Goblinworks Founder
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DDOs (D&D Online) Art and Look was inspired by Wayne Reynolds Eberron Art, so it would not be unique.
I always thought DDO looked more like Todd Lockwoods art style. I'm not saying it wasn't inspired by Wayne's Eberron stuff. It just didn't cross over very well. Wayne's Pathfinder stuff is more stylized and would age a lot better than DDO IMO.
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I'll point out that rarely do art directors actually have time to do art themselves (and I'd like to see him keep on arting, as it were)
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Over-accessorise ALL the NPC designs!
No kidding, though I hope that image is a parody. His characters often have enough pouches and bling to embarrass a 40k Mehrine, when they don't go for the gratuitous cleavage and panty shots.
Any discussion of the art should at least let you see it, so links sprinkled throughout.
Still, when he reigns it, I like his stuff. Good stuff like this, this, and even this...it gives me the feeling that as long as he gets guidance and demands the same standards from his team as he does himself, it could be fantastic.
Well, ok, that middle one did invent muscles that don't exist, but at least it's not a Rob Loefield level of artistic license with anatomy. And in that last one, I want to get a scalpel, because Sajan has some kind of thing growing on his back, right side, near the base of the ribs. Human lats do not do that. Ok, neither does the skull, so it could be stylistic, but Feiya and Ameiko are both drawn to fairly normal human proportions.
I pray it doesn't wind up as fanservice-laden and over the top as WoW. This is how you draw a female adventurer who is attractive while keeping the Action Girl cred. This is an attempt to appeal to my inner 14 year old via lingerie model. The same go for his males; Sajan and Seltyiel certainly stretch, though might not break, what is anatomically possible.
So in conclusion, Wayne is actually damn talented and I think he can do a phenomenal job as long as he thinks more Seelah and Ezren in the character designs he pushes his artists to work on. They'll be blingy as all hell, but that's his style and it works when he does it well.
Goblin Squad Member
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Over-accessorise ALL the NPC designs!
Tetsuya Nomura says "Whaaaaaaaaaat?".
I'm actually fine with Seoni's design, the loose robed sorcerer is classic fantasy to me and his version is pretty tame compared to others I have seen. The outfit is far from scandalous (<3 Jeane) compared to 99% of the nerd bait cosplay I see at conventions. I see nothing wrong with sexy however as long as it isn't faceplammingly (yes, new word) sluty or not practical as clothing or armor. Seriously, wtf is that last girl thinking!
Lastly, I like his use of characterization in poses. The girls I've seen for far don't seem like they are checking themselves out in front of a mirror. Take Ameiko. Confident, sly, "Are you coming or what?" toothy smirk. Vs. "This pose hurts the HELL out of my back but it makes my breasts look good. Please look at me."
Wayne couldn't go wrong in my eye, I've already come from the worst. From personal observations alone I would guess 85% of the avatars in Tera Online are females. That's a bit of a record for me.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Wayne Reynolds on Art would be killer. They should also have Wallace Shawn voice a major NPC!
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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@ Waruko Ha, yes, well, when you compare Mr. Kim of that Exalted book's infamy and Mr. Nomura to WAR, Wayne Reynolds comes off looking terribly restrained and almost repressed.
@ Finn Not sure how much they can afford to blow much on major voice-acting talent. This is not a high-budget project, and major voice actors or TV/Film actors providing voices does not come cheap.
Still, Jennifer Hale would be my one voice-acting wish.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Waruko Ha, yes, well, when you compare Mr. Kim of that Exalted book's infamy and Mr. Nomura to WAR, Wayne Reynolds comes off looking terribly restrained and almost repressed.
@ Finn Not sure how much they can afford to blow much on major voice-acting talent. This is not a high-budget project, and major voice actors or TV/Film actors providing voices does not come cheap.
Still, Jennifer Hale would be my one voice-acting wish.
IKR? I swear Exalted art and the Scroll of Swallowed Darkness (I know it was a joke) seriously made me think that White Wolf was run by some seriously sexually repressed guys.
I also second Jennifer Hale.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I didn't know about Jennifer Hale before, but I'd definitely put in my vote for her as well!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Personally I hope if they do any major amount of voice acting they fill as much as they can via community auditions before they hire professional voice actors.
A lot of people in the community would do voice acting for free in order to get a chance to have it featured in-game.
As long as it was semi-quality I would far rather have that, then have them blow massive amounts on voice overs like SWTOR. Voice acting does make NPC interaction far more bearable (In-fact I've stopped reading quests entirely since I left TOR) but the quality of it does not make or break a game as long as you have someone able to say "That person's voice is annoying and cheesy, have someone else do those lines."
As far as Wayne Reynolds art style, it looks good, depending on how it is implemented. I'm all for some stylized realism, but keep cell shading away from any game not aimed at elementary schoolers.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Personally I hope if they do any major amount of voice acting they fill as much as they can via community auditions before they hire professional voice actors.
A lot of people in the community would do voice acting for free in order to get a chance to have it featured in-game.
As long as it was semi-quality I would far rather have that, then have them blow massive amounts on voice overs like SWTOR. Voice acting does make NPC interaction far more bearable (In-fact I've stopped reading quests entirely since I left TOR) but the quality of it does not make or break a game as long as you have someone able to say "That person's voice is annoying and cheesy, have someone else do those lines."
As far as Wayne Reynolds art style, it looks good, depending on how it is implemented. I'm all for some stylized realism, but keep cell shading away from any game not aimed at elementary schoolers.
I like the idea of community VAing but come on, you're being a little hard on cell shading. I'm not saying I would want it for PFO but it ages well. In fact we all know the more "realistic" graphics normally age the quickest.
Six years ago a guy told me, "All cell shading sucks and not ONE GAME was made using it was good."
I replied, "You want one game?"
"You can't..."
"Jet Grind Radio."
"..........."
"That's right, stfu."
You don't have to be a fan of cell shading but its not a style regulated to crappy games for kids.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I like the idea of community VAing but come on, you're being a little hard on cell shading. I'm not saying I would want it for PFO but it ages well. In fact we all know the more "realistic" graphics normally age the quickest.
Six years ago a guy told me, "All cell shading sucks and not ONE GAME was made using it was good."
I replied, "You want one game?"
"You can't..."
"Jet Grind Radio."
"..........."
"That's right, stfu."You don't have to be a fan of cell shading but its not a style regulated to crappy games for kids.
WindWaker and JetSetRadioFuture are the two cell shaded games I've played not on a handheld. I'm guessing JSRF and JGR are from the same series.
WindWaker was ok only because it was a Zelda, the art style only detracted from it. JSFR was one of those games that came free with my Xbox, around half an hour of gameplay before it was thrown into a deep dark corner never to be seen again.
I'm sorry, but the only way for a cell shaded game to be good is if the gameplay is good enough to outweigh my complete and utter hatred of the graphics. Everyone has their own taste in art. Cell shading just happens to be about as high up in my preference of graphical style as rap is in my preference of music genre. Which is to say if there is something I would hate more... I haven't encountered it yet.
Realism is nice because it satisfies a far broader audience, and because it's advanced far enough that it actually ages pretty well now too. Lord of the Rings Online still looks real good to me and that game is what? 2007?
I think stylized realism with the stylising based of Wayne Reynolds art would be perfect for PFO and have a broad appeal. Far broader than anything like cell shading.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You don't have to be a fan of cell shading but its not a style regulated to crappy games for kids.
I also second that statement, I for one am a fan of anime style games.
No I don't want pathfinder to be one, but I would say overgeneralization of cell shaded or cartoonish = kids game is a very poor statement.
Cel-shading fits with some types of games. Cartoonish or anime-esq does one thing well, Overall cartoonish graphics help one to drop all focus on physics and reality. In the case of anime that removal of focus can allow for more focus on the personalities, characters etc... In some games it allows for more extreme, unbelievable animations (IE 40' jumps etc...). Watching neo jump 40' from building to building in the matrix, more or less draws 90% of the viewers attention, while in an anime, during that 40' jump other story elements can happen without the 40' jump actually taking the full attention. One thing you may notice in comparison of say X-men comics/cartoons vs the hollywood movies, In most cases, the action and the storyline/characters in the less realistic mediums often happen simultaneously, while in a live action movie, they more or less happen in separate blocks of time.
Pathfinders physics are intended to be more or less internally consistent, which makes anime/cel-shaded/cartoonish graphics inappropriate for the medium, but that does not merit the generalization that the medium is never appropriate for anything for people over a certain age.
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Goblin Squad Member
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WindWaker and JetSetRadioFuture are the two cell shaded games I've played not on a handheld. I'm guessing JSRF and JGR are from the same series.WindWaker was ok only because it was a Zelda, the art style only detracted from it. JSFR was one of those games that came free with my Xbox, around half an hour of gameplay before it was thrown into a deep dark corner never to be seen again.
I'm sorry, but the only way for a cell shaded game to be good is if the gameplay is good enough to outweigh my complete and utter hatred of the graphics. Everyone has their own taste in art. Cell shading just happens to be about as high up in my preference of graphical style as rap is in my preference of music genre. Which is to say if there is something I would hate more... I haven't encountered it yet.
Realism is nice because it satisfies a far broader audience, and because it's advanced far enough that it actually ages pretty well now too. Lord of the Rings Online still looks real good to me and that game is what? 2007?
I think stylized realism with the stylising based of Wayne Reynolds art would be perfect for PFO and have a broad appeal. Far broader than anything like cell shading.
See I'm down with what your saying, like I said, not asking you to be a fan just a bit more fair. Which you just were. Sure you have a bias against it but you make it clear its a bias. I have a bias for it like Onishi. I like anime games and artistic games like Okami whose cell shading style was PERFECT for the ukiyo-e art style it was trying to emulate.
Oh and yes JGR is JSR. Grind was the US name, Set is the original name used in Japan.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I rather enjoyed XIII's aesthetic, but that may have been the music winning me over instead of the visuals. The comic-book cell-shaded style and little miniframes worked for me with the big, jazzy beats. I would protest that anime by no means has to have unrealistic physics, and Western pulp has certainly had works which would rival the most over-the-top of Japan's works. Like all styles, it has its place.
@ Andius Community VO may indeed work, Andius. I have no pretentious belief that this game is funded by EA and can afford to spend a massive budget on the voice work. Getting Ms. Hale would be, well, a wish. I'd take your suggestion and consider doing the same with music. Why not open up to the community and the folks who sell RPG soundtracks on Paizo.com? "We'll flash the name of your song and your group in exchange for letting us use it in the soundtrack." Heck, you could even offer the songs as a download in the cash shop.
That would allow you to change a modest expense (buying music) into a small but real commodity, and likely you could get more, new, ever-expanding libraries if artists want to put their music in the game and feel they would benefit from doing so. Some people would do it just to see their name on the playlist.
I have no idea if that's practical, but I doubt it's been done.