridden unicorn, I've never actually met one. I've asked people who insist that they know a 'career mooch' how these individuals manage to bypass government aid limits, but all I get is an "I don't know."
So enlighten me. If you know one of these ill-favored unicorns, how exactly does one make a life-long career of 'mooching' from one's government? Presumably lying or exaggeration is involved, or maybe there's a loophole in the law? In any case, what exactly does one have to do or say or be?
If your knowledge is of a unicorn living outside of the U.S., please mention so in your post. I'm curious whether government aid is as big a to-do in other nations as it is here.
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I'll be taking notes so I can live off the system for free. ;-)
Here's the setup:
you have a "wife," but whatever you do, do not get actually married.
You get the AFDC that way, you get rent comped;......all sortsa stuff.
Then, you work (on and off maybe).
You're not being a total flea bitten unicorn, but you get the government to subsidize your breeding program that way. And you get more disposable income than somebody making whatever you make plus what that sap is paying to subsidize your kids.
I knew a lot of people who did this kinda thing. I lived out in the boonies; lotsa rakish types. I didn't pay it too much attention because from looking at these people in action, working the system is actually kinda like a job in and of itsself, and not a really......noble pursuit from my standpoint.
They used to get food stamps. Take the kids down to the lil champ to buy bazooka bubblegum with a food stamp dollar, get US money in change, and get beer $ that way, because you can't buy alcohol with foodstamps.
Now you get food stamps on a card, so you have to buy food product and sell it at a reduced rate for beer $.
There's all sorts of little scams like that.
I'm not saying everybody accepting government assistance is a mooch, but I had one neighbor with a "wife" girlfriend pulling the afdc money in; he had 20 acres of land, free and clear; his dad was a multimillionare and all of the kids were fighting over the inheritance with the accountants and lawyers;.....he had a (somewhat tiny, but thousands of dollars is sorta nice once a year) trust fund and a girlfriend with kids on the government dole. If you paid taxes, you got to feed his kids for him and pay their medical, so he'd have money for dope.
If all this is unbelievable to you, I'm fascinated by your wide eyed innocence frankly. And, can I also have some money too? I'm hungry.
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I've.....I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Around here, there's a hassidic community where its common for one person to own a business and hire his entire family off the books, so their wives, brothers, and their wives all show up at the welfare office in BMW's.
There are teachers who get let go from active teaching positions at schools in the Los Angeles School District for being crummy teachers, and still draw a salary even though they are doing nothing. I say this as a pro-union liberal dude..there are loopholes that some folks exploit, to be sure.
then there's something called "crazy money" or SSI.
it's not like you're going to get a yacht, but.......well, let's just say I know a few of THOSE flea infested unicorns.
I know a few that get crazy money and do this and that, work under the table doing stuff, so they use the money as supplemental income. Kinda reverse taxes I guess.
Most of this crap really isn't worth it, best I can tell.
I don't really want to get into it; it gets kinda dross when a gang of a certain type shows up around here and starts grilling a guy.
I've heard tales of people who live off of government programs, but like some kind of flea-ridden unicorn, I've never actually met one. I've asked people who insist that they know a 'career mooch' how these individuals manage to bypass government aid limits, but all I get is an "I don't know."
So enlighten me. If you know one of these ill-favored unicorns, how exactly does one make a life-long career of 'mooching' from one's government? Presumably lying or exaggeration is involved, or maybe there's a loophole in the law? In any case, what exactly does one have to do or say or be?
If your knowledge is of a unicorn living outside of the U.S., please mention so in your post. I'm curious whether government aid is as big a to-do in other nations as it is here.
"Flea-ridden unicorn."
I'm saving that for when I write my novel! :P
Around here, there's a hassidic community where its common for one person to own a business and hire his entire family off the books, so their wives, brothers, and their wives all show up at the welfare office in BMW's.
I knew a guy that explained to me that coming over from overseas, if you start a business, it makes it easier for them to get their green cards renewed, so they have this kinda shoddy....almost restaurant with few to no customers, 25 family members "working" there, not doing much at the actual restaurant per se. Doing other stuff mainly.
The dude wasn't a Teapartyer telling me "them dang furriners....lissen wut they do....." the dude was doing this actual thing.He was in college though; parents had the restaurant. Damn but he was smart though. He belonged there in that college way more than I did.
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Take any system.
There's ways to exploit it.
Some people are essentially minmaxers of the Government Dole Roleplaying Game.
Agreed. The best we can do with any system is to minimize abusability and maximize societal benefits.
In a way, designing a system is minmaxing of a different stripe. :)
I personally know a guy who lives with his girlfriend but they won't get married in order to keep him off the books. She has low income housing (and he pays half the rent, he makes around 55G+ per year) but they wouldn't qualify if that were known. They get an enormous discount they don't deserve.
That is a commonly repeated occurance (sp?).
That doesn't even begin to touch all the other benefits in her name they would lose...
I also personally know some who keep the daddies out of the picture (as far as officially on the books) so they can collect as much as possible from the government: food stamps, EITC, etc.
The list goes on and on.
I know a lot of people who have abused the systems. Heck I have. Heck I don't think I know anyone who hasn't at one point or another. I know and am aware of people who have lived entirely off the "dole" for some portion of time, but this includes people with disability.
What I don't know, have known, or even heard tell of other than as urban legend status is people who live particularly well off JUST the dole. The people who live well, and are on the dole (and thus gaming the system) only get gov't money as a supplement.
I've seen it all. Usually folks will have the Canadian equivalent of welfaire check comming in once a month, AND work "off-the-books" doing jobs like painting, renovation, and other manual labor. Add all of that UNTAXED "clear-in-your-pocket" revenue plus the welfare boost and you get quite a salary. More than what I make anyway.
And then you have entire families that live exclusively on welfare. A tradition passed down from generation to generation... Have lots-o-kids at a very young age and live off the tribe's multiple-checks. Mind you, all these folks are perfectly capable of working, but they just don't want to. (Why would they, right?)
Without being to jugemental, these are usually the folks that invade the Walmarts on the first of every month (when the checks come in). It's a big day for corner stores (beer sales) and taxi companies. We call it in french "La Journée des Riches"... (translation: "Rich People Day").
They spend their money on everything and anything, and by the 3rd of the month (yes the 3rd), they're flat broke again and go back to just sitting on the porch for another 27 days. lol
Disgusting.
Ultradan
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I've heard tales of people who live off of government programs, but like some kind of flea-ridden unicorn, I've never actually met one. I've asked people who insist that they know a 'career mooch' how these individuals manage to bypass government aid limits, but all I get is an "I don't know."
So enlighten me. If you know one of these ill-favored unicorns, how exactly does one make a life-long career of 'mooching' from one's government? Presumably lying or exaggeration is involved, or maybe there's a loophole in the law? In any case, what exactly does one have to do or say or be?
If your knowledge is of a unicorn living outside of the U.S., please mention so in your post. I'm curious whether government aid is as big a to-do in other nations as it is here.
Not a myth, a very real fact of life.
I've personally known dozens of people who do just this. In the U.S.
1. Be a single mother - claim no knowledge of dads location, even if he still lives with you. Have a new child every 2 - 3 years to keep maximum benifits.
2. Have a doctor declare a mental disability. Not difficult, especially in areas with large numbers of very low income people. Free health clinics are very good for this. This stacks with benefits from having children.
3. Drugs: I'm not talking weed/crack/heroine, I'm talking about reselling pills. Free health clinics hand out pain meds as a solution to nearly all chronic health problems. They also don't talk amongst themselves.
4. Bonus points if the baby daddy you are claiming no known location/income is working under the table while living with you.
I knew a bunch of them from Felanitx, in the Spanish island of Mallorca. Basically, they lived off as officially unemployed, which granted them State-sponsored income, which was more than enough to live comfortably, while at the same time some of them also kept part-time jobs to get even more income.
Mind you, we're talking about guys in their mid-30s who had degrees in stuff like chemical engineering and law, so it's not like they couldn't get actual jobs (this was in 2006, though. Not sure how they are doing with the crisis now); one of them actually worked for an IT company and managed to get himself fired just so he wouldn't have to work every day and still get money. They were simply lazy and wanted to live off other's people's taxes.
I'm all for a properly subsidiary State when necessary, but that kind of people get no sympathy from me.
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It happens, and it completely sucks because it gives people who legitimately do need the help and honestly cannot despite trying find employment to support themselves a bad name.
It's really hard to support the idea of tax-funded government assistance when you repeatedly have to explain to the guy tapping on his iPhone that no, sir, your stamps do not pay for alcohol.
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They used to get food stamps. Take the kids down to the lil champ to buy bazooka bubblegum with a food stamp dollar, get US money in change, and get beer $ that way, because you can't buy alcohol with foodstamps.
Now you get food stamps on a card, so you have to buy food product and sell it at a reduced rate for beer $.
You can resell unopened baby formula for 50% of the list price without even blinking.
Another popular option is to visit the grocery store with the person your reselling to and purchase their groceries. You can usually manage better than a 50% resale on this option but it is harder to arrange.
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They used to get food stamps. Take the kids down to the lil champ to buy bazooka bubblegum with a food stamp dollar, get US money in change, and get beer $ that way, because you can't buy alcohol with foodstamps.
Now you get food stamps on a card, so you have to buy food product and sell it at a reduced rate for beer $.
You can resell unopened baby formula for 50% of the list price without even blinking.
Another popular option is to visit the grocery store with the person your reselling to and purchase their groceries. You can usually manage better than a 50% resale on this option but it is harder to arrange.
Is there a system that's completely ungameable? No there isn't. I will tell you that even on the poor streets of Paterson, I've never heard of that particular example. Beliefs have a way of spawning their own tales which get passed around until they evolve as articles of faith. I will say that if you have a determined enough belief, any belief, you'll find "facts" to support it. These tales get support because culturally, America is extremely hostile to it's poor.
I will say that the more extreme stories I hear from a person without hard corroboration, the less credence I give to each.
I'm done with this thread. There is enough Class Warfare in this country that it does not need my contribution to it in this venue.
These facts get support because they are true. It is not this bullshit you are trying to fly that we are hostile to the poor. I grew up poor with poor friends and spent a good chunk of my life working in an environment containing a lot of poor people and spending a whole lot of time with them.
People have been giving corroboration of what they personally see and experience. That is solid corroboration. Try reading.
So most of these scams involve using children to get food stamp cards, and having another source of income on the side. Yet another reason, IMO, that child-bearing should be treated as a privilege rather than a right. Especially if a parent is claiming mental illness. I know, big can of worms...
It happens, and it completely sucks because it gives people who legitimately do need the help and honestly cannot despite trying find employment to support themselves a bad name.
It's really hard to support the idea of tax-funded government assistance when you repeatedly have to explain to the guy tapping on his iPhone that no, sir, your stamps do not pay for alcohol.
Agreed. I myself have taken unemployment checks, and I live in an area where a lot of people do too, when they can. Especially during the past years of recession. But there's also a lot of hostility toward government aid, both from people I know and people on tv.
Without being to jugemental, these are usually the folks that invade the Walmarts on the first of every month (when the checks come in). It's a big day for corner stores (beer sales) and taxi companies. We call it in french "La Journée des Riches"... (translation: "Rich People Day").
Ugh, Walmart. Parents who bring their screaming children to Walmart. *shudder* Together, these two things create a visceral diorama of the worst products of both capitalism and socialism.
I also currently live next door to a woman with a law degree that has not worked in 15 years.
She files a fresh civil lawsuite every year or two.
How do law suits result in government aid?
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A friend of mine moved in with his girlfriend. She was living of welfare, he had a good job. However, he kept his appartment and still payed the rent. This way, his girlfriend could keep her welfare, and they both kept the subsidy for renting. (This is in the Netherlands, by the way.)
He moved back when he dumped her.
My second cousin and her husband have never been off the dole since I was a child. I'm sure they worked at least a day. But never did they get off social assistance since I was a kid until now. Neither are disabled, but neither are inclined to do much else either.
Seems like this is not a unicorn but more common practice than we would all like.
I myself know a woman who is living off the state in Massachusetts, US (not uncommon) there are alot of benefits out there for people and they take advanatage of them to the point where they get to a certain comfortable level and continue to live that way because she makes a better living off the state than if she got a job which at this point she would have a very difficult time finding one and is supporting 5 or 6 children so chances are she will not get out of the loop she is in.
But she has not ever worked. Through her I have heard of numerous others doing the same thing. Young girls get pregnant and they need to support their young child and the State offer help. This is not an Urban Myth, I have seen more young girls getting pregnant than when I was younger now I have not looked at stats to back this up but maybe someone else has ... has teen pregnancy gone up? I thought I had heard that but could be mistaken.
Actually, teen pregnancy is a at an all-time low .
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It's greatly exaggerated by anti-assistance, anti-government, pro laissez-faire advocates.
Yes, there are charlatans who find ways to abuse the system, but they are a tiny minority compared to the households who are struggling to survive.
I have met people who live their entire lives on government assistance but only due to a serious disability afflicted since birth or childhood.
All the rhetoric is disguising the fact that the system is broken. Welfare was originally invented by conservatives to stop people from working--they were terrified of the prospect of women leaving the home and entering the workplace. We have lived with that vestiges of that legacy ever since. The only way to fix this system is to tie the living assistance to education and job training assistance to get people employable and productive again.
Most welfare recipients are still single mothers, divorced or abandoned by the children's father.
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I have a whole family full of deadbeats and most of them have never worked ever. They even have smartphones! Then they wonder why I don't consort with them!
Heres a scam for you, I had an uncle that kept taking in foster kids and was getting hefty checks from the state so he didn't have to work. Sadly he didn't watch those kids either since almost all of them got in trouble with the law.
I think we should bring back the orphanage. If you can't take care of your children they should be taken away and the parent should pay the state child support! You would save alot of money since you wouldn't support the mother. She would be forced to pay for her kid. I bet you wouldn't see one kid that didn't know who their daddy was then!
The system is quite gameable. Every system is. Thanks said, not everyone is playing the game the same way. Its important to make crucial distinctions between someone who cant work, someone who wont work, and someone who stands to lose everything if they attempt to get a job. And I must stress, as I often do in these situations, that this practice varies widely by state,city, and even county.
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I will say that the more extreme stories I hear from a person without hard corroboration, the less credence I give to each.
I am not guessing.
I am not going by third hand stories
I am relating actions I have directly witnessed a great many times. It has taken me years of hard work to dig myself out of this environment. I am still not entirely free of it, but I, at least, have a way out.
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The question is, which is more important: minimizing the number of people gaming the system, or maximizing the number of legitimate recipients? In real life you can't do both.
If maximizing legitimate recipients is the goal, then there will consequently be a larger number of non-legitimate scammers as well. That leaves a bad taste in a lot of people's mouths, as we've seen in this thread.
If minimizing abuse is your deal, of course it's attractive to just cut all welfare entirely. That'll sure stop the scamming! But it also leaves a bad taste in a lot of people's mouths: Hungry? Too bad, starve. Laid off? Find another job before you starve. If you can't, too bad, starve.
Or you could declare some "break point" at which you call it good enough. For example, if the number of legitimate recipients is greater than the number of scammers. Or twice as large. Or whatever.
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The question is, which is more important: minimizing the number of people gaming the system, or maximizing the number of legitimate recipients? In real life you can't do both.
If maximizing legitimate recipients is the goal, then there will consequently be a larger number of non-legitimate scammers as well. That leaves a bad taste in a lot of people's mouths, as we've seen in this thread.
If minimizing abuse is your deal, of course it's attractive to just cut all welfare entirely. That'll sure stop the scamming! But it also leaves a bad taste in a lot of people's mouths: Hungry? Too bad, starve. Laid off? Find another job before you starve. If you can't, too bad, starve.
Or you could declare some "break point" at which you call it good enough. For example, if the number of legitimate recipients is greater than the number of scammers. Or twice as large. Or whatever.
The point at which you spend more money trying to stop the scammers than you save by stopping them?
Amen to that. It boggles my mind that so-called fiscal conservatives would spend so much drug testing welfare receipients in Florida, to save so little. At first I just chalked it up to more Fl craziness, but now other states are trying to do the same.
They used to get food stamps. Take the kids down to the lil champ to buy bazooka bubblegum with a food stamp dollar, get US money in change, and get beer $ that way, because you can't buy alcohol with foodstamps.
Now you get food stamps on a card, so you have to buy food product and sell it at a reduced rate for beer $.
You can resell unopened baby formula for 50% of the list price without even blinking.
Another popular option is to visit the grocery store with the person your reselling to and purchase their groceries. You can usually manage better than a 50% resale on this option but it is harder to arrange.
Is there a system that's completely ungameable? No there isn't. I will tell you that even on the poor streets of Paterson, I've never heard of that particular example. Beliefs have a way of spawning their own tales which get passed around until they evolve as articles of faith. I will say that if you have a determined enough belief, any belief, you'll find "facts" to support it. These tales get support because culturally, America is extremely hostile to it's poor.
I will say that the more extreme stories I hear from a person without hard corroboration, the less credence I give to each.
I'm done with this thread. There is enough Class Warfare in this country that it does not need my contribution to it in this venue.
I'm telling you what I seen with my own two eyes.
Pfft and one of the guys I saw gaming the system was getting a trust fund for thousands of dollars once a year. I seen this with my own two eyes. I'm frankly amazed that this needs some form of "scientific documentation" because it's so damn blatant.
Do we need scientific documentation to prove you can hire cheap help outside of Lowe's most mornings? Should I go down there with a camera, or you gonna take my word for it? Scientific documentation.......pffft!
I'm not here to besmirch poor people who need help. I'm all for helpiing people who need help.
The people who don't actually need help need to not steal money from people who actually need help. And people need to help themselves too.
I also worked with one lady whose stupid ass husband had to go, left her jobless with a son, she went on welfare for 3 months, and said, "if you guys can help me to get some kind of job, I promise you I'll never come here again. This is sorry assed."
I'm sorry, I don't have it on tape recording or anything. I don't have any of her receipts or any of that stuff. I kinda think it happened though. It wasn't like she was telling me she met extra terrestrials.
What cracks me up the most,.....all the crazy ass shit I seen living out there in the boondocks, and welfare fraud is unbelievable.....
Tears in the rain, baybee.....tears in the rain.
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All the rhetoric is disguising the fact that the system is broken. Welfare was originally invented by conservatives to stop people from working--they were terrified of the prospect of women leaving the home and entering the workplace.Do you have a source for this? I have never heard this claimed before.
I'd love to see a source too.
I have a whole family full of deadbeats and most of them have never worked ever. They even have smartphones! Then they wonder why I don't consort with them!
Heres a scam for you, I had an uncle that kept taking in foster kids and was getting hefty checks from the state so he didn't have to work. Sadly he didn't watch those kids either since almost all of them got in trouble with the law.
I think we should bring back the orphanage. If you can't take care of your children they should be taken away and the parent should pay the state child support! You would save alot of money since you wouldn't support the mother. She would be forced to pay for her kid. I bet you wouldn't see one kid that didn't know who their daddy was then!
I think that's swinging the pendulum too far in the other direction.
"If you can't take care of your kids, drop them off at the orphanage" has a certain logic, although I've gotten the sense that orphanages are only just better than living in the gutter. I'd love to have a better way of supporting accidental single mothers that doesn't incentivize women to pop out kids just for the food stamps -- in fact I'd much rather legalize prostitution. At least prostitutes provide a service without creating an additional burden on society.
But telling desperate mothers "Sorry you lost your job, and sorry your highest credential is a high school diploma, and sorry your husband ran out/died, but we're taking your child. Oh, and we'll be expecting your monthly child support contribution" is just daft. It wouldn't result in less kids without daddies -- it'd just result in more kids in the gutter, or dead.
And despite all the abuse described here, there are actually many people who use the various forms of assistance in the way it's really meant to be used: A safety net to keep you from crashing all the way to the bottom and to give you a chance to get back on your feet again.
Is someone needs some help to get over a rough spot, a job loss, a medical problem, a disappeared spouse, whatever, and then maybe a couple years later starts doing better and can make it or even prosper on their own, shouldn't we try to make that easier?Sure, there's abuse of the system and minimizing that is a worthy goal, but not at the expense of making it not work for those do need help. It's already hard enough for those who legitimately need help to get it. There are a lot of hoops to jump through and if you're not familiar with the system you can fall through the cracks.
The bolded portion, is it just made up or do you have something specific in mind?