Goblin Squad Member
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So it just occurred to me when I was at my gaming group and I was looking through the pathfinder books that I have forgotten about Golems and the creation of one.
My idea is to be able to create Golems of different power and types through the building of skills and it being available as a Guard NPC or whathaveyou
The Pros to this idea would be:
■ Body Guards for any reason such as Cities or Caravans
■ Working hard to create something that is yours
■ Necromancer's flesh golem
The Process Cons (I don't mean bad) would be:
■ The hard work to make one
■ Would need to be a high enough level to create
■ The skill points to put in the creation
So thoughts? Opinions? your Cons and Pros?
I don't remember seeing a Necromancer character class in the core classes from the Pathfinder RPG core rulebook that they said would be in the MMO from the core rulebook.Sounds more like Age of Conan MMO to me with a nercomancer class and a minions following them around like thier own personal army. You sure we talking about the same game?
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Goblin Squad Member
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True, necromancy is not a class any more than golem making is...but clerics, wizards, and sorcerers can gain access to spells in the Pathfinder system/Golarion world which would be considered necromancy. That is what I was referring to...how and why they use the spells or what they call themselves is entirely up to them.
And no, AoC type necromancers is exactly what I was hoping to limit by requiring them to be "pre-crafted" and given an expensive upkeep cost. Undead should not just be summon-able at whim...
Okay i see what you mean like a cleric school or magic field of study as per the books. I agree it would be nice to see some expansion on various schools or domains. To be able to expand research development and learn and craft in those vocations (golems, potions, undead, spell research etc.).
Maybe just limit the number of minions that single character can control - one after acquiring the basic minion-creation ability, with additional minions under control after gaining specialized skill. Some spells summoning a small group of temporary minions could count as single minion for this purpose.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Maybe this is just me, but I hope some brave player will build up his character to the point where he can unveil a mad necromancer to the world of PFO, seated atop a rotten throne in his personal castle of the undead. I hope (s)he will throw down the gauntlet, and offer a contract for a band of daring adventurers to traverse their castle, defeat their minions, and face them in epic battle.
That's right, you heard me. I just said I hope a player hires a team to wreck their own stuff and try and kill them. It's not that I expect this to happen; it's just that it would be so legendary, in the true fantasy-saga sense of the word.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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True, necromancy is not a class any more than golem making is...but clerics, wizards, and sorcerers can gain access to spells in the Pathfinder system/Golarion world which would be considered necromancy. That is what I was referring to...how and why they use the spells or what they call themselves is entirely up to them.
And no, AoC type necromancers is exactly what I was hoping to limit by requiring them to be "pre-crafted" and given an expensive upkeep cost. Undead should not just be summon-able at whim...
A question: the real masters of spamming summoned minions in PFRPG are conjurers and summoners, with druids and clerics a close second tier, not necromancers. While I certainly would hate to see a character class which just pops out a bunch of minions and wanders around with a small army of meatbags (ala AoC), the PFRPG does have characters whose abilities include bringing in a ton of short-term help, and many of those creatures are intelligent beings.
How would you address that?
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Goblin Squad Member
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A question: the real masters of spamming summoned minions in PFRPG are conjurers and summoners, with druids and clerics a close second tier, not necromancers. While I certainly would hate to see a character class which just pops out a bunch of minions and wanders around with a small army of meatbags (ala AoC), the PFRPG does have characters whose abilities include bringing in a ton of short-term help, and many of those creatures are intelligent beings.
How would you address that?
Ah, good call...as a clarifier, I was specifically addressing MMOs and the expectation I think many will have that they can summon undead at whim like most "necromancers" in other popular MMOs. Druids with pets should be similar. Instead of "pre-crafting" their pet (like I think necromancers and golem-crafters should do), they should have to "train" their pet which takes similar time and resources for similar power return.
As for those who really are summoning things from other planes, no matter the class or what they summon...I was a fan of the very unpopular idea that magic should be expensive and take time to recover (as discussed here in the forums). Most people who want to be mages expect to be able to continually spam uber fireballs, I assume because they can in other MMOs (at least that is how I have interpreted the responses when the discussion goes there). Having to wait a long time for magic recovery makes the class un-viable to them. I disagree, it just means they need to hold their abilities (utility and combat) until they are really needed, and design their characters to have other uses. Most mages were also a fountain of useful information due to their high IQ. Summoners would fit into this category, you might be able to summon some awesome warrior, but then you should be magically drained for a long time...whatever you summoned becomes your abilities on the battlefield, balanced by the fact that you are stuck smacking people with your quarterstaff for the next hour or so.
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Goblin Squad Member
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| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
A question: the real masters of spamming summoned minions in PFRPG are conjurers and summoners, with druids and clerics a close second tier, not necromancers. While I certainly would hate to see a character class which just pops out a bunch of minions and wanders around with a small army of meatbags (ala AoC), the PFRPG does have characters whose abilities include bringing in a ton of short-term help, and many of those creatures are intelligent beings.How would you address that?
Well per P&P, necromancers have one huge advantage or difference over summonings of any kind. Creating undead takes far more time and money then any summoner, but they don't expire until killed, IE a necromancer can lock himself in a cave with hundreds of corpses for a year, and come out with an army.
Now of course ballancing that within PFO is a whole different issue. Mainly I have no problem with it, provided that there is both a high cost of creation, and a notable upkeep cost, to ensure that it isn't done in excess.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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A question: the real masters of spamming summoned minions in PFRPG are conjurers and summoners, with druids and clerics a close second tier, not necromancers. While I certainly would hate to see a character class which just pops out a bunch of minions and wanders around with a small army of meatbags (ala AoC), the PFRPG does have characters whose abilities include bringing in a ton of short-term help, and many of those creatures are intelligent beings.How would you address that?
Well per P&P, necromancers have one huge advantage or difference over summonings of any kind. Creating undead takes far more time and money then any summoner, but they don't expire until killed, IE a necromancer can lock himself in a cave with hundreds of corpses for a year, and come out with an army.
Now of course ballancing that within PFO is a whole different issue. Mainly I have no problem with it, provided that there is both a high cost of creation, and a notable upkeep cost, to ensure that it isn't done in excess.
Well, of course, given that the casting time for Create Undead is an hour. That much is obvious. PFRPG balances Summon Monster and Summon Nature's Ally by an opportunity cost; on any given round, the effects of a spell of the same level as the Summon Monster/Nature's Ally spell whose slot it takes would be more effective. The Summon spells deliver more total bang but discount it over time - and in the case of intelligent summoned monsters, do it with a being who is versatile. A summoned Trumpet Archon could, for example, heal a party and raise a dead member rather than be used to fight a battle.
Also, in PFRPG, there are rather stringent limits on how many undead a necromancer can control; rules as written, he won't have an army. A twelfth level caster would have just under fifty skeletons and twelve HD of greater undead he could command. There are feats and such that could boost this, but even if those double the size of the group, that's hardly an army. By eighth level, fifty skeletons are more of a nuisance than a genuine threat.
However, Forencith wrote he wanted to avoid having casters walking around with a horde of pets accompanying them. Golems/undead with high upkeep takes care of one problem, but the real king of rapid-fire swarms of summoned mooks are Conjurers, with Clerics, Druids, Summoners, and Sorcerers all able to do the same. Forencith's suggestion was using slowed magic recharge to prevent casters from spamming those spells. I would suggest another idea to consider is having the Summon spell "tie up" magical power, much as do sustained spells in Dragon Age. I'm sure folks can suggest other ideas.
Goblinworks Founder
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I would like to see the rules for crafting golems, raising undead, etc. be as close as possible to what is in the PFRPG, given the needs of an MMO, of course. The amount of time and money it takes to create golems, for instance, means that the player is not spending those resources on others things.
So if some wizard has a couple of clay golem bodyguards that follow him around until they are destroyed, so be it. I dislike the idea of upkeep unless it becomes fundamentally important to game balance. This is a sandbox, after all, and golems and such should be able to stick around even if their creator is "dead."
It will be interesting to see how magic regeneration works in the game, as if wizards really only had the number of spells per day that they have in the PFRGP, I think they would all want an army of minions so they could be of use after the first couple minutes of a fight.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It will be interesting to see how magic regeneration works in the game, as if wizards really only had the number of spells per day that they have in the PFRGP, I think they would all want an army of minions so they could be of use after the first couple minutes of a fight.
Well they are considering night and day cycles so you never know if its is reliant on that. I would assume a cooldown based spellcasting system might be easier. But, who knows we will have to wait and see.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I want to see the Golems in the PFO. Eventually I want to have my city guarded by Golems. The biggest thing I like about them in the PFRPG is no upkeep. The problem I see is people cranking out Golems and going city stomping. Sure Golems have a large time and monetary resource drain, but this is an MMO where people do not age in game and time only matters to those with a life. I say put a limit on the number of Golems you can control. This is beyond the normal you must work on the Golem 8 hours a day for 20 days or more. Therefore no adventuring for 20 or more days. Most Golems you run into in PFRPG have lost their masters and are just following the last orders given to them, or they are any of the low-level ones that went berserk.
The difference between the Conjurer and the Golem maker or Necromancer is that the Conjurer's minions disappear after a duration. The Golem and undead stay till they are destroyed. Yes, the undead you can create are weak, but 50 skeletons is tough to deal with on your own.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I personally completely disagree on the idea of a 1 time cost for a super powerful defender. It works great in a story where there are never more then 1-2 golum creators working for a side. In an MMO where 50+ golum creators could all work for one side and create a virtually unattackable city in which they don't even have to be present to defend.
There are 2 forms of golums I am in favor of.
1. Golums with fairly low create cost, but are fairly weak, IE at worse an even match in a 1v1 fight.
2. Golums with medium create cost, and very substantial upkeep costs. IE if it is strong enough to be even matched against 5 people, it should take on average 5 people gathering resources to maintain it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I personally completely disagree on the idea of a 1 time cost for a super powerful defender. It works great in a story where there are never more then 1-2 golum creators working for a side. In an MMO where 50+ golum creators could all work for one side and create a virtually unattackable city in which they don't even have to be present to defend.
There are 2 forms of golums I am in favor of.
1. Golums with fairly low create cost, but are fairly weak, IE at worse an even match in a 1v1 fight.
2. Golums with medium create cost, and very substantial upkeep costs. IE if it is strong enough to be even matched against 5 people, it should take on average 5 people gathering resources to maintain it.
Ya see, I respectfully disagree with those, maybe number 1 being okay if the golem in question was a weak construct type to begin with, but number 2 being too time consuming to even do an upkeep like that since the players will be hurting wallet and they will get bored just for the sake of upkeeping the golem which is why I said it might be a better idea that for the process of creation could be longer or shorter depending on the type, and, depending on the type created, requires more or less, not a medium cost with a high upkeep. Actually, remove the upkeep, that's a silly concept, just make it that you have to repair it after battles and costly.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yes, the repair costs, and time to repair the Golem. Not including Make Whole as a spell would increase the repair cost.
/quote In an MMO where 50+ golum creators could all work for one side and create a virtually unattackable city in which they don't even have to be present to defend./quote
Still for this that is a lot of resources required. Let us say that you get together 50 level 8 Golem makers and decide to make Flesh Golems. (Wood Golems are a 2,000 GP cost cheaper but require lv 12 just like Ice) Well, Flesh Golems cost 10,500 GP to make, and each one requires six different bodies. (one for each limb, torso, and brain) So, 50 *10,500 = 525,000 GP. 6 bodies* 50 Golems = 300 bodies if each body can only be used on one Golem, and 8 1/3 bodies if all of them have all the parts needed to contribute to 6 Golems. Note none of these bodies could have been raised by a necromancer and then destroyed. Lastly you need to be neutral, evil, or willing to take an alignment hit to make one.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I realise upkeep may not be the method used in PFRPG, but the reason I prefer it for an MMO setting is because it creates reasonable limits without using arbitrary rules (I hate arbitrary limits...limit to 3 pets? But why?...if I want to spend all my time making them happy, why can not I keep more than someone who spends no time trying to appease their pets?)
Take for instance the necromancer; imagine a scenario inwhich all undead required an "upkeep" of living, or recently living material to "feed upon". The lore behind this would be that the undead have a drive to absorb positive energy. If they do not get this positive energy in x amount of time, they become more and more feral...finally being entirely uncontrollable, perhaps even turning on their creator(s). The creation costs of "building" the undead creatures aside, there becomes a practical limit to the number of undead a necromancer can reasonably maintain...simply because he has to feed them. If, on the otherhand, the resources of the necromancer where to increase, say...if he were supported by an entire town or kingdom, it would greatly increase the number of undead they could reasonably maintain.
This dynamic is how I hope all minions are controlled. Pets and mounts need to be kept "happy". Henchmen must to be paid and kept "loyal".
The golem is a little trickier because in normal lore they do not require anything beyond their initial creation to continue to exist. I would balance this by requiring a massive investment of magic and resources in creation. I am not so much a fan of gold costs, because for me the adventure is gathering the necessary materials...the gold was intended to buy. So, I would balance everything by requiring both expensive/rare materials and huge amounts of initial magic (like requiring many people in a ritual) in the crafting. Finally, I would not bind the final product to a person, rather to an item such as a gem (maybe make it pulse like a heart for good lore effects *grin*). A player can carry any number of gems, giving them control over any number of golems, but can also loose them through normal inventory lose methods like death in PvP (or being pickpicketed?). He/she who holds a gem controls the golem. Golems whose gems have been lost or destroyed either die or simply cannot be controlled and rampage/wander until destroyed.
I like the idea someone else had about conjured creatures...the casting cost to mana is also an upkeep cost...you loose that chunk of mana to cast with as long as your conjured creature/effect is active. This allows you to summon several minor beings, or one big one...and you may not be able to do much else magical at the same time (based upon your mana stores...which would end up being a big part of a Conjurer specialized build).
And, of course, all of this is mixed with my very unpopular stance on magic, potentially very powerful but requiring RPG type slow-regeneration.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Still for this that is a lot of resources required. Let us say that you get together 50 level 8 Golem makers and decide to make Flesh Golems. (Wood Golems are a 2,000 GP cost cheaper but require lv 12 just like Ice) Well, Flesh Golems cost 10,500 GP to make, and each one requires six different bodies. (one for each limb, torso, and brain) So, 50 *10,500 = 525,000 GP. 6 bodies* 50 Golems = 300 bodies if each body can only be used on one Golem, and 8 1/3 bodies if all of them have all the parts needed to contribute to 6 Golems. Note none of these bodies could have been raised by a necromancer and then destroyed. Lastly you need to be neutral, evil, or willing to take an alignment hit to make one.
The thing with one time costs, is eventually any group can have them. With repairs, the more you have the less costly it is to keep them. (IE if you have 100 golums, odds of any of them getting worse then a minor cut before wiping a party, is very low. Obviously more golums = faster killing. so the higher the up front cost payed, the less you pay in the long run.
So it may take a year to create and set up... but once set up, keeping it going indefinently, is a huge problem.
Golems, in the tabletop, for their costs are comparatively wuss and have an easy/cheap wondrous item permitting anything and everything to carve them into giblets in short order (golembane scarab).
As long as the scarab in question is available, golems are hardly the ideal terror trooper. Especially clay and flesh golems with their built-in "will go beserk eventually" mechanism...
Then the city that was being defended by 300 clay/flesh golems is now being demolished by 300 clay/flesh golems. Hope you made plenty of scarabs ...
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Goblin Squad Member
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Golems, in the tabletop, for their costs are comparatively wuss and have an easy/cheap wondrous item permitting anything and everything to carve them into giblets in short order (golembane scarab).
As long as the scarab in question is available, golems are hardly the ideal terror trooper. Especially clay and flesh golems with their built-in "will go beserk eventually" mechanism...
Then the city that was being defended by 300 clay/flesh golems is now being demolished by 300 clay/flesh golems. Hope you made plenty of scarabs ...
Indeed, as far as needing consumables to keep them under control, perfectly reasonable over time cost/benefit method. A one time cost/benefit ratio, while works well in a game with wealth by level, somewhat falls apart in an MMO, where correct planning timing etc... can virtually permit any quanity of wealth at any time for any person.
Vs tabletop where wealth, level etc... Is all generally controlled by a DM, and opponents are set by a DM.
Hrmmmm...
'Cheap' golems, up to clay let's say, could simply have an inherent duration - up to 30 or 60 days. Stone, iron, mithril and adamantine are going to be increasingly cost-prohibitive to field by virtue of the sheer amount of materials required.
The most important component of these last 4 golems - and any other golems of similar capacity - is from the pnp game itself: only those involved in their creation may command them at all. Otherwise they just stand there unless attacked, to which a golem would react.
Makes 'high end' golems still less than ideal guardians for a city. Avoid the golems, although one could fashion a 'golem smashing unit' fitted with scarabs to waste them as soon as they awaken. Surround the golems with walls of stone, perch the smashers atop and waste them with crossbows. Rinse, lather, repeat.
Golems like these are not going to be used as passive guardians. They'd be best used as a response force en masse like armor, concentrated to smash the foe as quickly as possible whether in defense of a settlement or to augment the forces besieging a settlement.
Crafting lesser golems , even stone and iron, are likely to require certain 'minimum grades' of gathered material from which to fashion the body. Assuming a 1-1000 'grade scale' the minium grade for a run-of-the-mill golem might be 550. If you need to gather 10 pounds of ore to smelt into 1 pound of iron, the several tons of iron means that the golem crafter in question does not get to fashion *many* suits of full plate, heavy shields and gobs o' weapons that collectively are worth more coin to him that the iron golem is...